Author Topic: War Crimes  (Read 8610 times)

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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #120 on: April 30, 2009, 01:47:49 PM »
Pretty much where I thought you were going with that! It is not me that needs to get it!

Much of the enemy combatants were from Afganistan!


So we should ignore your Churchill quote, and take no prisoners, and just kill them on the battlefield, even if they surrender?   ???
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Offline wareagleguy

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #121 on: April 30, 2009, 02:12:15 PM »
Correct, Afganistan is the enemy and the fight should be there.  I think we need to learn from the U.S.S.R. on Afganistan.  If we fight, we should do with a resolve to remove the problem.  Torture of captives is another issue.  All I am saying is fight to win but don't destry your own values.  I think if Chruchill can take the high road during the darkest times of English history, we can too.

I think its like my carry gun.  I will do everything (even run) to keep from pulling it but if I do, it will be smokin!!!
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Offline Cement Man

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #122 on: April 30, 2009, 02:14:15 PM »
The problem some of you are having, is that you don't understand the level of mentality of the people your dealing with.

I think that the problem is that I do understand the mentality of the people that we are dealing with, and I choose to be a better man than they.  Others, however, are ok with debasing theirselves to the level of what they formerly found to be abhorrent.  I believe that "moral degradation" is the appropiate phrase.  "If you can't beat them, join them." also comes to mind.


Wylie, this is a lot more deep and serious than slogans.  "If you can't beat them, join them."   That's pretty thin.  The objective is to get information in order to prevent a situation - a situation that might cause terrible, indiscriminate suffering and loss of life to untold numbers of defenseless innocents.  Your chivalry ("choose to be a better man") is admirable but I don't see it as more precious or as important than innocent life that can be murdered or maimed.  You don't see the difference?

You mentioned in a past post that if you caught somebody doing something to your daughter you would kill them.  Where is the due process as guaranteed in the constitution then?  Are you not responding "in kind" to a criminal act?  If you are, you must be "joining them".

I truly wish there was a consensus that could be reached on this subject.  I keep pondering the pluses and minuses to see where I end on the issue.  Geneva Convention? - I don't think it applies.   Constitutional rights? - I'm not sure about how they apply to these people.  Furthermore, is protecting "the rights" (the right of no discomfort) of say, 50 people worth not stopping the slaughter or some ghastly disease and suffering for say, half a million people (as in a poisoned food chain or water supply, nuclear event, etc.) Where is the equivalency here? How do you deal with people that routinely and over, and over, and over again - slaughter and maim innocent people in the most dastardly ways.  
Sometimes I wonder what the framers of our constitution would really say about a global ability to murder by people who have no moral scruples about anything.  If they could understand modern technology, the vulnerability that we have against this, the nature of these people who use the vulnerability of a free country to murder us - I believe they might wonder why we are trying to be so nice.

Then there is the oft reference to the threat that this power will be abused, and employed against us. I trust that we haven't gone that direction and it is not our objective to.  

I don't like the idea of coercion.  Not at all.  But I see it as handfull of unpleasant vs. a railcar full of horrible.  


CIVES ARMA FERANT - Let the citizens bear arms.
POLITICIANS SHOULD BE LIMITED TO TWO TERMS - ONE IN OFFICE AND ONE IN PRISON.... Illinois already does this.

Offline torpedoman

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #123 on: April 30, 2009, 04:04:53 PM »
 It sets a wonderful presidence that we can use to sue all their people to get our bailout money back and jail them for financing acorn as part of a criminal enterprise.
the nation that forgets it defenders will itself be forgotten

Offline powderman

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #124 on: April 30, 2009, 04:23:53 PM »
Our local dumcrap controlled paper was full of TORTURE articles, including a cartoon. I'm fed up with it. Fact is, American lives were saved using waterboarding. I might do worse than that if my loved one were a captive of the Godless ones. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
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Offline Cement Man

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #125 on: May 01, 2009, 02:11:28 AM »
Some other information regarding this issue.  Apparently the British DID use "discomfort" during WWII.

As he marked his 100th day in office at a prime time news conference Wednesday, President Obama defended his decision to ban "enhanced" interrogation techniques by conceding an argument to the most prominent defender of them, former Vice President Dick Cheney.

