War Crimes

[Oldshooter]

his presidency is a check in the win column for Islam.

That may be an understatement!

I'm still trying to figger if he is a plant, or he's just naive, either way he is a big problem for the future of this country!  

This poll will make you nervous, I don't even think lefties will find this comforting, in lieu of the fact that if the republic of Islam takes a foot hold. Then there will be no dissension allowed, infidel comrade!

Thursday, April 09, 2009
Only 53% of American adults believe capitalism is better than socialism.

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 20% disagree and say socialism is better. Twenty-seven percent (27%) are not sure which is better.

Adults under 30 are essentially evenly divided: 37% prefer capitalism, 33% socialism, and 30% are undecided. Thirty-somethings are a bit more supportive of the free-enterprise approach with 49% for capitalism and 26% for socialism. Adults over 40 strongly favor capitalism, and just 13% of those older Americans believe socialism is better.

[SHOOTALL]

freedom only looks good to those who have lived free and earned their keep .

[WylieKy]

1. Torture is torture and it is wrong.  Period. WWJD people, you should be ashamed.  War is war, and if you throw a grenade at someone and they blow up....so be it.  If they catch some shrapnel in the leg and surrender, you get them the medical attntion they need and see that they are interrogated.  Sleep deprivation, good cop/bad cop, humiliation, etc...is not torture.  Waterboarding is borderline IMHO. 

2. The Gitmo situation was flat out unAmerican and illegal.  Period.  Can a member of the military tell me what the life span of captured intelligence is?  If I'm not mistaken it usually has a shelf life of hours, days at the longest.  What is the point of keeping a human being locked up, without trial, in a foreign country?  If they are criminals, prosecute.  If they are POW's, hold them under Geneva rules.  It's that simple.  What was done was wrong.  Keep in mind how the majority of people on this site are now being viewed by DHS, and then imagine being locked up without a trial.  Entirely possible under the Patriot Act.



We are supposed to be Americans.  We wear the White Hats and go into battle with God at our side and Right in our Heart.  It is what is supposed to set us apart from the rest of the world.  Some people have mentioned the practices that the enemy follows.  Well...that's what makes them the enemey, right?

[SHOOTALL]

That sounds great but did you consider we Americans did not follow those rules until the 1900's ? We were not the only country that set them up . What used to seperate us was our love of freedom , of indivisual freedoms to choose our way in life , our bonding togather to over come aggression , our ablity to work togather - to compromise and belief in God.
I don't agree with your idea , war is hell and winning is the only option PERIOD !

[Oldshooter]

Period. WWJD people, you should be ashamed.  War is war, and if you throw a grenade at someone and they blow up....so be it.

On that premise pardner we were wrong to do anything after 9/11. Jesus would not have done any thing! you contradict yourself in two sentences! I am ashamed for you!

If we are going to start quoting the bible here I ask that this thread be moved to the religious forum!

[SHOOTALL]

Don't know what Jesus would do but God let the ones chasing his chosen people drown !

[WylieKy]

Shooter, we live in a hard world and I understand that we must look after ourselves 1st.  If someone broke into my house and tried to rape my daughter I would put a bullet though his middle and spit in his face.  If someone is plotting against the US, take them to trial, convict, and then hang them.  Torture, however, is wrong.  We need to be better than that.

To defend oneself from harm is an inalieable right.  To torture and maim another in the hopes of gaining information that may or may not be usefull by the time you get it is not.  To keep someone locked up for an indefinate period of time without trial is wrong and unAmerican.

[SHOOTALL]

if that same guy came when you were not home and took your daughter and you knew he had her and to get the location of her you had to torture him or one of his buddies in crime to save her .
I got to ask if you would or would not ? Like i said winning is the only option ! BTW the same Americans that followed those rules also set off the first 2 nukes that cause suffering for years after in an effort to save human life American life and others . Thank God some Americans can still get the job done !

