Author Topic: what did i do wrong?  (Read 767 times)

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Offline cridertj

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what did i do wrong?
« on: April 20, 2009, 02:16:27 PM »
I am new to reloading rifle shells and had something happen to me and don’t know what i did wrong. I loaded some 204 rounds and took them out and shot them liked them so i wanted more i set the dies up the same way and loaded about a 100 rounds every thing looked good and then i went to shoot some of them an had about 25 of them that would not chamber i got to looking at them and right were the casing goes from big to taper for the neck i had a little bulge or crease what ever you call it and don’t know why my settings stayed the same i put a little lube in the bullet hole and all the cases were under max length .should i have trimmed all of them to the same length or would this have mattered?

Offline jhalcott

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Re: what did i do wrong?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2009, 02:48:09 PM »
 Sounds like you crimped the cases when they were a bit long. You should always check the length of the cases before you start loading them. As the expander plug CAN pull the case longer,  lube the inside of the neck with graphite or some other lube that will NOT hurt the powder. Check the length after sizing.
  Another cause of this bulge is the crimp happens BEFORE the bullet is fully seated. The entire neck is then pushed down into the case. It is possible to pull the bullet ,salvage the powder and "kill" the primer with a drop or 2 of oil. Resizing the case and trimming them to the MINIMUM length. The oil will have to be neutralized before repriming is done. A boiling water bath will do this quickly. Air dry over night for safety.
  You aren't the first to do this and will NOT be the last!

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: what did i do wrong?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2009, 04:31:00 PM »
I agree , what has happened is that your cases have grown just enough from the last time you seated bullets , most likely from FL sizing and the expander ball pulling on the neck , brass pulls and flows at diffrent rates , so thats why only part of the cases have this problem .

stimpy
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Offline 3006bluffhunter

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Re: what did i do wrong?
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2009, 04:53:43 PM »
I'm new to reloading also and did that to about 5 or 6 cases! I bought a bullet puller this last weekend !recycled the powder and the primers and chucked the brass! Someone said you will need a bullet puller someday! They're right i did! ::)

Offline Sweetwater

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Re: what did i do wrong?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2009, 05:07:52 PM »
+1 on the sizing issue and the bullet puller.

Bullet pullers are a handy tool.
There are a multitude of reasons to want to pull a bullet, or a bunch of them.

I do have a question, where we are guiding new handloaders with a case sizing problem.
If we are taking the wrinkles out of a primed case, don't we simply:
 
a) pull the decapping pin out of the decapping rod and proceed as usual or;
 
b) remove the decapping rod, resize, insert decapping rod just far enough to expand the neck and carry on? After all, we are only doing a few cases, so time is not a real factor here.

In my 40+ years I've yet to run into a situation where I felt I had to kill a primer with oil.
Regards,
Sweetwater

Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway - John Wayne

The proof is in the freezer - Sweetwater

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: what did i do wrong?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2009, 05:15:49 PM »
I've deprimed hundreds of live primers for various reasons, never had one pop yet, go easy on the press handle and wear hearing and eye protection just in case, I use a  Lee universal decapper so sizing doesn't happen at the same time tho. If you think it's easy to kill a modern primer, read the info below. ;)

Tim

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/killprimers.shtml
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Offline Steve P

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Re: what did i do wrong?
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2009, 09:28:41 AM »
Nothing wrong with the sizing process.  Problem is the seating die is not adjusted properly.  Most die companies machine their dies so they have a taper or slight roll crimp.  This is very obvious in dies for ammo shot in tubular magazine or in heavy recoiling loads.  The crimp holds the bullet in place so it does not move under recoil within the magazine. 

Adjusting a crimping die is very tedious and requires your brass to be trimmed to the same length.  In a round like the 204 that has minimal, if any, recoil you don't have to do any crimping so set up is not near as critical.  Get a Lee case trimmer and cutter and you will be set in the event you will need to trim, but likely will not get to use your new trimmer until about the 3rd or 4th firing when brass finally stretches enough to be at trim length.

As stated before, pull your bullets, and dump the powder.  No need to pull the primer.  Pull the decapping stem and pin out of your sizing die.  Use a minute amount of imperial sizing die wax on the outside of your brass and run your brass up into your sizing die to remove that bulge at the shoulder.  Wipe your brass off and get ready to reload.

Take your seating die, and untighten the lock ring.  Spin it way up the die body and leave it there for now. Also take the seating stem and back it out most of the way.  Take a sized, but uncharged brass and put it in your press.  Screw your seating die down until you feel it come into contact with the brass.  If the brass is properly sized, the very tip of the neck should be making the contact in the die.  Back off the die 1/4 turn and try another brass.  Turn the die back a 1/4 turn to see if the next brass makes contact.  Should be close.  What you are looking for is approximate level of the die when it makes contact with the brass.  Since you don't have to do any crimping, find that spot where the die makes contact with your brass, unscrew the seating die 1/2 to 1 full turn, and screw your locking ring down.  Tighten the locking ring and you should not bulge any more cases with the die.  You should have sufficient room to let your brass grow a little without doing the bulging.