Obama acknowledged that the use of interrogation methods probably yielded valuable information that saved American lives -- a point that Cheney has repeatedly hammered in his quest to have more intelligence reports released.

But Obama argued that isn't the central point.

"That we got information from these individuals that were subjected to these techniques doesn't answer the core question, which is could we have gotten that same information without resorting to these techniques?" he said.

And he argued that banning all the enhanced interrogation techniques was the right thing to do because the information could have been gleaned in other ways.

But officials familiar with the interrogation program say that is simply not true with top al Qaeda operatives.

"The 14 major or 16 high-value targets we captured were all trained to resist interrogation," Michael Scheuer, a former CIA employee, told FOX News.

Interrogators started with the mildest forms of questioning with Abu Zubaydah, the first high-ranking terrorist captured. When he stopped cooperating, they slowly escalated techniques, eventually turning to waterboarding.

After that, Zubaydah gave up much more information, some of it leading to the capture of Ramzi Binalshibb, which in turn led to Sept. 11 planner Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

"There's a whole string of captures and interrogations that lead to other captures and interrogations to subsequent captures," said Michael Hayden, former director of the National Security Agency and CIA.

In fact, Khalid Sheik Mohammed provided information that exposed a plot to launch a Sept. 11 style attack on the U.S. Bank Tower in Los Angeles -- information obtained through enhanced interrogation methods, including waterboarding.

"Two of the people against whom waterboading was used created a significant fraction of our reporting on al Qaeda over a period of several years," Hayden said.

But Obama has raised questions about whether the information could have been collected in other ways.

Critics of harsh interrogation complain that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded some 183 times. If he'd been willing to cooperate as the president hopes, that wouldn't have been necessary. Though the 183 refers to every time water was poured, not separate episodes.

"Every application of whatever amount of water is used counts as waterboarding," Scheuer said.

Obama made one other argument Wednesday night, pulled from World War II.

"When London was being bombed to smithereens, had 200 or so detainees," he said. "And Churchill said, 'We don't torture.'"

Even though the British, Obama added, were being subjected to unimaginable risk. But as it turns out, his account is not true. British records show they used the equivalent of enhanced interrogation techniques, such as sleep deprivation and exposure to cold water, among other things, to successfully extract information from captured German spies.


The last sentence is quite interesting.

ADD: from Fox News this morning
CIVES ARMA FERANT - Let the citizens bear arms.
POLITICIANS SHOULD BE LIMITED TO TWO TERMS - ONE IN OFFICE AND ONE IN PRISON.... Illinois already does this.

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #126 on: May 01, 2009, 02:42:25 AM »
I think it best not to involve lawyers in War. Seems every time Lawyers/politicians get involved in World conflicts they fight them to stalemates in back rooms and negotiation.(Korea,Vietnam,The list goes on) Now dont get me wrong, I have nothing against a good Lawyer, When you are in a court of law, they are a good "friend" to have or when you have legal problem, but as in this war, I think they( odrama,and his attorney general) may make a difficult problem additionally difficult. Unfortunately for mankind, the meanest SOB in the Valley fears no evil!
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline powderman

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #127 on: May 01, 2009, 03:05:20 AM »
Sure glad osama has let his brothers know that their secrets are safe now. The blood of innocents will be on his hands. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
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Offline no guns here

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #128 on: May 01, 2009, 03:17:20 AM »
Neither politicians nor lawyers should ever be involved in war.  The CinC should set his goals and intent and then step back and let the trained professionals prosecute the war to reach those goals and to meet his intent.  Kind of like having a trained attack dog that you can call off when the bad guy is either dead, immobile or gives up.
 "I'll let him loose, I promise..."
 "Really, I'm gonna have him hurt you..."
" If you don't stop, I'm gonna sic him on you..."


GET HIM BOY!!!  SIC 'EM!

At that point you gotta be smart enough to let your dog bite what he's gonna bite.  Don't try to tell him "Bite here!  NO!  Bite here!  I meant over HERE!"

No... you just let him chase, and chew and chomp until the feller quits...


"Okay boy... HEEL!"


Lawyers and politicians just get in the way and get the dog all confused and give the bad buy a breather...

If you wanna blow someone up... we do that really well.
If you wanna shoot someone... we do that pretty well too.
We sic'em when you say and we quit when you say.  Just leave us alone while we do our job...

