Author Topic: Low velocity WFCGC 44 Mag for Deer (Read 4069 times)

rimfire · « **on:** April 28, 2009, 03:26:42 AM »

I tried some cheap cast 240 SWC in front of 7.5 grains Unique from my Bisley Hunter. Accuracy was rediculously good for offhand at 45 yards, and most importantly my hands did not hurt.

I am seriously considering using the 250 grain WFNGC from Beartooth with 7.5 - 8 grains Unique for close range deer...50 yards and under. I would love to hear about direct experience with cast bullets at less than 1000 fps on deer. I know it is not as clearly effective as a higher velocity HP, but will I be upset with performance? My prior experience has been with 240 XTP at over 1500 fps and performance has been very very good. Farthest a deer has ever gone is 25 yards or so. Most have dropped immediately.

With a clean entrance and exit right over the front leg can I expect a deer to go down within 50 yards? Will I find a blood trail? Again, I am looking for direct experience at lower velocities.

ccoker · « **Reply #1 on:** April 28, 2009, 04:35:53 AM »

I don't think you will have a problem

Marshall Stanton with BTB told me the other day that he had 265g WFN completely through a 400lb hog entering the front shoulder and exiting the back hind quarters at 60 yards
muzzle velocity was 1100 FPS

blhof · « **Reply #2 on:** April 28, 2009, 05:17:17 AM »

I had a 230 gr round ball at 900fps go through a deer at 70yds from my 50cal flinter, with a large exit hole and 5yds from impact. Soft lead and relatively close range should yield quick kills, if your accuracy is there.

greywolf444 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 01, 2009, 05:03:28 PM »

we use the 265 ranch dog bullet in the 44's over 9.5gr of unique for deer and it hammers them very well. complete pass thru and they don't travel far. took one 200 lb hog with this bullet using 6.0gr of trail boss. one shot in the high neck (not spine hit) and he was unable to get up. a very pleasant load for the range and it may go hunting this fall. I do like the velocity of the unique load a little better.

Mikey · « **Reply #4 on:** May 02, 2009, 01:11:06 AM »

I have used a cast 295 gn swc over 17.5 of 2400 for somewhere around 1K'/sec with complete pass through at 50+ yds. I put it just behind the front leg and they either hunch up and fall over, or run a short distance and then fall over.

crash87 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 02, 2009, 03:25:24 AM »

I have 2 loads for my Bisley Vaquero,( 4 5/8") 1 is my "midrange" load, a 250 LFN gc at 1078 fps,tin/lead mix the other is my hunting load, same bullet @ 1278fps, water dropped WW, Titegroup and Lil' Gun respectivley. I set out to have 2 loads that both printed to the same sight picture, I got lucky. My midrange is point of aim, the hunting is 3" high @ 25yds. Funny thing is I really don't use the hunting load for hunting, I like the milder recoil of the midrange load. O.K. real life hunting experience, not much 1 300# hog shot behind shoulder at 25yds, maybe.. maybe ran 30yds (I didn't measure it) but no more. Complete pass thru. My opinion would be you "Will" have the same experience with deer at 1000fps or below down to say 900. I have more experience with the 45 colt w/250 LFN pb. that one will also do what your looking for. CRASH87

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #6 on:** May 02, 2009, 04:33:23 AM »

rimfire

I've shot several deer with a 4" S&W 44 Special using Keith's load of 16.5 gr 2400 (modern case load) under the 429421 (255 gr cast of WWs and lubed). Velocity was 1060 fps. Also with the same bullet over 9 gr of Unique in .44 magnum cases out of 6 - 6.5" revolvers which gives the same 1050 fps. They killed them fine except that even with an excellent heart/lung shot you must expect most deer will travel some distance before dying. Same said with any SWC or WFN cast bullet of .41 to .45 caliber at 850 -1050 fps. The intitial results will most likely not be the same as with the XTP at 1500+ fps. However the end results will be the same...dead deer.

