Author Topic: The perfect deer ballistics  (Read 3054 times)

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Offline rickt300

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The perfect deer ballistics
« on: April 29, 2009, 05:50:07 AM »
Anyone care to come up with the ideal ballistic level, say velocity, bullet diameter and weight? Three classifications, short, medium and long range.  Short for me would also work in the medium range, it would be a 30 caliber bullet, 165-170 grains at 2500fps.  Long range would easily be covered by a pointed 150 gr. bullet in .277 to .308 pushed to 2800fps.
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2009, 09:08:13 AM »
Well for me I have two different rifles that I would consider ideal for deer.
Both are in 308 win.
the first is a Ruger M77 with open sights and i use 180 grain round nose soft points in it. 
The big heavy round nose bullet is ideal for brush (0-50 yards) and short range(100 yards or less).  the heavy bullet goes in opens up and applies all of it's energy to the animal.  Big wound canal and the deer rarely travel any distance.  I think the heavy for caliber round nose bullets were the rise to the brush gun myth.  I think the bullets proform well and deer are not lost like the higher speed smaller for caliber bullets that zing though an animal and do not knock them down and added bonus to them is there is also very little bloodshot meat (that gooey jello like meat)
the second rifle is a Remington M700V with a 3-9X50MM scope on it, that I have sighted in with 165grain soft point boat tail bullets.
Yes the rifle is a little heavy to still hunt with but using it for medium (100 to 200) to long range (200 to 350) it works great and the bullet is perfect where I do not have to do a lot of trickey math for hold over.  Out to 300 yards I put the cross hairs on the deer and Bang.  Again I like 308 for the nice neat hole and lack of jello meat that I have seen with other loads.  Will not start that arguement of X Vs Y here.  Do I have other rifles that will kill deer... OH yea.  If I were limited to one it would e a 308 and most likely with a 3-9X38 MM Weaver scope tossing 180 grain bullets.  Pointed for long range sighted in to 200 yards and the round nose stuff for brush.

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2009, 01:38:38 PM »
My 30-30 Marlin 336 pushes a 150 grain Speer FN over 34.5 grains of Win 748 chronographed at 2173 fps and zero'd for 2.5 inches high at 100 yards gives a (-)3.3 inch low at 200 yard possibility for SHORT and MEDIUM.

My 270 Win Model 70 Classic Featherweight is 6.5 #'s w/o scope and just faster and flatter within the same range.  It pushes a 150 grain Nosler Partition over 30.5 grains of IMR 4381 chronographed at 2491 fps and zeroed for 3.0 inches high at 100 yards offers 1.0 inches high at 200 and (-)2.7 inches at 250 yards.  For some, that is not "long".  For me, it is all that I need.

Offline KAYR1

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2009, 02:59:48 PM »
Short: 350 grain Hornady FP over max load of Benchmark in my Marlin .450 lever-action, topped with 1-4x Leupold

Medium: .270 Win 140 gr Nosler Accubond handload in Remington 700 BDL (this could serve dual duty as a long range rifle), or Browning A-Bolt in 7-08, 140 grain Accu-Bond.

Long: 300WSM, 165 Gr Nosler Accu-Bond over max charge of IMR 4831, custom bolt action, topped with Burris ballistic plex scope. Dropped a nice buck at a laser-ranged 400 yards with this rig this past year. I'd not like to attempt it again, though.

I dont yet own a chrony, but that is next on the list. I am sure that I am overgunned in many cases for whitetails here, but I like it!

Offline charles p

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2009, 05:02:23 PM »
Nothing more than a 150 grain pointed bullet is necessary.  I don't go below 115 grains either.  I use calibers from .257 t0 .308.  I really can't tell much difference.  I am not sold on Ballistic Tip bullets.  Had very many mixed results.  Not necessary to use premium bullets either.  Sierra Game Kings, and Remington CoreLokts are all friends of mine. 

I think the end-all caliber is probably .284 and the ideal bullet weight is 120-140 grains.  Velocity of 2800+ is excellent. 

My all time favorite rifle caliber is the 280AI with a 140 grain bullet around 3000 fps.  Downside is barrel length.  A Rem Mod Seven in 7mm-08 is easier to carry and handle.