NGH

"I feared for my life!"

Offline powderman

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #129 on: May 01, 2009, 03:57:23 AM »
NGH. Well said, and true, I agree. POWDERMAN.  ;D ;D
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline WylieKy

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #130 on: May 01, 2009, 04:43:04 AM »
I'm going to say this, then I think I'll be done with this thread...  :-[   

Yes, I said that I would torture a man to save my daughter.  I would die for my daughter, so I would certainly be willing to lose my freedom.  Check out my signature some time.  If an individual soldier or commander in the field feels the need to sacrifice his or her freedom or life for their soldiers by breaking the ROE, that is among the most noble of sacrifices and will certainly be rewarded in the end.  There are, however, consequences for those actions...hence the term "sacrifice."

Those are 1,000,000 to 1 circumstances.  As a society we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard.  Society has to make laws to cover 1:1,000,000  not 1,000,000:1. If an individual decides that the gain is worth the cost, he or she will do it, but a society can't condone it.  As a society we have to be concerend not only with the consequences and reasons for todays actions, but with the precedent that we are setting for tomorrow.  When The Patriot Act and wire tapping issues 1st came out, I don't know how many times I heard "If you don't have anything to hide, don't worry about it."  Then people started contemplating the possible consequences of the verbage and the posiblities for alternte interpretation.  This is the same issue.  It is not necessarily today's President that concerns me (although he concerns me more than yesterday's) but tomorrows.  On top of the spiritual issues, I worry about laying the foundation for a future despot.  It would be very easy to change from "Foreign Terrorist on Domestic Soil" to "Domestic Terrorist on Domestic Soil." 

For those of you stating that these people are "godless ones" and "animals" and "human life holds no value for them", and you are using that to justify torture of foreigners... well there are plenty of "godless ones" and "animals" and people who do not value human life in the US.  Who gets to determine who is a "godless one", "animal", or "holds no value for human life?"  I'm awlful partial to a good hangin, and have no problem with putting these people to death either during the heat of battle or after being convicted during a fair trial (doesn't have to be civilian btw), but torture is wrong.
This that I do, I do by my own free will.

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #131 on: May 01, 2009, 05:09:42 AM »
Watch this and see how the secretary of state felt about this subject;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijEED_iviTA
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline kinslayer1965

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #132 on: May 01, 2009, 05:10:04 AM »
TM7,

John Walker Lindh.....there do I get a cookie? You seem to operate on the assumption that you are smarter than everybody with whom you are having a conversation. I believe they refer to that as an unwarranted assumption.

BTW can you give me the serial numbers from any plane that crashed anywhere?

There are no qualifiers that I am concerned with as to the safety of my loved ones. I will not wring my hands and worry about other less intrusive methods could be applied I will do whatever I have to do to maintain the safety of my family and loved ones.

It is correct that Winston Churchill did not like the idea of torture. However he had no problem with carpet bombing cities which caused massive civilian casualties.

Since you seem to be foutain of knowledge concerning the root causes of wars could you give me a brief rundown as to the cause of the following?

US involvment in WW1
US involvemnt in WW2
China's involvment in WW2
US involvment in Korea
US involvment in Vietnam

My leg is tingling in anticipation waiting for your response.

Cement, Oldshooter, powderman, no guns, and TN great post keep it up.

CR
A man without a stick will get bitten, even by sheep.

Offline kinslayer1965

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #133 on: May 01, 2009, 05:33:10 AM »
WylieKy,

I was in the process of posting and did not see your response till after my last.

That was a very articulate and well thought out. It was a pleasure to read. I respect your thougts and ideas and believe that we are not that different.

I believe we have a mechanism for making those distinctions here in the US. And you are very correct there are many here in the US who "need hangin". We have the courts to decide that because they broke our laws that they live under with all the contitutional issues that apply.

As to what happens during a "war" well that is a bit more difficult. Many countries decided to adopt certain codes as to what is acceptable conduct when two countries using uniformed military units meet in combat. These codes are an attempt at making warfare humane. Kind of like jumbo shrimp in my opinion but non the less that is what we have to work with. How do you adress the problems that occur when you have to fight somebody that does not agree to the afore mentioned codes of conduct? Do you resign yourself to eventual defeat because you stick to your guns or do you adapt?