Larry Gibson

Mohawk · « **Reply #7 on:** May 02, 2009, 10:13:03 AM »

I would say you are fine. Something like that through the lungs is always deadly. It may run a few yards, but again, they do with high powered rifles so it isn't a big deal. You still get meat in the freezer!

rimfire · « **Reply #8 on:** May 04, 2009, 03:17:32 AM »

For those with the experience mentioned above...how far did they run when you did not hit bone? Also, did you get much of a blood trail?

Mohawk · « **Reply #9 on:** May 04, 2009, 11:38:39 PM »

From what I have observed this past season both deer I shot ran about 40 yards. Granted this was .357 4"barrel but I don't see a .44 Special at 900 fps doing any different. Both deer were shot in the chest cavity, heart/lung area. First deer didn't leave much of a blood trail, and the second one left a great blood trail, but only traveling 40 yds the blood trail was almost irrelavent. I will add that on the second deer the blood trail was from the .357" entrance wound NOT the larger exit wound . Both shots exited perfectly and left nice .50-.60 caliber exit wounds. Like I said before, I have had high powered rifles with the same shot placement do worse $:-\$

S.B. · « **Reply #10 on:** May 05, 2009, 07:33:34 AM »

Quote from: Mohawk on May 04, 2009, 11:38:39 PM

From what I have observed this past season both deer I shot ran about 40 yards. Granted this was .357 4"barrel but I don't see a .44 Special at 900 fps doing any different. Both deer were shot in the chest cavity, heart/lung area. First deer didn't leave much of a blood trail, and the second one left a great blood trail, but only traveling 40 yds the blood trail was almost irrelavent. I will add that on the second deer the blood trail was from the .357" entrance wound NOT the larger exit wound . Both shots exited perfectly and left nice .50-.60 caliber exit wounds. Like I said before, I have had high powered rifles with the same shot placement do worse $:-\$

With a bigger bullet entrance and exit holes wouldn't you have more and faster blood loss?
Steve

efremtags · « **Reply #11 on:** May 05, 2009, 12:48:04 PM »

What I have seen with hardcast in 44 in the 1000 - 1100FPS envelope is lung shot animals don't react much to the shot. They may take off and stop 40 - 50 yards away an stand there. They usually topple a few seconds after. It depends on if they see you shoot or not. This is from 2 deer and 2 wild boar.

A shoulder hit usually stirs a visible reaction, animal leans into the shot.

Blood trails like any animal involves angle and entrance height of the shot, shooting from treestands I typicaly get good exit wound. low on the outside. Blood is never an issue as I usually see the animal drop.

The only bad experience I have had was with 300GR XTP that I hit too far back. The bullet did not expand much as it left near caliber sized exit hole with little blood. Less the fault of the bullet than on my snap shot.Doubt a low or high velocity hardcast would have been much different. I was able to track down and put another in the neck to finish the job.

Mohawk · « **Reply #12 on:** May 05, 2009, 01:17:19 PM »

Quote from: S.B. on May 05, 2009, 07:33:34 AM

Quote from: Mohawk on May 04, 2009, 11:38:39 PM
From what I have observed this past season both deer I shot ran about 40 yards. Granted this was .357 4"barrel but I don't see a .44 Special at 900 fps doing any different. Both deer were shot in the chest cavity, heart/lung area. First deer didn't leave much of a blood trail, and the second one left a great blood trail, but only traveling 40 yds the blood trail was almost irrelavent. I will add that on the second deer the blood trail was from the .357" entrance wound NOT the larger exit wound . Both shots exited perfectly and left nice .50-.60 caliber exit wounds. Like I said before, I have had high powered rifles with the same shot placement do worse $:-\$
With a bigger bullet entrance and exit holes wouldn't you have more and faster blood loss?
Steve