Offline TribReady

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2009, 05:11:44 PM »
My input is perfect and "old school":  8mm (shot of course from a pre 50's rifle either commercial sporting or military sporter)  launching 196gr bullet at 2900+ fps (Sellier & Bellot 196gr SPCE ammo to be exact).  Excellent ballistics and trajectory with a ton of punch at the end.  You don't get much better than that  ;)  IMHO  ::)
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Offline rickt300

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2009, 05:55:57 AM »
As far as whitetails go 250 yards is a pretty fur piece on the lease I hunt.  I have been using a 7x57 there for years pushing the 150 gr. Ballitic Tips at 2700fps.  I like the sudden drops.  In that thick thorny brush a deer doesn't have to go far before just moving him out to a clearing becomes a real pain.  I use both the 165 gr. Ballistic Tips and the 170 gr. round nosed corelokt at 2500fps from my 308 and 30-06 with great results also on both deer and hogs.  In the last five years the longest shot I have made on a deer has been 125 yards and the average has been 75 yards.  I could probably hunt with a 35 Remington pistol and do as well but I like my rifles.
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Offline burntmuch

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2009, 06:21:39 AM »
Im hoping my rem model 7 7mm-08 & 139 gr SSTs will be the perfect ballistics for deer out to 200 yards or so
I dont care what gun Im using as long as Im hunting

Offline rickt300

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2009, 07:53:49 AM »
I used some 180 gr. SST's in my 30-06 at full power and have to say it sure made my 06 seem overpowered!  No tracking needed.
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Offline Mt_Sourdough

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2009, 07:57:13 AM »
In Montana we have big ol' mulies for trophy bragging rights and we shoot young does for meat.  We hunt thick North Side slopes and long foot hills and valley bottoms.  The situation that you might find yourself in varies extensively.  Here, there is the fact that you might as likely find yourself looking down your rifle at an elk as you are a deer.  If you take that out of the equation and focused soley on deer, then I would say, for me, it is hard to beat the 270 and 130 grain bullets for open country and my 444 when I know I will be hunting in the timber.  Perfection is an improbility.  Perspectives are definately variable and often referred to as opinion, just like the subjective opinion on what is long range shooting and what is ethical. 
  I once posed a similar question at a friends bar on The Big Hole.  I asked an avid hunter and rifle aficianado(?) what is the best caliber for elk.  He stepped back, put his hand to his chin and pondered a smart and friendly reply.  He was saved by a colorful character who jumped in and first repeated the question.  Then he followed the question with his answer "the best caliber for elk is a 22 with the elk in the headlights of my Jeep." :o   Everbybody laughed and attention quickly turned back to less serious subjects.
  Just my perspective. ::)
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Offline rickt300

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2009, 07:54:49 AM »
well they upped the number of deer I can take in the area my lease is in to 5, 1 buck and 4 does.  Not only that but the added a late season doe and spike season.  So now the perfect deer cartridges are going to be a 44 magnum pushing a 250 gr. keith style semi wadcutter at 1700fps, a 35 Whelen pushing a 200 gr. Hornady spire point at 2400 fps, a 308 pushing a 150 gr. Speer spitzer Hotcor at 2800 fps and a 30-06 pushing a 170 gr. RNCL at 2400 fps.  The last deer will be taken with whatever else I want to try.
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Offline Siskiyou

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2009, 10:20:02 AM »

In many ways when it comes to topography and cover I find myself on the same boat as Mt_Sourdough.  During the same season I can hunt open sagebrush, Pinyon-Juniper, Oak-woodland, chaparral, Pine stands, and high altitude white, and red fir stands.  Deer can be taken from the end of the muzzle to 400 plus yards.

My Short range rifle must deliver 1000 pounds of energy at 200-yards.
For me Short range means hunting tight cover with longer shots presented across gullies.  Or storm days when weather conditions limit visibility.  When working thick cover I lean towards a rifle that is fast to get into action, make a quick follow-up shot with, or take down a second buck.
In the past a 30-30 Marlin loaded with Remington 150-grain C-L has gotten some use, but the GoTo rifle has been a Remington 760 in 270 Winchester.  When needed they do an okay job on rattlesnakes.  Starting this year the Marlin will be loaded with 160-grain Hornady LeverEvolution factory ammunition.  The Marlin might see more use because on paper the LeverEvolution ammunition extents the range.

There are a lot of good calibers are out there that fill the medium range category.  Starting with the .243 and going upslope from there.  Speed is not as critical at medium range and opens the door to bolt action rifles.  I favor the 270 Winchester in bolt action or pump.  A bolt action 300 Savage with a 165-grain bullet loaded to 2670 fps., and the 6.5 Swede are good.  If it is a combination deer and bear hunt I leave the .243 home.

