White Model 98 Elite Hunter .358 Magnum!

[Busta]

After the failure of turning my .45 cal Knight Disc Elite with the 1:30 twist into a .45/.358 Magnum, I thought I would give it a whirl in my .451 White M-98 Elite with the 1:20 twist.

It was real windy today, so I wasn't as concerned with the groups as I was getting the bullet to make round holes in the target. If anyone read my short report on trying to get the Knight to shoot the new Hornady 200 grain .358" FTX bullets, you will know what I am talking about. This picture may jog your memory?



As I said I just wanted to know if the 1:20 twist would stabilize these bullets, and the preliminary results look good. These bullets loaded very hard, much harder than the Knight did. I used the White with 777 FFFG powder (over 1 year old) and the #11 breech plug with RWS 1075 Plus caps. After shooting Blackhorn exclusively for the last year, I really have become spoiled. I sure didn't miss the swabbing after EVERY shot that 777 requires. I actually was so used to not having to swab, that after the first shot I loaded the powder and bullet without swabbing (not intentional), and it was all I could do to get the bullet within a quarter inch of the witness mark. I ended up wasting a bull with that shot, because I didn't want to shoot it into the first group that I had started, I'll point it out later. Now that I know this twist will stabilize the bullets, next time out will be with Blackhorn 209 and the 209 primer conversion.

Just so you know what bullet/sabot combination I was using I added a pic. The Hornady 200 grain .358" FTX and Precision Rifle orange .357" x .45 Sabots.



This is the overall target and first group, I started in the middle with 100 grains 777 FFFG (pink group), my second shot that I forgot to swab (serious crud ring) was actually shot down in the lower left bull just to see where it would hit. Shots 3 and 4 completed the group. Like I said I wasn't as concerned with the groups, as it was very windy with strong gusts, so I wasn't dissapointed with a 2" group, at least they were round holes and was something I could work with.




After seeing that I was actually going to get round holes, the second group lower right (blue) was shot with 125 grains 777 FFFG, it came in right around 1-3/4" and considering the wind I am happy with that.



Now knowing that it would stabilize at 100 and 125 grains, I decided to go down to 80 grains 777 FFFG, upper left group (orange), it came in at about 1-1/8", very happy with that.



The last group (yellow) in the upper right was a control group, 80 grains 777 FFFG and a .40 caliber bullet that shoots decent in the White, it came in at about 1-1/2", so considering the wind and the old powder, I think I have room to work with these .358" bullets in this rifle.

I also ran one through my little torture test, it did very well IMO. It did much better than the 300 grain .430" HP/XTP did that is for sure. I wouldn't have a problem shooting anything in NA with it, that is for sure.






I think the perfect rifle to shoot these bullets just might be the White .410 caliber with its 1:16 twist, the only problem is nobody makes a sabot that could be used.

So, now all we need to do is get Knight and T/C to realize that there last big .45 caliber explosion that started with the 1:20 twist would have been just about perfect for this bullet. It really is to bad that there still were not some of those barrels with the 209 ignition still around. Everyone was trying to push short and light pistol bullets at break neck speeds out of them and it didn't work. They would have shot long conicals very well, or in this case long sub-caliber bullets at magnum velocities. I sure wish I could find some of the Knight Disc 1:20 barrels, with 209 ignition and Blackhorn 209 powder, this would be the new magnum long range combination.

I didn't run any over the chrono, but will make it a point when I get out and shoot them with Blackhorn 209. The only problem with this White is the plunger action, non-sealed breech, and non-recommended breech plug, but the twist is right. After starting to shoot, I wish I would have just started with the 209 conversion and used Blackhorn 209 powder. Half of my time was swabbing out that nasty crud ring, I could have shot at least twice as much, maybe three times as much with Blackhorn 209, and the bullets probably would have loaded easier too. Live and learn!

[grouse]

Very nice detailed report Busta. I tried getting a 1/22 twist for my 45 Disc Elite from Green Mountain. They wont make me one. I'm actually thinking about a 1/22 0r even 1/20 replacement barrel for my savage. I'm not sure yet. Del might make you the sabots for a price, i'm sure for that White your talking about.

[AndyHass]

Thanks, this is an excellent report.  I think one of the 1:20 guns and this bullet in a .45 would be the best possible option for a 300 yd gun.  Now that I'm playing around with longer ranges I'm leaning towards switching to the 325gr .458 FTX for better energy deliver but I'm still interested in this .358 bullet.

Looks like the 1:20 guns were just a good idea ahead of their time -- and with limited application at which they would excel.  I know some tried the Dead Center bullets, the longest-for-caliber then available, and could not get them to shoot well even in the 1:20s.  However I think part of the problem there might have been that the DCs are velocity-limited and perhaps they were keeping the charges too weak.

The other thing I have been told (but not experienced personally as I have never owned a 1:20 gun) is that the White barrels seem to be more forgiving than the 1:20 45s made briefly by other manufacturers -- perhaps differences in the way the rifling was cut or its design.

Man, between BH209's reported velocities and some of the new 200gr bullets I'm getting the itch for a .45 now...

[Busta]

Andy,

The Whites have always had very good barrels. The M-98 has a (7 land and groove) Bo Clerke barrel, the older S-91 and my G-Series have (6 land and groove) Wilson barrels. Of course there were other barrels in the beginning, and right at the last end they were using Criterion barrels by Krieger. I have no clue what these will do at longer ranges yet, but hope to get that figured out soon. The sabot is going to be the weak link here, kinda like shooting a .40 cal bullet out of a .50, but compound that due to the extra bullet length for the same weight. This is all preliminary and I need to find the sweet spot with regards to velocity. The 1:20 twist might not be the final answer either, but it sure is better than the 1:30. I would be curious as to see if the 1:28 T/C, CVA, or Traditions .45 barrels would stabilize these?

[burntmuch]

Busta whats the length on the FTXs

[AndyHass]

Andy,

The Whites have always had very good barrels. The M-98 has a (7 land and groove) Bo Clerke barrel, the older S-91 and my G-Series have (6 land and groove) Wilson barrels. Of course there were other barrels in the beginning, and right at the last end they were using Criterion barrels by Krieger. I have no clue what these will do at longer ranges yet, but hope to get that figured out soon. The sabot is going to be the weak link here, kinda like shooting a .40 cal bullet out of a .50, but compound that due to the extra bullet length for the same weight. This is all preliminary and I need to find the sweet spot with regards to velocity. The 1:20 twist might not be the final answer either, but it sure is better than the 1:30. I would be curious as to see if the 1:28 T/C, CVA, or Traditions .45 barrels would stabilize these?

Wish I could tell you.  I have some PRecision Rifle duplex sabots left over, I could try those in my .50, but they didn't shoot well with the .357 bullets supplied in my Omega though they did in the old Traditions I sold (both 1:28).

The REAL winner would be a Savage, rebarreled with a .358 barrel, then swaging/knurling these .358s to shoot in that sabotless.  Even staying with BH209 and not smokeless I bet you could get 2500fps or better.  Just for fun I ran the numbers, and the trajectory would blow out of the water anything I have acheived (or could acheive) with my .50 and any bullet/powder combination out there.

[Busta]

Busta whats the length on the FTXs

burntmuch,

The 200 gr .358" FTX is 1.081" +/- .001", much longer than the .40 caliber 200 gr SST (0.972") or Shockwave (0.940"). The SST's have a sharp point, the shockwaves have a more rounded point, that is the difference.

Andy,

I'll try to make it a point to run some accross the chronograph next time out, the way they were tumbling out of the Knight I was a little afraid of killing my chronograph.