Author Topic: Newbie frustration (Read 852 times)

Wisparkyg · « **on:** April 29, 2009, 02:32:43 PM »

Hello all I have been lurking around the forums for awhile and finally have cause to post. I have finally decided to try reloading. (No jokes about my timing please. )

This is my issue: I finally went to purchase powder and primers for some 30/30 contender and 30-06 loads. Of course I could not get the powder and primer that I had so carefully planned and decided on(IMR 4895 and Win LR). The best I could do was WIN 760 and CCI primers. So of course none of my load data specifies these two in combo and since I have been reading posts and manuals for a bit, I am under the understanding if I don't have a tested recipe with this combo, I am stuck.

Except...In my Lee manual, it only states to use STANDARD primers not any specific. So am I wrong to think I can use the CCI primers with the Lee data?
Exp:
30/30
150 gr. jacketed
WIN 760
Start Load: 35.9 GR

TIA

KAYR1 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 29, 2009, 02:39:17 PM »

I hope that others will join in here. We all feel your pain, and we all went through it when we were starting out. As far as primers go, use the primers that the manual uses (large rifle, magnum, etc). Brand shouldnt be as important as the type of primer used. HOWEVER, always start at the starting loads when changing anything, and work up carefully from there.

Also, every caliber/cartridge has at least sveral different powders that are compatible with it. They are NOT interchangeable, however. You must use the starting loads for each particular brand/burning rate of powder.

Who knows, even though you cant get the components that you thought you needed, you may just stumble onto the right loads for your guns with what you have. I'm not preaching, but always consult your manuals, or several of them. The data will vary, but start low and work up slowly, and you should be fine. Good luck

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 29, 2009, 03:18:37 PM »

TIA

Welcome to the sometimes con-fuzzeling world of handloading , as far as the CCI primers , you'll be find as long as you do as KAYR1 said and start low . Remember that the reloading manuals are only a guide , not a MUST DO IT THIS WAY .

The load data that is given in the books was designed to give the loader a place to start , as no 2 guns are the same , as are any 2 powder lots or any 2 batches of primers .

Any time you change a peice of the puzzle , you need to start over , just the nature of the beast .

stimpy

PS -- Welcome to GBO , we'll help any way we can .

Autorim · « **Reply #3 on:** April 29, 2009, 04:27:20 PM »

Your original choices were right on. IMR 4895 can probably be used in more calibers than about any powder. 760 should work great in the 30-06, but IMO is slow for the 30-30. If you begin with the start loads, the CCI primers and 760 may work OK in the 30-30. I don't think you will create a dangerous overload with 760 in the 30-30, but it will likely not achieve optimum performance as it may not burn completely.

wncchester · « **Reply #4 on:** April 30, 2009, 06:45:44 AM »

"In my Lee manual, it only states to use STANDARD primers not any specific."

Don't sweat what primer or case or OAL or crimp or brand of bullets of a given weight you use. Following the book's instructions to "Start low and only move up if no signs of high pressure appear" takes care of the variables.

skb2706 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 30, 2009, 07:26:10 AM »

No problem using CCI primers in place of.

I finally found a post that used the word "finally" three times in the first three sentences....finally. LOL

MnMike · « **Reply #6 on:** April 30, 2009, 05:37:12 PM »

I am sure that others have a different opinion, but I think that primers are a minor part of load development. I just use Winchester primers for reloading. It simplifies my stock of components. If I am using a load that specifies a different primer, I will start a bit low and work up.

I did learn one lesson about primers. If a load says to use Magnum primers, pay attention. I spent a bit of time poking out bullets from my Hungarian straight pull bolt rifle that got there because regular primers will not reliably light off ball powders -especially in Mn winters.

mike

Wisparkyg · « **Reply #7 on:** May 01, 2009, 02:51:57 AM »

Thanks guys I feel a little more comfortable.

Reducing a max load by 10% is what I gather is common practice when working up a load. I would not then have to worry about the primer issue anyway, would I?

skb - Is you making fun of me?

skb2706 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 01, 2009, 03:52:15 AM »

Quote from: Wisparkyg on May 01, 2009, 02:51:57 AM

Thanks guys I feel a little more comfortable.