Long range for me is 400-yards.  I am talking about shooting across a deep canyon where it is going to take 30-to-60 minutes to scramble across rocks and vegetation to get to my target after the shot.  The game will be out of sight after the shot and might get up.  I want a bullet that will leave an exit hole, and knock the target down.  My preferred rifle for this job is a 7MM Remington Magnum loaded with a 160-grain Speer Spitzer at close to 3000 fps. 

My second choice would be a 270 Winchester pushing a 140-grain Hornady BT at 3030 fps.  Both the 7 Mag load and the 270 load share the same ballistic profile.  Long hike, the lighter 270 is the go-to rifle.

At one time there was the king of kings, a 30-06 in the mix loaded with 165-grain Hornady bullets at about 2900 feet per second.  It easily fills all the slots, except it was on the heavy side.

Where I hunt it is a crap shoot, I took a buck at 32.5 yards last year with a bolt action 270 Winchester.  The shot could have been made with a 30-30, .44 Magnum, 243 Winchester, but I used what I had at the time.  I believe the action at times makes the difference between filling a tag or not filling a tag.  I was standing on a rocky point sticking out of buck brush when a large buck trotted into view across a drainage.  I missed my first shot, but a quick follow-up shot behind the shoulder dropped him.  I rather doubt that I could have made the follow-up shot with a bolt action.  The energy and damage done by the 150-grain bullet from the .270 did the job.  Most of the calibers listed for the Remington 760/7600 would have done the job.

I am left eye dominate, and I do not have 20-20 vision.  A scope has been a great boost to my shooting ability.  Using a scope I can shoot off the right or left shoulder without a problem.

At all ranges an effective deer rifle is dependent on fit, sighting equipment, and energy expended on the target. 

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Offline trex1310

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2009, 11:43:30 AM »
Having hunted deer for the past 50+ years with all calibers of rifles and shotguns. I finally
settled on a Ruger M77 (in 1987)  in 7x57 with a 139gr Hornady Custom and a fixed 8x S&B.
No deer has ever walked away from this rifle. It still shoots better than I now can.
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Offline srwshooter

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2009, 11:28:04 AM »
i'll take the 140grn hornady interlock in the 270win ,i've killed somewhere around 150 whitetails with it out about 400yds.

Offline Dee

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2009, 02:57:42 PM »
Having owned the same Winchester Model 94 in 3030 for the last 51 years, I would say that it has the perfect ballistic levels for deer. I have owned about everything there is for deer, and killed deer with them, but when I was about 48 years old I noticed something odd.
Regardless of what I shot the deer with, if I hit him right he died. Damndest thing I ever saw. Then I got to thinking. What were the stats on these calibers? You know. Things like "kinetic energy", hydrostatic shock", bullet weight to velocity ratio, and something dawned on me again! DEER CAN'T READ! WHAT A REVELATION! DEER ACTUALLY CAN NOT READ!
So then I calmed myself, after realizing this by drinking a whiskey and coke (Gentleman Jack of course), and thought. Who the hell cares about all that? You hit'em where it counts and their all perfect. ;)
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Offline Wyo. Coyote Hunter