True, unless like what happened to me, the smaller entrance hole was nearer the vascular structure, probably an artery, and the larger exit hole just puched through some muscle. So the blood was lost through the entrance wound.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #13 on:** May 05, 2009, 03:55:57 PM »

at that low of a velocity your not going to notice any differnt effect by shooting a wfn then the swc your allready shooting. Maybe and i mean maybe if the veloicity was up around 1200 you might see quicker kills but i dont know how youd prove it. Every deer dies differntly.

ccoker · « **Reply #14 on:** May 05, 2009, 05:13:10 PM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on May 05, 2009, 03:55:57 PM

Every deer dies differntly.

very true..

rimfire · « **Reply #15 on:** May 06, 2009, 03:29:20 AM »

That seems odd that there wouldn't be positives with using a WFN even at lower velocities. I would have thought the difference would be evident at any velocity. I know that at very slow 22 rimfire speeds a flatnose rimfire bullet hits harder than a roundnose, so I would expect this to translate to a WFN 44 at 900 fps.

Of course...I am full of theory with no practical experience at these low velocities with a 44 so I certainly cannot be sure...just the scientist in me wants to believe it!

Mohawk · « **Reply #16 on:** May 06, 2009, 06:07:35 AM »

You have more stretching of tissue at lower velocities. As a projectile slows it does more "slipping" through tissue instead of blowing through the tissue quickly. Just as a slower exiting hollowpoint will give a smaller "hole" and wound track than a faster hollowpoint. Example would be a block of ballistic gellatin. If a bullet penetrates a total of 15". The wound track would be smaller at say 13" than at 7" due to the bullet slowing as it penetrates.

S.B. · « **Reply #17 on:** May 06, 2009, 10:55:06 AM »

I think the size of the meplat has more to do with this than the speed of the bullet?
Steve

Mohawk · « **Reply #18 on:** May 06, 2009, 05:32:57 PM »

I agree the size of the metplat matters but for say two .44 caliber bullets with the same metplat size, the faster bullet will keep the bullet closer to "full metplat" size longer than will the slower bullet. Or course striking bone etc. will cause different things to happen. A good way to test this if you can safely do so is to take a large moving box, stuff a large batch of old towels or blankets, better if they are soaking wet and heavy, and fire a couple of SWC's through the box. The exit hole will be a little smaller and less defined than the entrance hole if the bullet remained stable flight after penetrating. The differences are sometimes easier to notice when penetrating soft tissue, hide, etc. since the stretching of tissue absorbs energy pretty quick. How this translates into the hole size in vital tissue, I have not idea. Seen many things die and the size of the hole was the last thing that ever made a difference from what I have observed. Bullet holes many remember but they never think of a "wound track". Think of it as a drinking straw. Don't concentrate on the size of the circumference of the hole, think more of the volume from one end of the straw to the other and the amount of space from top to bottom.

S.B. · « **Reply #19 on:** May 06, 2009, 06:00:08 PM »

Quote from: Mohawk on May 06, 2009, 05:32:57 PM

I agree the size of the metplat matters but for say two .44 caliber bullets with the same metplat size, the faster bullet will keep the bullet closer to "full metplat" size longer than will the slower bullet. Or course striking bone etc. will cause different things to happen. A good way to test this if you can safely do so is to take a large moving box, stuff a large batch of old towels or blankets, better if they are soaking wet and heavy, and fire a couple of SWC's through the box. The exit hole will be a little smaller and less defined than the entrance hole if the bullet remained stable flight after penetrating. The differences are sometimes easier to notice when penetrating soft tissue, hide, etc. since the stretching of tissue absorbs energy pretty quick. How this translates into the hole size in vital tissue, I have not idea. Seen many things die and the size of the hole was the last thing that ever made a difference from what I have observed. Bullet holes many remember but they never think of a "wound track". Think of it as a drinking straw. Don't concentrate on the size of the circumference of the hole, think more of the volume from one end of the straw to the other and the amount of space from top to bottom.