Now you need to seat your bullet.  In my die boxes, I keep dummy rounds (no powder or primer) with each of the bullets that I shoot in my gun.  I make up the dummy round by barely seating a bullet in a dummy case, and then smoking it with a birthday candle or covering it with ink from a sharpie or similar pen.  I check the dummy round in my gun and see if the bullet touches into the rifling.  If it does, it will leave scratches in the ashes or ink on the bullet.  I check the length of the scratches and turn the seating stem down a little.  Slowly adjust your die so your bullet is just shy of the rifling.  Once you have the dummy round, if you have to re-adjust your die, you just put the dummy in the press and turn the seating stem down until it makes contact with the bullet.  

Depending on the type of ammo you are loading, and the gun you shoot them in, you may have to adjust your bullet seating a little differently to make other accomodations.  Some bullets in my 30-30 are not even close to the rifling.  I have to seat them deeper in the case in order for the loaded round to cycle thru my magazine.  Same with my -06.  Bullets are not close to the rifling because I have to seat the bullets deeper in the case so they will fit in the mazagine so I can carry more ammo than a single shot. 

In summary, bulging at the case shoulder is from the die trying to over-crimp a bullet.  That shoulder, especially on the steeper shouldered brass, is the weakest link when seating a bullet.  Screw your die up so no crimp is being attempted by the die and set your bullet seating depth.  You should be golden until your brass is really stretched and by then, you should be trimming.

Good luck!

Steve  :)
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline jhalcott

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Re: what did i do wrong?
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2009, 09:42:02 AM »
 You guys are correct about the need to kill a primer not being neccessary MOST OF THE TIME! I HAVE seen a primer"shoot" a sizer stem thru a copper water pipe. It is a safety issue and I have done the resizing with out killing the primer as Sweetwater has said. BUT the safety issue is STILL there! I am frugal(cheap) and hate to toss a piece of brass or a good primer, even though the cost is much less than a set of dies(OR a finger/eye). I figured that the gentleman is a NEW reloader and will learn all the short cuts in due time. MEAN WHILE, I will give him all he safest ways to do things I know. Many of us "old timers" have little tricks that "work" but aren't what we were taught when we started.

Offline epanzella

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Re: what did i do wrong?
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2009, 01:25:18 PM »
I am new to reloading rifle shells and had something happen to me and don’t know what i did wrong. I loaded some 204 rounds and took them out and shot them liked them so i wanted more i set the dies up the same way and loaded about a 100 rounds every thing looked good and then i went to shoot some of them an had about 25 of them that would not chamber i got to looking at them and right were the casing goes from big to taper for the neck i had a little bulge or crease what ever you call it and don’t know why my settings stayed the same i put a little lube in the bullet hole and all the cases were under max length .should i have trimmed all of them to the same length or would this have mattered?
The other posts covered most of the possibilities assuming the problem is happening in the seating die. The following only applies if the bulge is happening in the sizing die. Are you using benchrest dies that have the expander button up high near the the neck portion of the die? If so, if you have the expander set at the high end of the limit, the longer cases ( even if still within spec) will bulge near the shoulder as the sizing ball and the case neck can't go into the neck portion of the die together. If this is the case, turn the rod clockwise to lower the expander ball a bit and it should fix the problem.    

Offline smith85619

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Re: what did i do wrong?
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2009, 08:04:31 AM »
Nothing wrong with the sizing process.  Problem is the seating die is not adjusted properly.  Most die companies machine their dies so they have a taper or slight roll crimp.  This is very obvious in dies for ammo shot in tubular magazine or in heavy recoiling loads.  The crimp holds the bullet in place so it does not move under recoil within the magazine. 

Adjusting a crimping die is very tedious and requires your brass to be trimmed to the same length.  In a round like the 204 that has minimal, if any, recoil you don't have to do any crimping so set up is not near as critical.  Get a Lee case trimmer and cutter and you will be set in the event you will need to trim, but likely will not get to use your new trimmer until about the 3rd or 4th firing when brass finally stretches enough to be at trim length.

As stated before, pull your bullets, and dump the powder.  No need to pull the primer.  Pull the decapping stem and pin out of your sizing die.  Use a minute amount of imperial sizing die wax on the outside of your brass and run your brass up into your sizing die to remove that bulge at the shoulder.  Wipe your brass off and get ready to reload.