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2009, 03:32:36 PM »
 :D Unlike Dee, I love to try different calibers on big game. Deer are my favorite big game. ;) There are deer and there are DEER. When I hunted in Tx. one of the first trips, I was allowed to shoot 3 or 4 does on the hunt. The first one I took was a real surprise. The ranch  I was hunting had lots of deer. As the first day drew to a close, I decided to fill one of my doe tags. A small herd of deer was feeding and I selected the biggest out of the lot. I used a 243 if I remember correctly, at the shot it dropped. When I got to it,I felt like a bambi murderer, it was very small. At camp, I was embarassed to bring it in, but found it was a big doe for the area. ;D Bucks were a bit bigger, but not much. :-\ In W. Va. the area I hunted, the deer ran a good bit smaller than deer shot in central Pa.  :-\
Some of the mulies we have hung up in Wy. were horses compared to these deer. A couple I could only load in the truck by hauling them to a drop with the pickup and rolling them on the tail gate.  ;D So when we talk about perfect deer ballistics, there is a wide range of animals, and hunting conditions. In W. VA. and Tx. deer were shot over bait. One often had time to select his animal, and make a perfect shot. Here a lighter rifle would work well. Also I suppose in much of the south, where deer are shot over food plots usually from a selected stand. So ranges are known. 8) In Pa. conditions were different. No bait. Often in the areas I hunted heavy pressure. One had to make a shot in short order and have the animal down in a short distance or some vulture would have a tag on it before you found it. :(  Here in Wy. ranges can tend to be long, unknown, and the deer much bigger than other areas I have hunted. Not all bucks are horses, but when one lucks on to a big one they are awsome. ;D Some have to be seen to be believed. Usually, old trophy mulies make very few mistakes. When they do, you must take advantage. You won't get a second chance a few days later in the same food plot, or bait pile. For example, one of my pals hunting the wilderness in the western part of the state found a mulie with a 40" + spread. There were four hunters in camp, it was decided to make a stalk the first morning from the four escape routes, someone was bound to tag this trophy of 3 life times. 8) When the stalk began, the old buck was laying on his point where he had been for several days. When the stalk was over, he was gone, never returned, and no one had seen him escape. ;D >:( So when we talk about perfect deer ballistics much ground is covered. For much deer hunting though the south and east, the old .30-30 is good for close cover. With country like Pa. that has lots of pressure, I used my grandfathers old .30-06 to good effect plus several magnum rifles for shooting across strip mines. ;D These or the .270 class would suit for shooting on food plots in the south. For the west, last season I used a .30-30, .300 Sav. and 7mm-08. On some of these hunts I did not expect a chance at a trophy buck. But any where I hunted that I had a chance at a real whopper, I carried one of my .300's or 7mm mags. If that magical monster buck ever crosses my path, I want to make the most of it. It may not occur for several more life times. :D >:( ;) ;D

Offline rickt300

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2009, 12:26:58 PM »
I guess I wandered from the premise of the perfect deer ballistics.  When I moved from Texas to Wyoming in the late 70's I had but one big game rifle, my custom Springfield 30-06.  Working in the oilfield and traveling a lot I had but two rifles, the 30-06 and a Remington 788 in 223.  The old Springfield rifle did it all and well too. I used this rifle for a while after I moved back from Texas and found it to be a bit long for box stands and a bit much for deer generally weighing 100-180 pounds at ranges under 100 yards.  Since I had settled down somewhat I began fooling with lots of different rifles and shooting a lot of deer.  I built a 7x57 on an intermediate action with a 19 inch barrel.  The reality of it is that it has the perfect ballistics for use on deer in Texas and is plenty for feral hogs.  I also have a similarly built 308 that I load about the same way I do the 7x57, a 150-165 grain bullet near 2700 fps.  I agree that the perfect rifle is the one you can put your bullets in the right place with.
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Offline Dinny

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2009, 10:01:57 AM »
Although it's not exactly what you're asking for but, I learned that 1000 ft lbs of energy at whatever distance is enough to kill most deer.  There are exceptions to this rule, as always the case. Large caliber bullets and 6.5 mm bullets account for the majority of these exceptions.  ;) BLUF, bullet placement is always the most important factor. With that being said, shoot only the largest caliber you feel completely comfortable with.

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Offline mannyrock

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2009, 10:24:27 AM »

  My brother is a big time deer hunter, killing 8 to 10 whitetails a year for the past 35 years.  He hunts in every conceivable terrain.  During those 35 years, he has swung through all of the major deer cartridges,  including over-kill rounds like the 7 Mag,  middle rounds like the .30-06, light rounds like the .243, and big bore rounds like the .45-70. 

    About 10 years ago, he "discovered" the 7mm-08, with factory loaded 140 Remington Core-Lokts.  Once he found it, he has stayed with it for 10 years, getting rid of all of his other rifles.  He says it is absolutely perfect and he simply doesn't need anything else.  He only loads 2 rounds in his rifle, and has only used the 2nd round a couple of times, on deer that were already down.

  That's good enough for me, and seems to track those who have found the good old 7x57 mauser a perfect deer round as well.

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Offline poncaguy

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2009, 02:50:31 PM »
Will use my Ruger Hawkeye 338 Federal for short and medium range and my 270 WSM 110 TTSX Barnes for long range. Took a doe at 347 yards last day of season last year with that 3800 FPS round, she went 15 yards.......

Offline Wyo. Coyote Hunter

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2009, 02:54:22 PM »
 ;)mannyrock, you mentioned your brother hunting whitetails with the 7mm-08. What states does he mainly hunt???