[Oldshooter]

If someone is plotting against the US, take them to trial, convict, and then hang them.  Torture, however, is wrong.  We need to be better than that.

Wylie, Nothing has convinced me that those guys were tortured! just cause obamma says so dont make it so. hes a proven liar!

And do we want to get these guys in court and have them get a shyster lawyer to get them off on a technicality and sue us and win so we can support their jihad ! I think not! They are people that should not have been saved from the battlefields unless they had info, then get it, then put them out of their misery as you said about someone that trys to rape your daughter.  This aint your daddys war pardner, they mean to kill you, your dog and your family! and kill our civilization as we know it. Turn their world into a parking lot as far as I'm concerned!

[WylieKy]

Wylie, Nothing has convinced me that those guys were tortured!

Sleep deprivation, good cop/bad cop, humiliation, etc...is not torture.  Waterboarding is borderline IMHO. 

I guess that step 1 would be to determine what "torture" is.  I think that it would be anything that causes pain (not distress or discomfort) that has no purpose other than to cause pain and get someone to talk.

[And do we want to get these guys in court

Yes.

and have them get a shyster lawyer to get them off on a technicality and sue us and win so we can support their jihad !

No. I want them to have a fair trial.  Like in the Constitution.  Which our military is supposed to protect from enemies foreign AND domestic.

if that same guy came when you were not home and took your daughter and you knew he had her and to get the location of her you had to torture him or one of his buddies in crime to save her .
I got to ask if you would or would not ?

I can say that I would take a torch to the man myself.  That being said the "kidnapped daughter" is a static situation...a man has my daughter locked up and she's not going anywhere.  I would also expect to pay the price for that eventually, be it legally and/or spiritually.  The situation in the field is not static.  If a key member is captured, I'm sure that plan is almost immediatley scrapped, safe houses are moved, ammo cache's changed, etc...  As I said previously, that info has a very limited shelf life.  If it can be easily and quickly obtained though methods to do not meet my definition of torture above, go for it.  Say...giving them an IV of pigs blood...makeing them defeciate on the Quo'ran, forcing them to listen to Obama's speeches, what have you.  I'm all for interogation, and all against torture (with the exception of Obama's speeches.)

[teamnelson]

TM7, everything I said was gained through first hand contact, living and working all over the Middle East, speaking the language, over the last couple decades. I've also done post-graduate religion studies in Jordan. I have formally studied the Quran, Ummah and Hadith; chatted with dozens of Imams all over the world. I'll hold my credentials to speak on the subject of Islam against anyone's. I made no statements contrasting Islam and any other religion, and nothing at all about how they view Christ. If you are looking to have that discussion we can move over to a more appropriate thread.

I'd suggest you Google CAIR, American Muslim Council or AMANA for your conspiracy research. Several of the organizations have collapsed and morphed into new ones since I last researched it in 1999, particularly after 9/11.

You may also enjoy MEMRI.org. Its an anti-semitic watchdog group so know that they're slanted. Their translation work is accurate though ... recognizing my word is probably irrelevant to you, you can have it verified by any other Arabic linguist.

[powderman]

OLDSHOOTER, SHOOTALL. Good posts, I agree. Theres nothing I wouldn't do to one of the Godless ones if I felt he had info that would save even ONE innocent life. If one of my loved ones were in harms way, all bets would be off. He'd talk, period. Scums life is worth NOTHING to me. POWDERMAN. 

[billy_56081]

If these folks were brought up on "war crimes" charges and I were on the jury I would not convict no matte what the evidence. Just as I would refuse to convict our soldiers and sailors of any crimes they committed while in a comabat zone to any non American.

[gypsyman]

The best way to extract information and not torture anyone, put 3 of them in a room, shoot the one in the middle,(not torturing him, consider it exacuting a terrorist), and get the other 2 to talk. If that don't work, shoot another one.Eventually, one of them will talk, and you didn't torture anyone.  gypsyman

[powderman]

There was a method used in VN that involved 3 BGs at a time and a chopper. Hmmmmm. Jes can't remember.  POWDERMAN. 