I prefer to err on the side of caution. That being the side that brings home our boys a girls in uniform alive.

CR.
A man without a stick will get bitten, even by sheep.

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #134 on: May 01, 2009, 08:26:42 AM »

A little info on that poor "aledgedly tortured" terrorist

"Lindh was captured on November 25, 2001, by Afghan Northern Alliance forces, and questioned by Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) officer Johnny "Mike" Spann and another officer at General Dostum's military garrison, Qala-i-Jangi, near Mazār-e Sharīf. As shown on British Channel 4 news, Spann asks Lindh, "Are you a member of the IRA?" He was asked this question because an Iraqi in the group identified Lindh as an English speaker when asked by Spann. Lindh had been told to say he was "Irish" in order to avoid problems.[11] Moments later, around 11a.m., the makeshift prison was the scene of a violent Taliban uprising, known as the Battle of Qala-i-Jangi, in which Spann was killed along with hundreds of foreign fighters. According to other captives interviewed by Pelton, Lindh was fully aware of the planned uprising, yet remained silent and did not cooperate with the Americans.[12] Lindh did not report his American citizenship to his captors, in spite of the fact that it may have provided him better treatment.[13]

After the initial uprising Lindh found refuge in a basement bunker after taking a bullet in the right upper thigh, hiding with a group of Saudis, Uzbeks, and Pakistanis. He was found seven days later on December 2, 2001, when Northern Alliance forces diverted an irrigation stream, drowning many, and eventually flushing out Lindh and about 80 survivors from the original 300. The Northern Alliance captors then pinned Lindh's elbows behind his back.

Lindh initially gave his name as "Abd-al-Hamid" but later gave his birth name when interviewed by Robert Young Pelton for CNN. Pelton brought a medic and food for Lindh and interviewed him about how he got there.[14][15] Repeatedly Pelton asked Lindh if he wanted to call his parents or have Pelton do so, which Lindh replied in a hostile manner or refused.[16] Despite all of this, Lindh's parents continue to paint Pelton as a terrible person and the one "responsible" for the "image" of their son. Lindh said that the prison uprising was sparked by some of the prisoner guards smuggling grenades into the basement, "This is against what we had agreed upon with the Northern Alliance, and this is against Islam. It is a major sin to break a contract, especially in military situations". [17]

Upon capture, Lindh was given basic first aid and then questioned for a week at Mazār-e Sharīf, before being taken to Camp Rhino on December 7, 2001, the bullet still within his thigh. [18][19] When Lindh arrived at Camp Rhino he was stripped and he was restrained to a stretcher, blindfolded and placed in a metal shipping container, which was procedure for dealing with a potentially dangerous detainee associated with a terrorist organization. While bound to the stretcher his picture was taken by American military personnel.[20] While at Camp Rhino he was given Tylox for pain and Valium.[21] He was later to complain that as military personnel passed the echoing cargo container around each 24 hour cycle, they hammered on its metal sides and shouted abuse and threats. He remained in severe pain from the bullet that remained in his leg. The photograph of him naked was cropped so as not to show his leg wound. On at least one occasion he was interrogated while naked, drugged and with the bullet still in his leg. On December 8th and 9th he was interviewed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)[19]. He was held at Camp Rhino until he was transferred to USS Peleliu on December 14, 2001[22]

He was interrogated before the operation on December 14. While on the Peleliu, he signed confession documents while he was held by the United States Marine Corps and informed his interrogators that he was not merely Taliban but al-Qaeda, though his father later asserted he was not involved in, and unaware of, al-Qaeda. On December 31, 2001, he was transferred to the USS Bataan, where he was held until January 22, 2002, when he was flown off the Bataan to begin the journey back to the United States to face criminal charges. While on the USS Bataan, Attorney General John Ashcroft, on January 16, 2002, announced that Lindh would be tried in the United States.

His attorney claimed to the press that he asked for a lawyer repeatedly before being interviewed but he did not get one, and that "highly coercive" prison conditions forced Lindh to waive his right to remain silent. Although the FBI asked Jesselyn Radack, a Justice Department ethics advisor, whether Lindh could be questioned without a lawyer present, her advice that this should not be done was not followed.[23]"

“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline kinslayer1965

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #135 on: May 01, 2009, 10:28:02 AM »
TM7,

Thanks I love cookies. Puppy.... ad hominem????? I just don't know. At least you got the alledged part correct.

