choice of ammunition?

[hansg/Ups]

There's been a lot of discussion in various gun journals re lack of stopping power of the 5.56x45 NATO M855/SS109 ammunition against
insurgents.I understand that M193[55grFMJ]don't penetrate structures.Having noted that,isn't one of the reasons[allegedly] for the
US's choice of the 5.56 is that it tumbles in flesh[better than a "through  and through" of a 30 caliber round]?
That said,is a civilian not under the Hague Convention restrictions OK to   use soft point or hollow point ammunition against "soft targets"?To be blunt,is the soft point or hollow point 5.56x45 a better[or at least: equal] "stopper"versus 30 caliber ball ammunition[be it 7.62x39,7.62x51 NATO,etc.]?
Thanks for the advice.

[Lloyd Smale]

if its against a soft target probably but if body armor or is involved no. Penetration is about non existant with soft nosed 556 Also dont count on 223 ball ammo tumbling. It may have done it in the original 1 in 12 barrels as it may not have stablized well but the animals ive shot with 223 ball had a tiny hole in and a tiny hole out. Bottom line is in the real world the 762 has it hands down over a 5.56

[Bigeasy]

In a military role, the 5.56 works well.  Even though it may not be a fast "stopper" usually once wounded, an enemy combatant is out of the fight.  Several others are tied up transporting and treating the wounded man, tying up enemy recources.

In a civillian role, as in self defense, usually you want to stop your enemy as fast as possible, before he can finish what ever he was doing that caused you to use deadly force in the first place.  That means stopping power - expanding bullets and deep penitration.  In my AR platform rifles I use for possible self defense, I keep them loaded with Barnes X bullets, the bullets designed to make the 5.56 a deer gun.  I figure this would give me a good combination of expansion and penitration, or "stopping power".  For what its worth, I have seen 5.56, 55 grain ball used twice on suspects by the agency I work for.  One man dropped immediately, the other ran about 50 yards, climbed a fence, then gave up.  Both were body hits, both survived.

Larry

[Lloyd Smale]

I do something real simular. my self defense ammo is loaded with nos partitions. they did quite a bit better in our pentration testing then the barns did. I havent shot anything alive with them but my buddy took 2 deer with them last year and they worked great.

In a military role, the 5.56 works well.  Even though it may not be a fast "stopper" usually once wounded, an enemy combatant is out of the fight.  Several others are tied up transporting and treating the wounded man, tying up enemy recources.

In a civillian role, as in self defense, usually you want to stop your enemy as fast as possible, before he can finish what ever he was doing that caused you to use deadly force in the first place.  That means stopping power - expanding bullets and deep penitration.  In my AR platform rifles I use for possible self defense, I keep them loaded with Barnes X bullets, the bullets designed to make the 5.56 a deer gun.  I figure this would give me a good combination of expansion and penitration, or "stopping power".  For what its worth, I have seen 5.56, 55 grain ball used twice on suspects by the agency I work for.  One man dropped immediately, the other ran about 50 yards, climbed a fence, then gave up.  Both were body hits, both survived.

Larry

[Bornsouthern34]

Bigeasy made a very valid point about taking an enemy out of the fight via wounding them. However, every bullet has a purpose and so you have to ask yourself what you intend to accomplish before you even think about choosing a bullet and in what caliber. If wounding is the objective then use a ball round in any caliber. If total destruction (like shooting prairie dogs) is your thing then choose something like a hollow point or polymer tipped round in a small caliber. Perhaps you need to penetrate steel, then get something with a tungsten core and buy a .416 Rigby or Barrets .50.

If you research the M-16, you will find many possible reasons the military went with the 5.56 over the .30 cal. However, I have never read that having a "tumbling bullet" as one of them.

[Bigeasy]

"I do something real simular. my self defense ammo is loaded with nos partitions. they did quite a bit better in our pentration testing then the barns did. I havent shot anything alive with them but my buddy took 2 deer with them last year and they worked great"


Really?  I have not tried the Nosler in .223, but just figured it would not penitrate as deep as the solid copper X bullet.  A good excuse to do a little testing this summer..lol  I have a buddy in Maine who is dying to try the .22 cal X bullet on moose this year if he gets a tag.  Figures a perfect broadside heart shot would work, and I bet it would.  Still, give me something with a little more kick...

Larry

[Bornsouthern34]

"That said,is a civilian not under the Hague Convention restrictions OK to   use soft point or hollow point ammunition against "soft targets"?" hansg/Ups

If a civilian is operating as a "combatant" as defined by the Geneva Conventions then they can not use that type of ammo. If you are talking about Blackwater, I believe they are defined as contractors and should have the same right to defend themselves as you and I.

[Bornsouthern34]

Remember Steve Irwin? It's not about size but where you place the shot!