So much for the weak little 9mm, I need a new gun.

[teddy12b]

I just saw this video the other day and I'm sure most of you have already seen this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdNZrfabisc

It's basically a couple idiots testing a bullet proof vest from about 10' away with a 9mm glock.  Sounds pretty smart already doesn't it...  Anyway the test subject seems to be about a 120 pounds soaking wet and just walks off a shot from a 9mm.  I knew the 9mm wasn't the biggest bullet in the world but I really thought it would at least knock that little idiot over.  I'm glad everyone is still alive, but still, what a couple of idiots.

Anyway, now I'm convinced that my 9mm is more of a keepsake than a home protection tool.

[Skunk]

My feeling about the 9mm is that you better have a high capacity clip. You'll need every round in it. But those boys in the video have to take the cake for being idiots. Pure stupidity.

[SHOOTALL]

I wouldnt get to worked up if the hit alone knocked him over it would have to knock the shooter over also wouldn't it ? equal but opposite action and all that stuff ?

[teddy12b]

I wouldnt get to worked up if the hit alone knocked him over it would have to knock the shooter over also wouldn't it ? equal but opposite action and all that stuff ?

I understand what you're saying, but it's not really right.  Knocking something over has a lot to do with the target having a higher center of gravity, balance, and leverage.  Last deer season I knocked a buck over flat but I was fine. 

[SHOOTALL]

so did i but the bullet penitrated the deer not just hit it . The vest spreads the shock much like the grip of your handgun spreads out the shock to your hand . In some of the defensive classes i have taken we watched actual shootings and very few people fell backward when shot most fell forward or to the side depending on the direction they were going when shot .
Alot of people don't fall at all and some don't realize they have been shot at all until told so.
When the bullet enters a deer or human and transfers energy thru the body instead of on the body things are different very different.

[spruce]

People (or animals) just aren't "knocked over" by small arms fire.  SHOOTALL summed it up well.  When hit in the central nervous system (brain/spine) they will just crumple to the ground or fall in the direction they happen to be leaning or moving.

The inventor of Second Chance body armor, Richard Davis, used to routinely shoot himself in the chest when he began marketing his vest back in the 70's.  He put on many, many demonstrations to police agencies and needless to say it was a spectacular and effective marketing ploy!

He used many different handguns, including .357 magnums and .44 magnums and was never knocked down while doing it.  Probably if you do some searches you can find some of his old videos.

[BrianU]

Spruce hit it right on the money.  If you deem your handgun unworthy because it fails to knock someone off their feet, be prepared to be disappointed with all common handgun calibers.  Over on Glocktalk.com, someone posted a couple links to reports from actual shootings and it was flat amazing at what the human body is capable of absorbing and still pose a very serious threat.  We are talking multiple center of mass hits with what is considered very good SD .40 and .45 ammo.  In both cases, drugs were not a factor.  Just plain rage and determination.  I'll see if I can find them tonight, very sober reading.

I too have hit deer that seemed to be knocked off their feet, but on the other hand, I can think of several that seemed to not notice the hit at all.  I remember a medium doe that took the full brunt of a 180 grain .30-06 hit through the front of the chest length-wise, with the bullet stopping in a rear quarter, and there was no noticeable immediate effect.  If anything, she seemed to run faster.

Brian

[Autorim]

I don't mean to disappoint you, but you are not going to "Knock down" any game animal (or human) with a bullet. The basic laws of physics apply here.

[Tiapan64]

When I shot my second wild pig, first one was with my 480, the second with my 500 mag, 60 yrds behind shoulder blade low center mass, he just looked up and trotted 30 yrds then humped up trying to breath and fell over, that was it. kicked a couple of times and was still. bullet went thru him like a knife thru hot butter, broke 2 ribs on entrance and 2 on exit, he knew something was wrong but he certainly didn't get knocked over or down.  Perhaps if I had shoulder shot him he would have fallen over right there, but I doubt he would have been thrown down by even the mighty 500 mag!! Just doesn't work like that! Oh btw, it was a 370 grain hard cast gas checked, with 41.6 grains of lil gun powdering it's butt!

[Tiapan64]

And I personally have a Witness 10 MM loaded with 180 grain silvertips for home protection and a .357 mag loaded with 125 grain HP.  The instructor that taught our weapons class told us 2 to the torso/chest and one to the head if the others didn't work. Hope I never have to try it out, but I do practice it at the range, pop, pop, pop! Course in a dark house it would be different than a lighted range!! most likely pop pop pop pop pop pop pop pop pop pop click click click, eeeewwwwww, what a mess!!!

[bilmac]

It will suprise you how accurately you can place shots just by pointing at across the room distances. We typically practice at much longer range than we will ever have to defend ourselves at. Pace off the actual distances you could be shooting in your house and do some shooting. It will probably be a great confidence builder.