Humor me....what are the tail numbers?

 ;D ;D ;D What no cookie for that one?

Just curious was Chamberlain in on it? Believe it or not that was a serious question.

"at my level grasshopper" ouch zzzziiiinnnnggggg! Would that count as an ad hominem? ???

I gotta admit the leg thing didn't come off as funny as I had hoped. You know the old Obama thing making someones leg tingle thing.....well maybe you don't.

Kinslayer is a character from a Robert Jordan book. Yep you guessed it.....heroic fantasy/science fiction. I am sure that you will find some enjoyment in that.  ;D ;D

CR

 

A man without a stick will get bitten, even by sheep.

Offline beerbelly

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #136 on: May 01, 2009, 12:48:33 PM »
WylieKy You go ahead and be the good guy. I want to be the live guy, along with the rest of America. If would keep one trooper alive ,you would be amazed at what I would do to that scum!
                          Beerbelly

Offline lgm270

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #137 on: May 01, 2009, 12:51:35 PM »
Wow TM7.  Very insightful post about the prelude to WW2 and the interests who profited from it and WW1 as well.

Are you familiar with British historian David Irving's works,  Hitler's War, Churchill's, War, etc.    Churchill's War is particularly insightful reporting, as it does, the fact that many of Churchill's most famous WW2 speeches were delivered on the radio by an English actor named Norman Shelly who could perfectly mimic Churdhill's voice.  Churchill was frequently too drunk to go on the air or absent from London, from which he fled daily to the safety of the English countryside while rank and file Londoners had to sweat out German bombing raids.  Churchill also created and trafficked in counterfeit art works when he was short of money,  and accepted pay offs from the Czech government like many other prominent British MP's and personalities.  The loyalty of the corrupt British ruling to Czechoslovakia is more rooted in their  financial interest  in being paid bribes by the Czech government than in any committment to "democracy."  

We always hear about what a dirty dog Saddam Huessin was because he "gassed the Kurds" and this accusation was used, in part, to justify our war against this country that never did anything to us.  When Churchill was in the British government in the Post WW1 period in the 1920's, Iraq was part of the British mandate in that part of the world after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.  Churchill authorized the use of poison gas against rebellious kurds and extensive air attack against dissident villagers in Iraq, Pakistan, and other countries under British domination.    Interestingly enough, the USA did not declare war against the British Empire because Churchill was "gassing the Kurds" or because the British were suppressing democracy and free speech in Iraq, Afganistan, Egypt, and India.    Ironically, these peoples whose countries were occupied and whose people were imprisoned and killed  by the British Empire regarded the Germans and Hitler as more friendly to  freedom and democracy than the noble British who used poison gas and aerial bombardment against them. Churchill was more virulently racist than Hitler.  Hitler, however, lost the war and it is practically a thought crime to write a book that does not demonize him.    

Churchill was no friend of democracy and no ally of the USA. Rather, he was  among the most savage of the many monsters created by the British ruling classes.  Thank God we achieved our independence from these monsters in our own successful revolutionary war.
Check out David Irving's website.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/index.html

Offline powderman

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #138 on: May 01, 2009, 04:42:41 PM »
Johny jihad should never have been brought back alive. He's an American traitor. He should have been shot on site. How many Americans or allies did he kill??? He's a traitor pure and simple and should have paid with his life.Send him to hell with his Godless brothers.
Wylie. I understand your position, but it won't win a war or stop the Godless ones from murdering innocents, they have no rules of conduct. Theres nothing they won't do to further their goal of world domination. I call them Godless ones cause thats what they are. They worship a God of hatred and death and base their opinions on the rantings of a madman pedophile named mohamed. There is only one God, he is loving, caring, compassionate, and forgiving, therefore they worship a God that doesn't exist, they are then Godless. They hate you, me, and anybody else that doesn't worship their cult. We aren't dealing with caring, rational, or even thinking folks. We are dealing with a cult of hatred and death. Their women just breed more like them, and once their kids are 10 or 11 they have been so far indoctrinated into the hatred and death cult that they would never be able to exist or function  in any kind of a civilized society. Islam is a fast growing cancer and should be dealt with accordingly. They teach their kids to hate from birth. They are as mad dogs and their mosques are their lairs where the hatred and death is taught and preached. Every mosqu in the free world should be destroyed. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #139 on: May 01, 2009, 05:04:51 PM »
Quote
making warfare trully uncivilized

Well I'll be hornswaggled, all this time I thought it was a walk in the park, A picnic, an ice cream party! but it was that warmonger Churchill that made it the evil nightmare that it came to be!

