Author Topic: War Crimes  (Read 8592 times)

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Offline Oldshooter

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War Crimes
« on: April 23, 2009, 02:58:56 AM »
It looks as though there may be some prosecution of Bush advisors for giving their opinion to the President to use "torture" tactics on enemy "combatants" at Gitmo!

Would some of you law dogs, and Military folk want to comment on the ramifications of that controversial decision!

What effect will that have on future administrations ?

Ollie North says this will be devastating  for years to come, and will be used by our enemies!

I guess Odrama does not think he will leave office, in my opinion he already has some legal answering to do, like Treason, for example, for letting this info out in the first place!

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Offline LONGTOM

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2009, 03:17:34 AM »
At least we don't cut their heads off!!!
The poor things.
It's war, what the heck.
They may call it by other terms but if our guys are fighting and dieing than it is WAR!!!
We are such a bad a$& country.
Give me a break!

I am so sick of the world looking down their noses at us.
They don't like the way we do things but when push comes to shub who do they call on for help?



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Offline Questor

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2009, 03:22:34 AM »
If they do, then this will start a cycle that will continue into future administrations.
Safety first

Offline hunt-m-up

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2009, 03:46:21 AM »
At least we don't cut their heads off!!!
The poor things.
It's war, what the heck.
They may call it by other terms but if our guys are fighting and dieing than it is WAR!!!
We are such a bad a$& country.
Give me a break!

I am so sick of the world looking down their noses at us.
They don't like the way we do things but when push comes to shub who do they call on for help?



LONGTOM


I would have to agree, I would say we spared them from what they really deserved.
But if they choose to take this route, I'm sure we could find a whole trail of people on both sides of the aisle who could be held "accountable" for this.
I would think his homeland security "idiot" is giving him enough grief at this time that they would want to let this one lie.
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Offline Cement Man

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2009, 03:53:35 AM »
I didn't read the CIA documents that are referred to as giving absolute evidence of the specific information gleaned and preventing subsequent terrorist attacks, but from reports it appears that they are accurate and authentic.  I'm glad my family was safer because of this and I think it was justified.  

9/11 was and is quite real for me as a close friend was lost in the WTC.  A little controlled and non-injurious help to encourage these terrorists to be more forthcoming with information to prevent other massacres is a lot more civilized than what these lunatics have done to innocent people.
When someone wants to kill you and yours - fall to your knees and put your head down.  When somebody sucker-punches you and breaks your nose - apologize for being there.  You wouldn't want to be "arrogant".

Prosecuting are own (who were protecting us) is lunacy. 
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POLITICIANS SHOULD BE LIMITED TO TWO TERMS - ONE IN OFFICE AND ONE IN PRISON.... Illinois already does this.

Online magooch

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2009, 04:10:20 AM »
The left lunatic fringe is not out to get Bush advisors--at least not the little guys.  They want Dubya himself, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfelt, and the former AG's blood. 

It's just all too obvious that the halfrican has to do something to keep the lunies that are just a smidge left of him from going completely nuts, but he doesn't know what to do.  I love it.  You left-wingers, keep the heat on BHO--pull those strings and make him dance.  He may yet turn out to be very entertaining.
Swingem

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2009, 05:24:56 AM »
They should not prosecute at this time.

..TM7

TM7 does that mean you think they should in the future or not at all?
No prodding here, I am just curios.

Quote
CIA documents that are referred to as giving absolute evidence of the specific information gleaned and preventing subsequent terrorist attacks

That's what Cheney says should be exposed! and then determine where to go from there. Obviously he knows something of which he speaks.

 I am of the mind that when someone attacks this country and kills innocent civilians then they get what they get "death" would be good after they are forced to tell any and everything they know, if then they still have some value then keep them alive(just alive) to be of more assistance.

 This administration will be setting a deadly precedent, that might end up biting them in the behind in the future. Not to mention the Dem's. in the senate and house that are urging this prosecution, seems they knew all along what was up and were briefed about it previously.