Take your seating die, and untighten the lock ring.  Spin it way up the die body and leave it there for now. Also take the seating stem and back it out most of the way.  Take a sized, but uncharged brass and put it in your press.  Screw your seating die down until you feel it come into contact with the brass.  If the brass is properly sized, the very tip of the neck should be making the contact in the die.  Back off the die 1/4 turn and try another brass.  Turn the die back a 1/4 turn to see if the next brass makes contact.  Should be close.  What you are looking for is approximate level of the die when it makes contact with the brass.  Since you don't have to do any crimping, find that spot where the die makes contact with your brass, unscrew the seating die 1/2 to 1 full turn, and screw your locking ring down.  Tighten the locking ring and you should not bulge any more cases with the die.  You should have sufficient room to let your brass grow a little without doing the bulging.

Now you need to seat your bullet.  In my die boxes, I keep dummy rounds (no powder or primer) with each of the bullets that I shoot in my gun.  I make up the dummy round by barely seating a bullet in a dummy case, and then smoking it with a birthday candle or covering it with ink from a sharpie or similar pen.  I check the dummy round in my gun and see if the bullet touches into the rifling.  If it does, it will leave scratches in the ashes or ink on the bullet.  I check the length of the scratches and turn the seating stem down a little.  Slowly adjust your die so your bullet is just shy of the rifling.  Once you have the dummy round, if you have to re-adjust your die, you just put the dummy in the press and turn the seating stem down until it makes contact with the bullet.  

Depending on the type of ammo you are loading, and the gun you shoot them in, you may have to adjust your bullet seating a little differently to make other accomodations.  Some bullets in my 30-30 are not even close to the rifling.  I have to seat them deeper in the case in order for the loaded round to cycle thru my magazine.  Same with my -06.  Bullets are not close to the rifling because I have to seat the bullets deeper in the case so they will fit in the mazagine so I can carry more ammo than a single shot. 

In summary, bulging at the case shoulder is from the die trying to over-crimp a bullet.  That shoulder, especially on the steeper shouldered brass, is the weakest link when seating a bullet.  Screw your die up so no crimp is being attempted by the die and set your bullet seating depth.  You should be golden until your brass is really stretched and by then, you should be trimming.

Good luck!

Steve  :)


Excellent post Steve,

I reloaded some .375 Ruger the other day and with the heavy recoil that this round produces, a crimp is necessary.  I had to adjust the seating die so that if all cases were not trimmed to the same length, this bulge would have happened without a doubt.  my question is, how do you know you have enough crimp while you are reloading without taking a few to the range and testing them?  I don't think I can get any more crimp on these without bulging the shoulder of the case so I hope it's enough.
If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you.

Offline Steve P

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Re: what did i do wrong?
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2009, 08:56:48 AM »
On a bullet with a cannelure, adjust the die to seat the bullet with the cannelure just inside the neck.  My rule of thumb is to check with my fingernail.  If I can run my fingernail around the tip of my brass and barely feel the cannelure ticking on my nail, I am about right.  You should be able to see a small gap between the tip of the brass and the cannelure.  I adjust my crimping die to just close that gap.  You don't have to be super tight, just enough so your case mouth is gripping into the bullet .001-.002".  Depending on the brass and the bullet, sometimes this looks like the deburred and sharp edged brass has been barely rounded and pushed into the bullet.

Some of the really heavy recoiling guns may still move the bullet a little.  Adjust your seating die 1/32 to 1/16th of a turn down when you get home and re-crimp any unfired round to get another .001" or so of grip.

If you are hunting dangerous game, the rule of thumb is NEW ammo or fresh reloads in the magazine and in the chamber.  After any firing, any unfire rounds get taken out and put into "plinking" or "sighting in" boxes.  This way you never have a round that has taken multiple recoil impacts sitting in your magazine.

Similar process for cast bullets, but ROLL that brass into the crimp groove so you have a nice rounded case mouth.

You notice that I can see the gap AFTER I have seated the bullet.  That is because I seat the bullet in one step and come back thru again and crimp the bullet in a seperate step.  Trying to roll a crimp into the cannelure on a moving bullet is about equal to trying to enter a moving car.  It just makes more sense and is much easier if it is stopped.

Adjust the crimp on your die.  That is the most important part of the adjustment.  Pick up a washer at your local hardware store, or if you have 38/357 or 44spec/44mag dies, use the washer supplied.  Put the washer under the die and screw it down in your press.  Adjust the seating stem to seat your bullets.  Only takes a few tries and you can adjust that cannelure or crimp groove to be at the tip of your case mouth.  Seat all of your bullets.  Now unscrew the die, take the washer out, unscrew the seating stem so it is all the way up, and put your die back in the press without the washer.  If you had it adjusted before, it should be ready to quickly run your reloads thru to complete the crimp.

Good luck and have fun with your reloading.

Steve :)
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline smith85619

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Re: what did i do wrong?
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2009, 08:31:07 AM »
thanks Steve, that's some good stuff!
If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you.