So now I understand a little better "Heir 7", 

The holacaust was really brought on by the Jews! Go figger that!
Somehow I thought "ole 270" was gonna like that post! it was right up his racially harmonious alley!
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline powderman

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #140 on: May 02, 2009, 02:35:08 AM »
OS. Ya finally got it. The Jews are killers fer sure. Those cunning devils tried to make the nazis use up much needed gas and ammo killing them just to wear them out carrying and destroying their tortured, starved, dead bodies. Even 911 was a cleverly concealed plot by the IDF to murder Americans. They cleverly disguised themselves as Godless islamic murderers. Heh, herr 7 ?? I like that. POWDERMAN.  :D :D :D :D ;) ;)
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline billy_56081

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #141 on: May 02, 2009, 06:01:59 AM »
We go from war crimes to neo Naziizm. WOW!

I still say TM7 you need to run for pres. you know everything.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline billy_56081

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #142 on: May 03, 2009, 04:54:38 AM »
I myself learned a lot in school but lifes lessons were a much better teacher.

As for voting for you and you type I'm no one who would vote for the guy running on the Nazi ticket anymore that I'd vote for someone on the LiberalGungrabberBabykiller party they discust me equally.

So TM why'd you quit using your old screen name of TeleMagic?

Inquiring minds want to know.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline lgm270

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #143 on: May 03, 2009, 05:07:44 AM »
We go from war crimes to neo Naziizm. WOW!

I still say TM7 you need to run for pres. you know everything.
.
Thanx Billy...I'll count on your vote.  When I think back at all the crap they taught me in school it's a wonder I can even think at all.  BTW, you need need any newspaper articles from the 1930's for your research?

..TM7

You think these people rely on research?  You're too optimistic.