Now there is something constructive that may come from this....."enemy combatants " may not make it to captivity as much in the future, if you get my drift !
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2009, 06:30:07 AM »
I think the ones who got/gets the information that saved/saves American lives should get metals , gold ones ! Don't give a da-- how they got/get it . If they skinned some sob alive to save Americans so be it . It take a brave American to get the information taking them to court is pure BS .
 I really can't see having a law that stops us from giving what we get !

To hurt a few and save many is good much like a sniper works whats the difference ?

War is not political correctness its hell !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline dukkillr

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2009, 07:10:44 AM »
The issue with detainees is an interesting one and one that didn't have an easy answer (despite what you may read here and other places where crazy ideologues rant).  The problem is/was that we didn't want them in civilian courts as common criminals, and we didn't want them covered under the Geneva Conventions as POWs.  There were implications to either route that were less than optimal.  So instead we simply made up a new procedure by which we made all new rules for detention.  Those rules essentially were that we could ignore any and all other rules, and do whatever we wanted.

To me, it did stink of contrary to American principals.  It was the easy way out.  I believe the prisoners should have been either criminals or POWs, probably criminals.  They could have had trials (since obviously we have evidence that their guilty otherwise we wouldn't be holding them, right?) and sent to jail.  That’s the American system.  Unfortunately that didn't happen. And those people were never given the same rights all other US prisoners are given and thus the whole torture thing.

To me, one should embrace the Constitution, even when it makes life more difficult, or perhaps costs lives.  Once you allow yourself to ignore it for some justification, it's simply too easy to make new justifications each time you want to skip over someone or something's rights.

Now, as to the prosecution of ex-officials... I have a hard time seeing that go anywhere.  I assume that acted in good faith and interpreted the law as they saw it.  Baring fraud (and I have heard no indication that this could be fraud) I would see it as two competing legal theories, one of which was adopted, but the other of which isn't necessarily wrong.  I bet the saber rattling will settle down and we will move on as a country.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2009, 07:26:25 AM »
I do not see the torture issue the same as the detainees , yes some may have been tortured but others have also . And i don't consider it a rant when you have an enemy doing what ever it can to destory you . When one speaks of crazy and says that we must allow our own people to die so that those trying to destory us can have the same freedoms as us ( the freedoms they wish to destory ) under the Consitution ( again that they wish to destory ) THAT MY FRIEND IS CRAZY .
If we really wish to abolish torture then we should start with lawyers and their twisting of right and wrong as it is pure torture to the rest of us .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline dukkillr

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2009, 07:35:42 AM »
I do not see the torture issue the same as the detainees , yes some may have been tortured but others have also . And i don't consider it a rant when you have an enemy doing what ever it can to destory you . When one speaks of crazy and says that we must allow our own people to die so that those trying to destory us can have the same freedoms as us ( the freedoms they wish to destory ) under the Consitution ( again that they wish to destory ) THAT MY FRIEND IS CRAZY .
If we really wish to abolish torture then we should start with lawyers and their twisting of right and wrong as it is pure torture to the rest of us .
And certainly if one doesn't want them in US criminal courts they would fit fine in the system as POWs.  But the idea that we can capture another countries citizens on a foreign field and hold them indefinitely without ever assigning them any status should scare everyone.  Guess who else could be declared an, "enemy combatant" and thrown in a dungeon forever?  Political dissidents, ex-pats, anyone we really don't like.  That's not the principal America was founded on.

Could you cite me the section of the Constitution that clearly spells out what is and is not torture?  I was not aware that it existed.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2009, 07:57:36 AM »
There is not one that i know of . Like i said torture is one thing and holding is another .Maybe you can point out the part of the Consitution that addresses enemy combatants . I have no problem holding them . I do not agree they should enjoy the freedoms they wish to destory . You say POW's , then if we call them that - are we at war with the countries they hail from ? If not then who do they fight for ? A religion ? Then is the religion like the Federal govt and each country like a state ? I find it very hard to justify giving them the freedoms and securties of our system when they don't believe in it or allow our people the same .
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Offline stubshaft

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2009, 08:37:53 AM »
There is not one that i know of . Like i said torture is one thing and holding is another .Maybe you can point out the part of the Consitution that addresses enemy combatants . I have no problem holding them . I do not agree they should enjoy the freedoms they wish to destory . You say POW's , then if we call them that - are we at war with the countries they hail from ? If not then who do they fight for ? A religion ? Then is the religion like the Federal govt and each country like a state ? I find it very hard to justify giving them the freedoms and securties of our system when they don't believe in it or allow our people the same .


Very succinct and well put.   It echoes my sentiments exactly. +1
If I agreed with you then we would both be wrong.

Offline hunt-m-up

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2009, 08:50:20 AM »
These individuals call for special circumstances as they are not enemy combatants covered under the Geneva Convention, or do we just classify them with our run-of-mill mass murderers? In that case we should set up "old sparky" of Nebraska fame and fry them.

The precedence set goes beyond our legal system and into a whole other realm of our status in the world and do we want others to continue to take these shots at us?

My opinion, this was a nip in the bud strategy that worked for the most part and would have still had there been follow through. No, there wasn't an easy answer, but while the great minds set about pondering this, others admirably took decisive action to defend our country. Even mentioning prosecuting those involved in this is a BS witchhunt from a very poor Monday Morning QB currently in power.
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Offline petemi

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2009, 09:11:45 AM »
You know, in Vietnam, we interogated NV and VC prisoners bringing them back in choppers.  If they didn't talk, they chucked one out the door.  The rest sang like canaries.  If it saved one wounded American, it was well worth it.  War is war and you do what has to be done to save your men.  An enemy is an enemy and needs to be treated as such.  He is not a citizen of this country and has no rights.  He is actively employed to bring down the liberty we enjoy.  Do whatever has to be done to gain the intelligence we need to protect our own fighting men.

Pete
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Offline LONGTOM

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2009, 09:17:27 AM »
Quote
If they didn't talk, they chucked one out the door.  The rest sang like canaries.

That would sure make me talk!!!  :D ;D


Quote
enemy is an enemy and needs to be treated as such

Quote
Do whatever has to be done to gain the intelligence we need to protect our own fighting men.


AMEN!!!



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That my two young sons may never have to know the horrors of war. 

I will stand for your rights as my forefathers did before me!
My thanks to those who have, are and will stand for mine!
To those in the military, I salute you!

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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2009, 09:25:52 AM »
You know, in Vietnam, we interogated NV and VC prisoners bringing them back in choppers.  If they didn't talk, they chucked one out the door.  The rest sang like canaries.  If it saved one wounded American, it was well worth it.  War is war and you do what has to be done to save your men.  An enemy is an enemy and needs to be treated as such.  He is not a citizen of this country and has no rights.  He is actively employed to bring down the liberty we enjoy.  Do whatever has to be done to gain the intelligence we need to protect our own fighting men.

Pete

Pete my cousin flew C130's there during the war and he told me the same thing happened on his ship!

Hard to win when you are the only team going by the rules, we lost too many people in viet nam because politicians ran the "police action" or whatever they called it!  Now some want to go after those who did the right thing when it was needed,after 911. They are wrong and setting a dangerous precedent, strictly down party lines. Seems from what I have read and heard the intelligence guys walked a line so as not to harm anyone! They are still there, right!
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2009, 09:33:31 AM »
I hope this administration goes after the Bush admin will all barrels fully loaded. I hope they go after Bush himself, Cheney and the rest. Then, I hope this administration support the Spanish governments prosecution of the Bush administration. They should work to find Bush and Bush-ites guilty then extradite them to Spain for prosecution under Spanish laws. Ten Spain can extradite them to Iran or any other country that wants to persecute them as well.

All this will proof that this administration is willing to do anything possible, anything to get its political opponents wiped out. It will create a firestorm of backlash and likely be enough to finally bring the collapse of our entire political system that we deserve. Then, we can try and start anew, that will be no worse than the present.

If the obamanation is willing to target specific private citizens in its attack machine (which they have done this), they certainly will be willing to go after it's prominent political opponents on the right. They have proven they can rail-road an $850 billion so called stimulus plan through congress to payback his political contributors, they will use all means to get to the end.