[SHOOTALL]

Wylieky , get a job with CNN . you are a spin DR.
did you read what you posted ? Its OK for you to torture but no one else . You are starting to sound like a politican , the ones that have an azz for a sign .

[no guns here]

Personally... to get information that would lead to my children/wife/subordinates/fellow service members/captive Americans/POW's would do many unspeakable things to those who I felt could give me such information.  I would NOT do those things to get a publicity statement (like in Vietnam).  I would not do those things merely for fun or as revenge.  Believe me... If I thought that my efforts would lead to the rescue of my kid... I could find many things to do with a car battery, jumper cables, a hammer, a drill, salt, a pair of vice-grips and some pruning sheers.  Throw in a .22 revolver and a supply of .22 shorts just in case the dude had guts...


But then I've said before that you don't want me to be making the rules...


NGH

[SHOOTALL]

i would employ what was aval. the  faster it was applied the more the information could be used and checked . It would appear those i opposition feel that if all the information is not 100% true then none is of use . If but 10 % is true and useful the it is a success. Note also it ( the info. gained from enhanced methods ) is but a piece in a puzzle which has to mesh with other info to be of use . An example you would not destort a house on the lone words gained from torture but if that plus information from other sources fit togather then you could make a decision . IE the info supported each other , it could just as easy prove incorrectness. But to not take advantage of any source of information is foolish. I really see no difference than a sniper shooting to injury an enemy to tie up others on his side . Or fire bombs or any other act of war . War is causing pain , suffering , and death . I guess when its one on one some just don't have the stomach for it .

[SHOOTALL]

MAYBE ! if time permitted as timming is everything .

[powderman]

I thought it might be safe again then tm starts his blatant lies about how the Godless ones study our Bible and are so tolerant. BULLCOOKIES, MORE LIES. Yer back on ignore muzzie. POWDERMAN.  

[no guns here]

hmm... maybe... if I happened to have it immediately at hand.  But then again... If I do it right, I shouldn't have to work on more than one before the others would beg to talk...  Let them watch their entrails pool about their feet while you keep them alive.  Toss some hot rocks in there and let them smell the cookin'.  They'll talk and so will the others who are watching.  Or we could just inject them with your miracle drug that we don't have in our kits...

Sometimes the old ways really were the best...

NGH

Vlad the Impaler may have had it all figured out...

[Oldshooter]

"War is Hell and we aim to prove it...":

NOW you are getting to the heart of it! Civilization is for civilized people! They ain't for sure! I dont really think we are either. And i dont think its because we lock up our enemies or water-board them.  We like to think we are and "some" talk like we are better but when it gets right down to it and push comes to shove we are no more civilized than our ancestors that carried sharp sticks and clubs. Yea we have technology, but we dont use it to better ourselves we make weapons, but then it is necessary, you cant be civilized by yourself. 

Now since that is a given I say make them know why they are scared of the dark! Don'T just beat them when we are attacked annihilate them and find where they live and "kill their dog"!

I can be nice, but I can be your worst nightmare! That is primarily why I know I ain't civilized! Until some of you
ideologues understand that we will just argue about this!

Bottom line, if you attack my country, family or neighborhood, I wont want to stop until you do not exist! Thats how you end a war!

Now that being said, have a nice day!

[magooch]

Oldshooter, couldn't have said it better my own self.

[SHOOTALL]

bumper stickers , How about "Don't put innocent Americans thru. torture by flying planes into our buildings and we won't torture your kind !"

[WylieKy]

Wylieky , get a job with CNN . you are a spin DR.
did you read what you posted ? Its OK for you to torture but no one else . You are starting to sound like a politican , the ones that have an azz for a sign .

When unable to counter a rational argument, throw a personal insult...right?

I said that I would do it, and that I would pay the consequences.

I would also expect to pay the price for that eventually, be it legally and/or spiritually.