Offline mannyrock

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2009, 06:40:00 AM »
Wyo Coyote Hunter,

  My brother hunts primarily in Virginia, and in Tennessee, where shots are anywhere from 25 yards in the deep woods, to 250 yards across a big soybean field.   I doubt he would ever attempt a shot past 250 yards, even if a good one presented itself.   I don't hunt but about 1/4th the amount he does, and I always use a .308  Winchester.  But, he much prefers the 7mm-08 to the .308.  He says it shoots a little flatter, and has better penetration, and less recoil.

   By the way, John Wooters, who was probably the biggest whitetail hunter among all of the major gun magazine writers, pronounced the .308 Winchester as the most perfect whitetail cartridge of all time, and he used it for 40 years.  Of course, the 7mm-08 was probably not invented until much later in his life.  :-)

Regards,

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Offline john keyes

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2009, 10:10:21 AM »
the most instantaneous bang flops I have ever had were from a 30-30 with 170 gr ammo.   There is a lot to be said for a big roundnose or flat tip bullet, but you need velocity too and I think the 30-30 is the middle of the road between the big bore levers and the bottlenecked bolt guns.

at least around 100 yds...
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Offline jdt48653

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2009, 02:04:29 PM »
my 264 win covers the spectrum well with 140sps

Offline Blue Duck

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2009, 04:40:29 AM »
Interesting subject.  Its good to talk about but dead is dead and there are lots of fine calibers. 

Offline jdt48653

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2009, 06:42:53 PM »
AMEN TO THAT

Offline JASmith

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2009, 06:49:01 PM »
I liked the discussions, but go lost because I couldn't find a definition of "short," "medium," or "long" ranges. 

For some of us, short is under about 30 yards, while for others, it's anything under 250 yards.   Similarly, some folks look at long range as being anything more than 150 yards, while some folks think that long range doesn't start until 500 or 600 yards.

How do we get a community consensus?

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2009, 03:14:18 AM »
I think the Short, Medium, and long really depend on where you hunt.
When I hunted in Upstate NY
Short- under 30 yards
Meduim-under 50 yards
and long was 100 yards
In NC
Short is under 75 yards (In the open woods)
Meduim is under 150 (across the field)
Long is out to well out as we have about 1,000 yards + across the farm. well past my ability of 350 yards.
When in MT or ID
short is under 100 yards.
Meduim is under 250 yards,
and friends there 500 is a ways out there (again beyound my ability) and talk of 400-600 yard shots on deer and elk.

Offline schoolmaster

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2009, 03:48:15 AM »
For me short range is 100 yards and under. For this I pick my old Ithaca deerslayer 26 inch smooth bored barrel loaded with Brenneke short magnum slugs and 4x scope with post and cross hair. Will shoot into 4 inches at 100 yards and makes massive holes in deer shot through ribs. Medium range would be 100 to 200 yards and I would pick my 45 Pac Nor barreled Savage muzzleloader. Shoots a 195 Barnes Expander into 1 inch at 200 at 2600 f/s. It is topped with a Leupold 3.5x10 VXIII with Boone and Crockett x hairs. Long range would be 300 to 400 yards as far as I feel I can shoot accurately. Now I can't use this rifle in Indiana but in Wisconsin where I hunt this rifle covers a large grown up weed field from a platform tower. It is a 740 Remington Woodmaster in 30-06 and wears a Burris 2x7 with BP. This rifle shoots Remington factory pointed corelocts 180 grain into 1 inch at 100 yards. I believe I could take this Remington anywhere it is legal to hunt with and not feel handicapped.

Offline JASmith

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Re: The perfect deer ballistics
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2009, 04:32:30 PM »
So, the definitions depend largely on where we hunt. 

Another way of thinking about it might be: "Short is within the max range where one can reasonably hit with an arrow,"  "Medium = 'max point blank range' for the rifle and ammunition applied to the target's vital zone," and "Long = max range where Tennessee Elevation is comfortable for your rifle, ammunition, and sighting equipment." 

This is a fluid definition and doesn't completely take into account individual skills and responsible use of those skills, but I hope it helps enliven the discussion. 

There is also a community of "ultra-long" range shooters that like to use target or sniping scopes and very precise range estimation.  These folks become very good at wind doping and usually hunt in pairs.  One is the shooter, the other helps with range measurement, wind doping, calculating sight settings and spotting the shot for corrections of follow-up shots.  Most of us don't have the equipment and lack the time needed to develop the skill and judgment needed to humanely take game at these longer ranges.