So, what does this translate to: the .22LR can be made to kill faster than the .500 S&W??? Oh, yea, I forgot your a fan of .357 magnums for whitetail hunting. HEHEHE
Steve

Mohawk · « **Reply #20 on:** May 06, 2009, 08:53:45 PM »

Quote from: S.B. on May 06, 2009, 06:00:08 PM

Quote from: Mohawk on May 06, 2009, 05:32:57 PM
I agree the size of the metplat matters but for say two .44 caliber bullets with the same metplat size, the faster bullet will keep the bullet closer to "full metplat" size longer than will the slower bullet. Or course striking bone etc. will cause different things to happen. A good way to test this if you can safely do so is to take a large moving box, stuff a large batch of old towels or blankets, better if they are soaking wet and heavy, and fire a couple of SWC's through the box. The exit hole will be a little smaller and less defined than the entrance hole if the bullet remained stable flight after penetrating. The differences are sometimes easier to notice when penetrating soft tissue, hide, etc. since the stretching of tissue absorbs energy pretty quick. How this translates into the hole size in vital tissue, I have not idea. Seen many things die and the size of the hole was the last thing that ever made a difference from what I have observed. Bullet holes many remember but they never think of a "wound track". Think of it as a drinking straw. Don't concentrate on the size of the circumference of the hole, think more of the volume from one end of the straw to the other and the amount of space from top to bottom.

So, what does this translate to: the .22LR can be made to kill faster than the .500 S&W??? Oh, yea, I forgot your a fan of .357 magnums for whitetail hunting. HEHEHE
Steve

Can it?

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #21 on:** May 07, 2009, 12:43:46 AM »

I dont know if i agree with this. A wfn at 800fps usually doesnt due any more damage then a lfn or swc. Increase the veloicity to 1400 fps and the wfn will allways create a much bigger wound channel but it will also usually be much shorter. Lets just put this to rest. We all know wfns suck. Lloyd has told you that before

Quote from: S.B. on May 06, 2009, 10:55:06 AM

I think the size of the meplat has more to do with this than the speed of the bullet?
Steve

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #22 on:** May 07, 2009, 12:44:18 AM »

NO!!

Quote from: Mohawk on May 06, 2009, 08:53:45 PM

Quote from: S.B. on May 06, 2009, 06:00:08 PM
Quote from: Mohawk on May 06, 2009, 05:32:57 PM
I agree the size of the metplat matters but for say two .44 caliber bullets with the same metplat size, the faster bullet will keep the bullet closer to "full metplat" size longer than will the slower bullet. Or course striking bone etc. will cause different things to happen. A good way to test this if you can safely do so is to take a large moving box, stuff a large batch of old towels or blankets, better if they are soaking wet and heavy, and fire a couple of SWC's through the box. The exit hole will be a little smaller and less defined than the entrance hole if the bullet remained stable flight after penetrating. The differences are sometimes easier to notice when penetrating soft tissue, hide, etc. since the stretching of tissue absorbs energy pretty quick. How this translates into the hole size in vital tissue, I have not idea. Seen many things die and the size of the hole was the last thing that ever made a difference from what I have observed. Bullet holes many remember but they never think of a "wound track". Think of it as a drinking straw. Don't concentrate on the size of the circumference of the hole, think more of the volume from one end of the straw to the other and the amount of space from top to bottom.

So, what does this translate to: the .22LR can be made to kill faster than the .500 S&W??? Oh, yea, I forgot your a fan of .357 magnums for whitetail hunting. HEHEHE
Steve

Can it?

Mikey · « **Reply #23 on:** May 07, 2009, 12:59:25 AM »

I think the higher velocity slugs blast on through while the slower ones 'push' on through more than slip through as a round nose fmj might. I think the flat nose slugs simply cause more damage when either pushing or blasting through by cutting through rather than slipping.

I know there is some theory to the ideas that a wfn slug with a larger metplat creates a larger wound cavity than a swc but I have seen this only in ballistic gelatin testing. In every animal I have dressed (not coat and tie), whether wfn or swc the wound channel through the muscle and viscera seems pretty consistent with the design of the bullet - a nice square hole that does not close up and causes fatal blood loss, especially if you have shot through the heart or major vessels.