Reducing a max load by 10% is what I gather is common practice when working up a load. I would not then have to worry about the primer issue anyway, would I?

skb - Is you making fun of me?

who me ? No idea why I noticed that

Don't be afraid to ask questions in spite of me.

tiger yat · « **Reply #9 on:** May 01, 2009, 04:40:23 AM »

Be glad you got something to work with already. I recently decided to start reloading too. I got dies for 38 Special, 44 Mag, and 270. I chose 3 different powders (American Select, 2400 and Reloader 19) and 3 different primers. I quickly found out the few dealers around NOLA were out of powder and primers. I was told that the best place to get it was at a gun-show, but they are marked up about 100%.

I ended up burning all my Cabelas points ordering the powder and primers online, but the wait varies from 2-7 weeks depending on the item. Prices seemed decent and the HazMat fee applies to the whole order, not to each individual item so it was not that expensive.

But I am still waiting........

Bart Solo · « **Reply #10 on:** May 01, 2009, 05:00:22 AM »

A lot of fussy folk in the reloading community get worked up about which brand of primer they are using. The loading logs want you to record the kind of primer. As long as you are using the right size primer (Large Pistol, Large Rifle, Magnum etc) you will probably not be able to tell the difference between primer brands.

Always start low and work up. One thing not mentioned is that the never exceed loads found in the manuals are the real never exceed loads. There is no margin for error built in to the loading data. If you go beyond the never exceed load you are very much on your own and likely to break something in the process.

For me the most important goal when reloading is consistency. If you reload 20 30-06 cases you need to strive to make all 20 as alike as humanly possible. That means measuring case length, measuring powder weight, measuring OAL of the cartridge and every other variable you can think of. The only way you can ever hope to achieve outstanding accuracy is to make sure every bullet in a batch just like every other. Oh, the most accurate loads are not always found at the ragged edge. If you find a combination that really works, use it even if it is a few fps slower than what is possible.

Whatever you do, don't mix powder. If you have multiple cans of powder in your magazine only pull one can out at a time and read the label out loud. Loading 50 grains of a fast burning pistol powder in a 30-06 case could ruin your whole day.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #11 on:** May 01, 2009, 11:05:46 AM »

You may think im a jerk for saying it this way but if your a beginner you have no bussiness loading any recipe that doesnt come directly for a loading manual and i mean right to the tee. Dont vary a thing and surely dont get your advice from the internet. this is a dangerous situation that is being created. Many many people taking up loading all at once and components are not available. Someone is going to get hurt mix matching componets.

MrJames680 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 01, 2009, 11:24:25 AM »

Quote

Loading 50 grains of a fast burning pistol powder in a 30-06 case could ruin your whole day.

LOL

As a newbie reloader myself, I cannot tell you how many times I have been told to stick to the manual.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #13 on:** May 02, 2009, 02:54:02 AM »

Lloyd, I don't think you are being a jerk at all.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #14 on:** May 02, 2009, 07:07:49 AM »

I have been thinking about Lloyd's comment that new reloaders shouldn't solicit advice from the internet. While I totally agree that every new reloader should buy, read and follow a good manual or two to the letter, I sure wish I had enjoyed a chance to ask questions when I was learning to reload rifle cartridges back in the early 70s. Back then I didn't know anybody who reloaded. I wish I had been able to pick up the phone and ask a question. As it was, I had to approach everything from the four corners of the loading manual. Fortunately, I am a very cautious person and nothing ever went boom when it wasn't expected to go boom. I must admit my first reloads were pretty shaky. (The same can be said for my first straight walled pistol rounds some months ago.) After a few hundred rounds and many hours I got better. I might have gotten better faster if I had been able to ask questions of folks on the internet.

MrJames680 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 02, 2009, 08:42:30 AM »

Remember that people who reload are very much into their hobby. They want to see others be successful and safe. Advise like Lloyd's is only meant to keep you safe and help you be successful and enjoy your hobby. I cant speak for everyone but my best guess is that no one here would want you to be turned off to your new reloading hobby due to a mishap.