Offline kinslayer1965

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #144 on: May 03, 2009, 06:41:09 AM »
False and misleading statements by Mr. Frank Lindh omits
many known facts
Article of appeal by Johnny Spann
February 01, 2006
This rebuttal of statements and claims made by Frank Lindh, father of John Walker Lindh, will
address these issues. Frank Lindh is pushing for an official pardon or clemency of his son for the
Al Queda activities of which he is known to have been involved. These activities came to
the public's attention in November of 2001, and involved the death of my son, Johnny Micheal
Spann, a CIA agent sent to interview the prisoners at the Qala I Jangi fortress outside Mazar E
Shiref. My son met his death at the hands of Al Queda terrorists on November 25, 2001… one of
the Al Queda terrorists present that day was Frank Lindh's son.
First and foremost I would like to clarify two primary points:
· Frank Lindh claims that his son never fired his weapon. This is false.
· Frank Lindh claims that his son did not fight against Americans. This also is false.
Some other known facts that Frank Lindh
chooses to overlook are listed below.
1. John Walker Lindh, changed his name to Suleyman al-Faris and was also known
as Abdul Hamid.
2. John Walker Lindh was a member of, and trained with Al Queda. Al Queda is a
league of foreign fighters who are trained by Osama Bin Laden. Members of this
group of fighters are typically not citizens or natives of Afghanistan. John Walker Lindh
was not allowed to join the Taliban, because he did not speak any of their languages like
Dari or Postum, and was not a Afghan. But was allowed to join and train with the Al
Queda.
The Taliban harbored Bin Laden and his Al Queda terrorist.
3. Al Queda terrorist members flew airplanes into U.S. buildings on September 11,
2001, killing over 3,000 Americans.
4. John Walker Lindh trained in the mujahideen terrorist camps first.
5. After trying to join the Taliban and being refused. John Walker Lindh trained at Al
Farooq - Osama Bin Laden’s terrorist training camp - and has officially stated that
he met and talked to Bin Laden more than once while in this training. He also
stated he spent time at Bin Laden’s guest house.
6. John Walker Lindh stated that he had knowledge of the plans for the 9-11 attacks
against the U.S. He stated that he knew that Al Queda members had been sent to the
United States to carry out suicide missions. He stated that he had also been told about
the 9-11 attacks on America, but chose to stay and continue to fight with the Al Queda
terrorists. For all Lindh knew, his own family members could have been victims of
the suicide missions.
Frank Lindh claims that his son was not responsible for 9/11 attacks, and that he
had nothing to do with them. He is not telling that he not only knew about the
plans, but also opted - as an American - not to alert anyone about his knowledge.
Lindh stated that after training camp he was asked if he like to go to other places
to carry out terriost activities, This proves he was just like the rest of the trainees
or he would never have been ask to go.
7. John Walker Lindh sent an email to his mother stating that the attacks on the USS
Cole were justified, and that he did not care if he ever set foot in America again.
8. After leaving the training camps, John Walker Lindh went to Takar. While in the
trenches on the front lines in Takar, he said that his rifle malfunctioned and was
issued another one.
Frank Lindh said his son never fired his weapon. How can his rifle malfunction, if
he never fired it?
9. John Walker Lindh surrendered with the other terrorist Al Queda fighters at
Kundus, having retreated there from Takar. He did not let anyone know that he was
American, or that he wanted to leave. (He stated that he was told to say that he was
Irish if anyone should ask).
10. John Walker Lindh was transported to Qala I Jangi Fortress on Saturday evening,
November 24, 2001, and stayed in the basement house, also known as the Pink House,
that night.
11. The revolt was planned that night while at the Pink House. Two of the prisoners
stated that everyone there that night had to choose if and how they were going to be
involved.
12.Sunday morning, November 25, 2001, my son and his partner arrived at the prison.
During this time Micheal Spann attempted to question John Walker Lindh. This
encounter was captured on the, approx. 2 hours of video, being filmed by General
Dostum’s soldier.
The prisoners being interviewed were led one at a time, from the Pink House to an open
courtyard. They were lightly restrained with their elbows tied behind their back. This left
their hands free to the front. This was the afghan way of restraining.
John Walker Lindh was one of these prisoners. After being asked to identify himself,
(practically begging him). He would not talk to his fellow Americans, and yet another
opportunity went by to tell someone whom he was and that he needed help. John
Walker Lindh also did not inform Mike Spann, or any other American there, about
the planned revolt.
If that information had been shared it would have saved my son's
life.
13. At approx. 11 AM Sunday Morning, as planned on Saturday evening by the
prisoners, a grenade was thrown to signal the attack. This is verified on the twohour
video.
The prisoners inside the Pink House, which were approx. 300, began their attack against
the guards, and the Americans. The prisoners in the courtyard, which only had their
elbows tied, jumped to their feet and attacked my son, Mike, from behind while he was
engaging the terrorist that were charging him from the basement house.
This is verified in the FBI documents released in late 2004, of interviews with
prisioners at Guantánamo Bay. which have the accounts of that attack how it
started and what ensued. Additionally, two doctors and other northern Alliance
soldiers that I personally talked to in Afghanistan, stated that they were within feet
of Mike when the grenade was thrown by the terrorist to start the revolt.
John Walker Lindh jumped to his feet to take part, just like the other terrorists,
and was shot in the leg. ( His father says he jumped to his feet to run)
14. John Walker Lindh, and the others in the courtyard, retreated to the basement
house (Pink House), and continued to fight the Northern Alliance and the
Americans.
On the second day, the Northern Alliance sent Red Cross workers inside to get
them to surrender, and John Walker Lindh, and his fellow terrorist fighters, killed
them. Some 5 days later they finally surrendered.
15. Robert Young Pelton, a reporter working in Afghanistan, was the first to
interviewed John Walker Lindh after they finally surrendered. After bringing John
Walker Lindh food and an American Medic, he tried to help him during their interview
offering to get in touch with his parents. John Walker Lindh stated to Pelton, when
asked if this was what he thought it would be like. He stated "This is exactly what I
thought that it would be like". Pelton stated that John Walker Lindh showed no
remorse for his actions. Pelton’s account is also attached to this article.
16. Frank Lindh maintains that the terrorists' prisoners were beaten. This is blatantly
false. I personally have a copy of the original video, which clearly shows that no
beatings took place. It is documented on the video that two doctors were brought
to the site and were treating and tending to the wounds of the terrorist prisoners.
There was no violence at all until the grenade was thrown to start the revolt. This is
also shown on the video.
This is only a portion of information that Frank Lindh is not making public
during his quest for his son's pardon.
The facts stated in this letter are documented in the following ways:
· Video from General Dostum, taken the morning of the attack, which is the video the
French reporter obtained and sold to CAPA TV, which in turn sold a small portion to 3
American TV news networks. This small portion was then shown on television showing
Mike Spann trying to talk with Lindh.
· Reports of the attack given by the prisoners at Guantánamo Bay and released by FBI,
· Eyewitness accounts: including the accounts of two Afghan doctors that I personally
spoke with while visiting Afghanistan. A Northern Alliance intel officer, and several
northern alliance soldiers. The two doctors and the intel officer are shown on the video.
· Information given to Mark Kukas, by two prisoners in Shurbergon prison.
· Information supplied by Robert Pelton, whose letter is attached.
· John Walker Lindh’s own personal statements.
* Information given to me by General Dostum and his staff
As an American, and one of many parents who have lost a child to war in order to protect our
country, I appeal to you to not allow Frank Lindh to achieve a pardon for his Al Queda, terrorist,
traitor son, John Walker Lindh, Aka: Sulleyman al Farris, Aka: Abdul Hamid
Respectfully,
Johnny Spann
P.O. Box 308