The obamanation may just be the apocalypse we need.
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Offline petemi

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2009, 09:36:53 AM »
Thank you, Frank.  I'll get off my soap box now!  I just knew too many good men that paid for our freedom there.....and it continues.

Oldshooter, it was totally stupid.  We couldn't attack Hanoi and the shipping in the harbor bringing in war supplies.  If the generals and not the politicians ran the war it would have had a very different outcome.

Pete
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Offline kinslayer1965

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2009, 09:53:03 AM »
Cabin,

I have enjoyed reading many of your post. I have in many cases agreed with you and when I didn't agree I at least understood where you were comming from so to speak.

That last post was pure garbage. I can only hope it was rhetoric.

I find the idea of shipping our President to a foreign country for prosecution offensive. Not even in my ardent dislike for President Obama would I call for his life to be placed into the hands of the people who beheaded Mr. Pearl.

If you truly wish for an apocalypse it leads me to believe your are mentally unstable or you have never actually learned what the definition of apocalyps actually is. It is not something to be wished for, at least not by rational folks.

CR
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Offline petemi

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2009, 09:58:54 AM »
Kinslayer, gotta agree wid ya.

Pete
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Offline kinslayer1965

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2009, 10:05:25 AM »
Just so you have my frame of reference concerning the term apocalypse.

The popular definition is "The end of the world"

The biblical definition is "The last test of the sinful nature of man by the loosing of satan with the judgment of fire comming down from heaven to follow and the destruction of the current heavens and earth which will be recreated as a new heaven and earth ushering in the beginning of eternity"
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2009, 10:32:58 AM »
Just so you have my frame of reference concerning the term apocalypse.

The popular definition is "The end of the world"

The biblical definition is "The last test of the sinful nature of man by the loosing of satan with the judgment of fire comming down from heaven to follow and the destruction of the current heavens and earth which will be recreated as a new heaven and earth ushering in the beginning of eternity"

Of course there is some sarcasim in my post. I do hope that the obamanation pushes these investigations. It will casue a back lash.

BTW: I do understand the real defenition of the word apocalypse. It fits. We need one.
Avery Hayden Wallace
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Offline kinslayer1965

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2009, 05:29:53 PM »
Cabin,

I am truly saddened to hear comments like that from someone who, from what I gather reading your past posts, seems to be a rational and reasonably intelligent person. While there are things that I don't like about the way our country seems to be heading there are many things in this world to be happy about. To wish for the end of the world as we know it is not in my opinion rational.

It could be that we are possibly holding two different opinions as to the definition of apocalypse. The "real" definition as you refer to it might be something different than the definition I adhere to. By all means enlighten me as to your definition. Nothing would make me happier than to find out the issue is nothing more than differing opinions as to the definition.

Now to the question of waterboarding and torture. I have to ask myself would I waterboard someone to get information that would save the life of a member of my family or a loved one? The answer is absolutely. So can I judge someone for something I would do if I had to?

The plain truth of the matter is that any president who is serious about the security of our nation has to make decisions during the course of his tenure that would make a billy goat puke. I for one am glad they took the actions that they took. You will never hear of the good information that they gathered that saved lives. Obama and his cronies will not release that. You also will not hear me complain because they waterboarded Kalid Sheik Mohammed 160 times. If they let me have 24 hours with him he would look back on waterboarding with fond memories. Anyone familiar with the Tom Clancy's book "Without Remorse"?
If that makes me an evil person so be it.

CR
 
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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2009, 05:42:02 PM »
Quote
If they let me have 24 hours with him he would look back on waterboarding with fond memories.

You ain't just whistling Dixie there pard! To save someone I love or my country! I'd make him curse his momma. Then they could do what they want to me after that! That ain't crazy ideologue ranting.
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Offline Redtail1949

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2009, 06:19:19 PM »
Lets see how far back we gonna go? Not a peep about Robert Kennedy ordering the assasination of Castro. Hell  he was only the attorney general.

Every President has ordered assasiunations and worse.

Show me any enemy of the US at any time in history that did not torture our prisoners and I mean torture ..cutting fingers off pulling nails..breaking arms leghs and after it was all done killing them. We basicaly did not take any prisoners in the Pacific during WWII. Yes I know that we did get some however that part of the war was one with out mercy by both sides.

The Germans were damned brutal with one main exception of Air Force Personel in most cases. Yet there were many recorded instances of torture of our air crews.

Korea ...man oh man not a lot of kindness  from them and Vietnam I saw first hand the result you could expect in the most part if captured by them. Saw many headless bodies with their you know ewhat stuffed in their mouth.

If you do not know or you are unaware of just how the Muslims will do thjeir prisoners just read a little aboutr how the Afgans did the Russians. That should make the strongest man shake.

So lets see we made them cold we did not let them sleep we played loud rock music in the cell blocks. Oh and yes we waterboarded on 183 times. Yet
he is still alive and well not worse for wear.

There is no comparision to torture that can be made with that.

Yet now the Obama Administration wants to persue War Crimes you gotta be kidding me. Half the Democrats knew about it some even were in on the decision to do it. So now because once again Obama has proven just how little he knows and once again he has shown just how deep he is in over his head.

Like was said in one of the previous post..I will kill butcher or whatever is need anyone that has information that could save lives of my fellow soldiers or my family. Without hesitation I would do it.

Anyone who wants to take the so called moral high ground in those suituations proves he knows nothing of war and the terrible things that go with it. Peanut Carter a Nuke Sub Commander revealed to us that he would have never fired them had he been ordered to. He did not have what you have to have to be a War time President. How many were killed in thr botched rescue of the hostages in Iran 15-20 and he tucks tail and runs. That was the price that is paid in War and actions of War. Innocents or killed men 100 if not thousands have been sacrificed knowingly just in a feinting manuver to fool the enemy. The commanders that sent thewm to certain death knew they were going to die but it had top be done to win the battle.

Thats the kind of man that we need in the Presidency at this time. Not some whimpering opologetic wimp that does not have the backbone to even stand up to Harry Reid or for Gods sake Nancy Pelosi.

That what Afganistan will make Iraq seem like childs play... the Afgans will fill plane after plane with our dead and Obama does not have the will nor spirit to win. He will make us ashamed and he will not bring Pride to the people nor the nation.

Offline powderman

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2009, 03:15:57 AM »
Quote
If they let me have 24 hours with him he would look back on waterboarding with fond memories.

You ain't just whistling Dixie there pard! To save someone I love or my country! I'd make him curse his momma. Then they could do what they want to me after that! That ain't crazy ideologue ranting.

Agreed. Theres nothing I wouldn't do to one of those Godless scum if I thought he had info that would save even ONE innocent life, especially a loved one. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline gypsyman

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2009, 03:17:56 AM »
If this administration wants to persue war crimes, lets make sure all are included. Which includes ,Pelosi,Biden,Clinton, and 75% of the rest of the Dems, that are making this an issue. These politicians knew what was going on, they were briefed, and a few of them watched how it was done. They keep pushing on this and like issue's, this will energize the terrorists, and we will have another 911. All they see is our gov't acting like kids on the school yard. Instead of focusing on the real issue's, we're bickering amongst ourselve's.   gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2009, 03:23:41 AM »
you know what the new govt. is like a kid with a box of candy , they keep sticking their finger in one thing after another but all they are doing is screwing up a box of candy for everyone else .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline jimkim

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2009, 03:41:44 AM »
If this administration wants to persue war crimes, lets make sure all are included. Which includes ,Pelosi,Biden,Clinton, and 75% of the rest of the Dems, that are making this an issue. These politicians knew what was going on, they were briefed, and a few of them watched how it was done. They keep pushing on this and like issue's, this will energize the terrorists, and we will have another 911. All they see is our gov't acting like kids on the school yard. Instead of focusing on the real issue's, we're bickering amongst ourselve's.   gypsyman
Amen to that. I think if they go after one of them they should pursue all of them, but we know that probably wont happen. I would love to have Pelosi under oath and ask her if she is lying about being informed about it or is she incompetent. Remember she is under oath. If they find proof she was told, she could be charged with perjury. I personally think she is just incompetent.