I agree that the size of the metplat probably has more to do with the demise of the critter than the velocity and I will try and test this during the next big game season. I like shooting the 200 gn swc through my 38s and 357s. I have seen pictures of 200 gn wadcutters and 250 gn (?) wadcutters for heavy 357 loads and would like to try some for this upcoming season. I would think that if I am going to try and measure the effect of one slug over another then certainly a swc in comparison with a full wadcutter design should provide some noticeable affect but maybe not.

I would use the 44 but haven't found any full wadcutter bullet designs in the 300 gn range in that caliber yet.

ccoker · « **Reply #24 on:** May 07, 2009, 04:19:29 AM »

well, I am going hog hunting this weekend and hope to get to test some 255g Keiths out of my 44 at 12-1300 FPS

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #25 on:** May 08, 2009, 01:12:15 AM »

i can about gurantee you that load will work!!

ccoker · « **Reply #26 on:** May 08, 2009, 02:18:42 AM »

well, when I show up, the hogs will probably all vanish

rimfire · « **Reply #27 on:** May 08, 2009, 08:24:38 AM »

Anyone have actual chrono results for a 250 WFNGC [or similar] with anywhere from 7.5 to 10 grains of Unique and a standard primer out of a 7.5" revolver? I see huge velocity ranges in my load books for Unique and 240-265 cast bullets. My chrono is on the fritz and I am hoping to determine what charge would get me to somewhere near 1100 fps with this Beartooth 250 WFNGC. I am guessing around 9 grains after comparing a lot of data...and I am not very confident considering how inconsistent the data is.

Thanks again. I will continue to shoot the 7.5 grain load for almost all of my practice. I am sighted in a bit high at 25 yards with this load, and a bit low with a max load of H110 and a 240 XTP. I am hoping the 250 WFNGC at around 1100 fps would be about righ on so I can leave this sight setting. The Rough Country rear sight is tightened all the way down for this setting which makes it very sturdy. The loads hit one right on top of the other so it seems wingage will be good.

By the way...the Bowen Rough Country sights with the white outline target blade gives me the best sight picture of any of my open sights on any handgun right now. I just installed them and they were well worth it...and I was worried considering how much they cost.

Mikey · « **Reply #28 on:** May 08, 2009, 09:15:10 AM »

rimfire: the Beartooth website should contain loading data for their bullets; they have this information for their rifle loadings and I'm sure they will have some good information available to you. HTH.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #29 on:** May 08, 2009, 09:46:08 AM »

rimfire

Anyone have actual chrono results for a 250 WFNGC [or similar] with anywhere from 7.5 to 10 grains of Unique and a standard primer out of a 7.5" revolver? I see huge velocity ranges in my load books for Unique and 240-265 cast bullets. My chrono is on the fritz and I am hoping to determine what charge would get me to somewhere near 1100 fps with this Beartooth 250 WFNGC. I am guessing around 9 grains after comparing a lot of data...and I am not very confident considering how inconsistent the data is.

From my Ruger with 6 1/2" barrel 7.5 gr Unique under a 44-250-SWC runs 915 fps (Oehler M35P) at 15' from the muzzle. My standard "medium" .44 load is 9 gr of Unique (Alliant) under that bullet or 429421 for 1070 fps. I imagine you'd get a few more fps, maybe close to your desired 1100 fps.

Thanks again. I will continue to shoot the 7.5 grain load for almost all of my practice. I am sighted in a bit high at 25 yards with this load, and a bit low with a max load of H110 and a 240 XTP. I am hoping the 250 WFNGC at around 1100 fps would be about righ on so I can leave this sight setting. The Rough Country rear sight is tightened all the way down for this setting which makes it very sturdy. The loads hit one right on top of the other so it seems wingage will be good.

Nothing wrong with the 7.5 gr load for a practice load.

Larry Gibson