 No it would not be OK.  No it would not be legal, and would not be right.  However, I'd spend the rests of my life in jail to save my daughter.  I would make that decision to go outside of the bounds of what is acceptable to society, and I would pay the price...and gladly.  I'm sorry for answering a question honestly when my argument would have been better served to lie.  

I guess that the moral high road is only used on sunny days by many.

TM7, I have another bumper sticker for you...

The Constitution: What we wipe our ass with when it becomes inconvenient.

[Oldshooter]

Where was the Constitution when Dresden was firebombed. Where was the Constitution when Nagasaki and Hiroshima was nuked! Most of those folks weren't even enemy combatants, hundreds of thousands!

It was right up there in the Glass case being protected.

Sometime you gotta do Ugly things to defeat your enemies! But if you don't you are the one that looses and they wont be concerned about your rights. Bataan, The Holocaust, the world trade center, you fellas make me laugh! Sure you loose a little part of yourself in a conflict like that but its better than loosing your world! at least it is to me and I hope more of us!

I am just repeating myself here! I'm through with this!

[SHOOTALL]

no personal insult , just pointed out what you posted , Got to ask though why should it be illegal in the first place ? Where in the Bible is it addressed ?the base of most law .  The treaty addressing torture among other acts was to make war more humane . When only one side follows it then it will not work . You fight fire with fire . You make war in a way the other side can't keep it up . They loose ! They can't afford in money or men to keep fighting . Lets face it if the other side knows its men will be tortured it has an effect . Yes on both sides . But they are doing it already so the idea if we don't they will treat our men humane is already proven BS with regard to muslims .

[WylieKy]

Shootall, since you felt that it was appropiate to bring up another of my posts I felt turnabout was fairplay.

Beers i have seen such at the the center for children . 12 year old and older girls and boys for that matter  turned out by their parents for money to buy drugs .
When we talk about freedom , drugs and kids it get real hard to remember who has freedoms and when their freedom stops . Some say allow drug use , then how do the non drug users keep their freedom ? You forget many drug users don't have a job , can't work and shoot up . So they rob , break and enter and cause many other problems for the non users . We have seat belt laws because insurance had to pay for injury . not because they wanted to save people . Everyone complained about what insurance cost were . I see it as somewhat the same . we pay LE , the court etc. now . we will still pay if it is legal. The ? is will more try drugs and become a larger burden on the rest of us ? Thus costing us loss of freedom and $$$$$$  ? We have to admit if something is legal then it is acceptable to many . Abortion is a good example .
Each issue like this could be considered a block in America's moral footing . Remove to many and the wall of freedom will fall over .

So...Shootall.  Let me see if I understand correctly.  It is a danger to America's moral footing to smoke a joint with some buddies in the saftey on one's own home, but it is perfectly reasonable to torture someone.  That, my friend, is FUBAR.

[teamnelson]

I find the very fact we detain and question to be a reflection of how much our government truly does not understand this war and our enemy. Torture in any fashion is not the moral high ground which is where we need to stand right now.

Off to deliver a memorial service for one of mine who took his own life. So many tired and sad young people who are disillusioned with this thing we call America that they want to protect.

[SHOOTALL]

You know the only point i see is in both cases we are trying to save American lives . You bring up morals in this case and compare it to what i posted before , fair enough . Moral with regard to behavior is little more than what one accepts as right and wrong . What is acceptable to some is not to others .  illegal drug use is not a positive action for me or my country . I don't see such as helping America . I consider it wrong . Torture on the other hand if it saves American lives is right IMHO !
Many people get excited when someone tries to point out their morals . I don't , God will judge me for what I am . If I have to spend eternity in hell for advocating doing what ever needs to be done to win a war aginst a group of radicals bent on destorying Christanity and America then it will have to be .
As a bit of explination , I feel it wrong ( a sin )to do anything to ones body that harms it or puts one in a state where judgement is impaired . So drugs are out for me .