[Mikey]

Teddy:  forget about a larger caliber.  The 9 will suffice, and has for many years.  The pistol in that video is, I believe, a 1911.  I also feel the bullet impacted the vest and skidded off the armor plate and into the man's chest.  In this instance the vest would have soaked up the majority of the energy from the impact and if you stop the video and look at the wound it looks as though the bullet may have penetrated on a bit of a 'keyhole'. 

Tiapan64 - I have never heard a instructor teach a class to advocate or teach shooting two to the chest and one to the head.  I'm not saying he didn't but he should have had the brains not to.  If you need to defend yourself, at night in your home, I seriously doubt you will have the time or presence of mind to shoot as he instructed and would not attempt it - in a home defense situation, at night in the dark, with whatever light source you have available you will have to concentrate on the largest mass the intruder presents and shoot for that, and I have never seen anyone who has already taken two to the center mass to still be standing there waiting for a head shot - we're not talking about that video with the one idiot (target) saying - oh yeah, that didn't hurt, now try one off my skull and lets see where that goes...  jmtcw.

[Glanceblamm]

Agreed with all posts. If you were thinking Hollywierd, what they do is to use a harness & line to pull the perpatrator backward with great force upon the shot.

[SHOOTALL]

mikey , i also had an instructor that said 2 to the chest , one to the head and if wearing body shoot for where the leg and body meet !
off the record of course .

[Tiapan64]

Teddy:  forget about a larger caliber.  The 9 will suffice, and has for many years.  The pistol in that video is, I believe, a 1911.  I also feel the bullet impacted the vest and skidded off the armor plate and into the man's chest.  In this instance the vest would have soaked up the majority of the energy from the impact and if you stop the video and look at the wound it looks as though the bullet may have penetrated on a bit of a 'keyhole'. 

Tiapan64 - I have never heard a instructor teach a class to advocate or teach shooting two to the chest and one to the head.  I'm not saying he didn't but he should have had the brains not to.  If you need to defend yourself, at night in your home, I seriously doubt you will have the time or presence of mind to shoot as he instructed and would not attempt it - in a home defense situation, at night in the dark, with whatever light source you have available you will have to concentrate on the largest mass the intruder presents and shoot for that, and I have never seen anyone who has already taken two to the center mass to still be standing there waiting for a head shot - we're not talking about that video with the one idiot (target) saying - oh yeah, that didn't hurt, now try one off my skull and lets see where that goes...  jmtcw.

This class was a Concealed handgun class, the instructor was an active swat team member from Amarillo Texas.  He came to Borger to teach the class. Very informative, took us thru the different steps of threats and thier assesment.  Learned alot in those 2 evenings and the range day was alot of fun.  I had been shooting for 30+ yrs so the range was simple. how anyone could miss at those ranges is beyond me...but the lady next to me using a snub nosed .38 was missing alot!!!  He didn't have us shoot for cert. like that 2 in the chest and one in the head.  But he did set up targets afterwards and showed us, and let us do it if we wanted to.  Nice gent and a very good marksman.  I would guess since the castle doctrine has been enacted in Texas, the rules of engagement have changed....I probably should take the class again to see how it has affected the methods of egagement. Haven't heard anyone say for sure.

[teddy12b]

I don't mean to disappoint you, but you are not going to "Knock down" any game animal (or human) with a bullet. The basic laws of physics apply here.

You didn’t disappoint me by saying the bullet didn’t knock over the animal.  He was completely broadside and got shot just a little high behind the shoulder and fell over sideways instantly right there.  Is there a more proper term, or should I say he slipped and fell over on a bullet right when I happened to pull the trigger? 

That pistol looked like a glock to me, but I’ve been wrong before.  I know Hollywood has great special effects, and I wasn’t expecting the guy to do a back flip or anything.  I just thought that from that distance it’d knock that little guy over.  I don’t think the bullet got into the guy.  I think the bullet sized hole came from the bruise & skin breaking from the impact of the bullet.  This idiot will probably have a scar and story to tell all the other hill billy's at the bar.

[jmayton]

Ok, just watched the video and that was off the scale on the stupid meter!  A couple of observations:  1. The pistol appears to be a Glock and they state it is a 9mm.  2.  It looked like it hurt a lot and still caused injury even with the vest on.

I've never seen an animal knocked over by being shot (except maybe a squirrel that was shot with a 30-06).  They get shot and fall over.  Sometimes they fall away from the shot, sometimes they crumple, sometimes they jump then fall, sometimes they run then fall.  It's not an exact science.  Yes, there is energy transferred, but it isn't enough to knock a deer or a human over...it just appears that way sometimes.  And, bullet construction is much more important than bullet diameter.  I shot a pig with some 200gr FMJ's out of my 1911 a while back and thought I was missing, but they were just going right through and kicking up dust on the other side.  In contrast, I've dropped them with one shot with a 155gr .40 HP.  So a well constructed 9mm will do the job.  It's more important to hit the target than it is to send big bullets it's direction.  High-energy misses don't stop whoever is trying to hurt you.  Always shoot what you can control and hit your target with.

[blhof]

I've got a Crimson trace on my M9 and practice with it enough that even turned off I can place a head or heart shot without aiming on a quick draw and fire.  There was an American Hunter show a few years back that had a young lady hunting elk with a rifle and shot one feeding at 40 or so yds and it kept on eating the guide tapped her shoulder and she shucked in another bullet and took aim as the bull crumpled forward.  I took a concealed carry course in Fl. many years ago with a crappy instructor that stated for our firing practice you Always say "halt I have a gun" before firing.  My first time up I fired then said it, he threw a fit and I said I had to get his attention first and in my house this is how I would do it.  He refunded me my money and said not to come back. 

[Mikey]

blhof:  "and I said I had to get his attention first and in my house this is how I would do it"..  My feelings exactly. 

[His lordship.]

There is no guaranteed Constancy with bullets dropping an attacker, I saw footage of a police officer shot through the shoulder with a .45ACP and he did not seem affected.  Look at the film taken of the attempted assasination of Pres. Reagan, John Hinckley used a short barreled .22 rimfire revolver and everyone who took a bullet went flying backwards, or dropped like a rock.

My old shooting buddy and I felt that the only potential weapon that would knock someone back would be an impact from a 1968 Buick going at least 30 miles per hour. 

[bilmac]

Everybody drooped but the Pres. He didn't know at first that he was hit. When they had him on the operating table he was joking about whether the doctors were Democrats or not.

[Casull]

Everybody drooped but the Pres. He didn't know at first that he was hit. When they had him on the operating table he was joking about whether the doctors were Democrats or not.

Yep, Ronald was the man.  I really miss that guy.

[Lloyd Smale]

very correct and it applys to rifles too and even big rifles. No gun will knock you over with maybe the exception of a 50bmg but id dont even know about that. Fast knockdowns occur when you hit the central nevous system and in that case it doesnt matter what cailber or bullet the results are usually the same. Guns kill by either stopping brain function with a direct brain hit or by making you leak blood. the faster the blood loss the faster death comes. I like the old analogy of hanging a 50 lb bag of feed so it can swing and shooting it with a 300 weatherby. Ive done it and the 300 will barely make the bag move. Not much chance its going to pick a 200 lb man off his feet and drive him to the ground. What you gain with a larger caliber handgun is the ablility to penetrate and when caliber increases so does the hole the animal bleads out of. To many people have stereotypes of people being shot on tv and blown off there feet. It just doesnt happen in real life.

People (or animals) just aren't "knocked over" by small arms fire.  SHOOTALL summed it up well.  When hit in the central nervous system (brain/spine) they will just crumple to the ground or fall in the direction they happen to be leaning or moving.

The inventor of Second Chance body armor, Richard Davis, used to routinely shoot himself in the chest when he began marketing his vest back in the 70's.  He put on many, many demonstrations to police agencies and needless to say it was a spectacular and effective marketing ploy!

He used many different handguns, including .357 magnums and .44 magnums and was never knocked down while doing it.  Probably if you do some searches you can find some of his old videos.

[Redhawk1]

Lloyd I was going to use the 50 BMG as well, it will not knock anyone or animal over.

There is not one thing wrong with a 9 mm, hell I carry a 380 as my CCW. And I also carry a NAA 22 Mag  a lot of times. To many people underestimate what a hole through the lungs or heart will do.

[Syncerus]

It's all about shot placement and bullet construction. Caliber is a much lesser concern.

[SHOOTALL]

if you don't think size matters try rowing to England in a 10 ft row boat

[John R.]

A lot of instructors teach 2 to the chest and one to the head. There is no point shooting someone in the same place time after time if they aren't reacting to it. If a perp is wearing body armour and doesn't react to 2 hits center mass, it's time to change tactics. Now I agree in the dark you hit what you can, but most places there is at least ambient light. Just my tcw.

[blhof]

My brother is a civilian photographer for the USAF, and gets to video many interesting demos; one was a secret service agent demonstrating the effectiveness of a 9mm against bullet proof glass and vests.  He used 30 round clips and ball ammo and fired into the same spot on a bullet proof glass window and had complete penetration in about 10 shots, he next placed a vest on a 5 gallon jug of red liquid and shot to the same spot till it sprayed red, also about 9 or 10 shots.  I've got a 40 round clip on my home defense pistol, so I won't be accused of reloading, as was tried in Miami a few years ago, thank goodness the coroner stated that he was dead with the 1st shot so they could only charge him with mutilation of a body and those weren't the charges he was being tried for.

[SHOOTALL]

And i did a job in the factory where they make bullet proof glass for the military and saw a film that was shot by a marine in an armored vehicle . He was shooting (film) the country side when some kind of armor piercing round impacted the window he was filming thru. after he got his self back togather after dropping the camera it showed the round imbeded in the window . They also had glass hit multi times with 20 mm , 50 cal and other weapons . Guess you have to pick your props to show what you want .
The ? is what would be protected with BP glass or vest let someone empty multi 30 round mags with out shooting back ?

[Tom W.]

Don't discourage Teddy from getting another handgun...Preferably one which designation starts with a .4something....