I am all for supporting my sports and my hobbies in others. My guess is that is where Lloyd's comment comes from. As a fishing guide I try my darnedest to have any new fishermen/fisherwomen catch a fish. I am firm on the do's and dont's to keep them, me, and my environment safe and clean to that others can enjoy. A dangerous reload

Quote

Loading 50 grains of a fast burning pistol powder in a 30-06 case could ruin your whole day.

could ruin the guy next to you day as well.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #16 on:** May 03, 2009, 02:56:15 AM »

my point isnt that theres not good info and good people on the internet. you just need some experience loading to know the good from the bad. There are alot of people on the internet that dont know a dammed thing other then what some other guy posts and you know the experiment in grade school where the teacher tells a kid somethng and then has him pass it around the class to see what the last kids says. There are also idiots that think they know more then whats in the loading manual and think that they can use max loads in the books for starting points and quit when theyve either locked up a bolt or blew up a gun. What i see a ton of on the internet is guys who use the wrong powder for the load and round there loading for. they buy 2 one lb cans of powder and think there going to load for everything. They get a new gun and there to cheap to spend 20 bucks on a lb of powder for it. Lots of good info for a beginner on the internet though. You can find out what bullets guys have had the best luck with. What brass people like and what primers people prefer but DONT EVER take someones load and shoot it without checking a loading manual to see if its safe. If its not there dont use it. Its tough to shoot and load if your blind!!!

blhof · « **Reply #17 on:** May 03, 2009, 08:02:51 AM »

One internet source of reliable information is the manufacturer's websites. Most have very complete data for most bullet/ powder combo's and contact info if it's not listed. I usually check the powder manufacturers site if I have to change powder due to lack of availability.

Robert357 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 04, 2009, 05:29:03 AM »

First as a new reloader, be cautious.

Do not trust any single source of reloading information!
Even though some feel that the power manufacturer is the best source, I do not. The reason is that I have the print out for Alliant 2400 powder and a certain 357 Mag 158 grain bullet load from the Alliant website. I put together a set of work up rounds differing in 0.2 gain increments and went to the range. As I got into the middle of my work up, I started to become concerned over the signs of overpressure I was seeing in my Ruger Blackhawk 357 Mag. I kept going as I was well below the "powder manufacturer's max and the Blackhawk is one strong revolver." I finally on a very hard extraction decided I was going to chicken out. I felt like a wimp.

I got home and pulled the powder for a bunch of cases that I hadn't shot because there were over pressure signs. I started to check around and within a couple weeks Alliant had changed their website very quitely and lowered the max powder load below where I stopped.

Again, on a new caliber/bullet combination, I try to check at least three sources for beginning load work-ups. I also look for signs of overpress and STOP at the first sign (now, I trust what I see more than what I read).

As to load work-ups on rifles like you 30-30 may I suggest a couple of thoughts. First only load one or at most two rounds if your 30-30 has a tube magazine as the number of rounds in the tube will change the point of impact for the bullets. (JUST RE-READ YOU POST ABOUT IT BEING A 30-30 CONTENDER---enjoy your handgun and disregard the lever fire comments.)

A second suggestion is to try doing a Ladder work up for the most accurate round.
http://kingfisher.0catch.com/guns/laddertest.explanation.html

I have a Marlin 336 in 30-30 with a scope and with a load I worked up can hit 10-ring at 100 yards off of a rest. I know some guys at the gun range I belong to who use a rolling block with 30-30 in bench rest competition. The 30-30 can be one heck of an accurate round.

Good luck, have fun, but be careful and ALWAYS LOOK FOR SIGNS OF OVER-PRESSURE.

Wisparkyg · « **Reply #19 on:** May 04, 2009, 03:02:49 PM »

Thanks for the input/suggetions advice. You guys have have already dealt with the STEEP learning curve of a beginning reloader and I am not trying to take short cuts just learn from others experience.

Lloyd I don't think your comments are jerky. I think one must take "internet" information as we do from everyday life. We all know people who have a lot of advice that we would not or should not follow, The trick is paying attention to them of time to glean those who speak of what they know and those who just speak.

Being that I don't have anyone who I know reloads, it is good that there are people that one can fund who are willing to help.