Out of curiousity why is the information you google off line any more valid and compelling than the information us "serfs" can bring to bear an any given subject?

CR or "serf" if you wish.
A man without a stick will get bitten, even by sheep.

Offline Heather

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #145 on: May 03, 2009, 07:15:02 AM »
I guess I am just naieve.  I thought war was hell!  Why do we follow a certain set of rules of war?  In my opinion why bother going to war if you aren't in it to win it.  I think that if we are at war with a country then kill all those fighting, take prisioner all those who aren't, and take their resources so they can't come to power again.  Why play nice with villans?  Call me cold hearted, but war is a neccessary evil at times, and you can't win a war by playing nice. 

Heather
Strive for complete serenity in all aspects of life.
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A closed mind is often closed to the truth!

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and loose both...Ben Franklin

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #146 on: May 03, 2009, 07:47:38 AM »
Thank you Heather, You show more backbone and insight than some of these "men" here!
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline Heather

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #147 on: May 03, 2009, 08:13:33 AM »

Heather...Because wars aren't always for winning more than they are just arranging, creating chaos, and making alot of money. Becoming what we hate or akin to our enemies don't make us any different then our enemies. Aspiring to higher ideals is not to be avoided but achieved, and to be done to avoid the Beast. I question whether wars are really a necessary evil anyway when studied a little, but I guess if somebody believes they are we're going to keep having wars brought by the warmakers. I certainly think this recent little war was contrived.

..TM7

I was commenting on the topic of war crimes in general.  As to this war I think most of you know how I feel about it.  In my opinion it is nothing more a way to push an adgenda that isn't fully clear to me at this time.  Like I said I am naive when it comes to things such as this, but if fighting a war worth fighting there should be no playing nice.

Heather
Strive for complete serenity in all aspects of life.
www.mymartialartsplus.com

A closed mind is often closed to the truth!

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and loose both...Ben Franklin

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #148 on: May 03, 2009, 08:18:09 AM »
Heather put it in simple terms!

There is no need to hate to destroy those that would destroy you! but if you do hate, God will forgive you!
If you sit back and "play nice" and let your country be attacked, only God will forgive you!

To say you become "like" your enemy to stop him and prevent him from prevailing is just what is necessary to prevail!
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #149 on: May 04, 2009, 02:55:44 AM »
Crime is the term used to decribe the breaking of a law/rule . War when it happens includes all . The idea of making rules to omit certian people or acts is foolish . In the end only the looser is punished for war crime unless there are libs  on his team to start with that have an agenda in mind !
Any rule that limits ones effectiveness is again foolish .
When one views a country that it is at war with then starts to limit who he will make war on it becomes a political nightmare that cost lives of your own people . If the war you bring down on those who have wronged you is so intense that all in his country suffer then the sane ones might stop others from attacking to begin with in the future .
JUST A THOUGHT !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !