Author Topic: You call this a bankruptcy! This is an outrage! (Read 2172 times)

Questor · « **on:** April 30, 2009, 03:56:11 PM »

I find it difficult to understand what "bankruptcy" means in a case like Chrysler's, where jobs are not to be lost and unions can't be discarded. I also find it amazing that Obama says that the creditors have a share in the sacrifice. They're creditors, for God's sake! They want their money back, and bankruptcy is the mechanism by which to do it.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #1 on:** April 30, 2009, 04:08:32 PM »

You caught that too, did ya! Yep not only did they not shed the union, the union will own 55 % of the company FOR FREE!! Now thats a vote getter I'll bet! I'm wondering now is the union gonna strike against the union management?

Of course now, they wont have any reason to strike, cause their new bosses(them) will feel their pain, and pay whatever they want. Reckon the cost of cars will go up any?

Questor · « **Reply #2 on:** April 30, 2009, 04:11:25 PM »

Detroit is just a Kalamazoo of the 1970s. The place emptied out so fast it was amazing.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 01, 2009, 12:05:10 AM »

Quote from: Oldshooter on April 30, 2009, 04:08:32 PM

You caught that too, did ya! Yep not only did they not shed the union, the union will own 55 % of the company FOR FREE!! Now thats a vote getter I'll bet! I'm wondering now is the union gonna strike against the union management? Of course now, they wont have any reason to strike, cause their new bosses(them) will feel their pain, and pay whatever they want. Reckon the cost of cars will go up any?

Maybe the lazy union bums will go one strike against the consumers for not buying the over priced garbage GM makes.

Mikey · « **Reply #4 on:** May 01, 2009, 12:51:13 AM »

No! It's not bankrupsy. It's a bailout, which means obama has paid off the debt and given management to the union. Now you're going to see how badly unions and the government run a business and why government has always had to stay out of business - on accounta they can't do it right.

Now watch - Gm is getting rid of Saturn, or maybe vice versa and FORD is the only car company that said no thanks to bailout $, so I'll just betcha we get another Haupmobile or Packard or maybe even another Hudson out of GM for a few years but then you will see what crap they produce.

Oh yeah, Cadillac will be the new Studebaker. When they used to say 'smoke'm up on the way out of the lot' they don't mean the tires - it's usually the engine on those that started smokin' before the thing even left the lot.

Nope! Not bankrupsy, just a dollar give away. And the real problem is that he suckered the dumbest of all Americans into buying his scheme, which was not hard to do as they are quite stupid and should not be allowed to vote, because now he will just continue to raise the amount every year and they will continue to say yes to their new Masta..... I think we truly do need another revolution.

ironglow · « **Reply #5 on:** May 01, 2009, 01:07:21 AM »

I won't buy another "union made" vehicle..and will avoid union made products. Now days, the unions are obviously part of the creeping Fascism cabal...

Dee · « **Reply #6 on:** May 01, 2009, 01:43:07 AM »

The unions have been for years a government allowed form of mafia. They in the past have performed "hits" on union officials, and have strong armed the car companies. Anytime they did not get their way, they threatened strike and the government backed them EVERY TIME.
I can remember in past times when the car companies TRIED TO STAND UP AGAINST THEM, and the government swooped in and supported the unions. Union votes are EVERYTHING to the D.C.'ers. I now own a Jeep and an 07 Chrysler 300. I like both cars very well and the 300 I am fortunate enough to have paid for. However, just like the monopolized voting system (Democrat-Republican) I am abandoning American car companies after these two vehicles are gone, just as I will not WILLINGLLY support the mafia styled unions.
As far as the Republican party it in my opinion is irreparable as it remains infested with closet democrats, and middle of the road liberals.
It is long since PAST DUE, to bring in a THIRD party. The present two have abandoned the people, and no longer know or care what "we the people" want or need.
This "MOCK BANKRUPTCY" is yet "another" smoke and mirrors takeover, and the RULING CLASS, both Democrat and Republican parties think we are too stupid to see thru the smoke.
At the present time the Republican Party is a NON-EVENT, and it is an excellent opportunity to replace them.

Questor · « **Reply #7 on:** May 01, 2009, 01:51:53 AM »

Mikey, well done. Now I learn that this bankruptcy will include another 7 billion dollars in government money to Chrysler. Amazing! Where to I get in line to get a bankruptcy deal like that?

newstart2k · « **Reply #8 on:** May 01, 2009, 02:37:25 AM »

Dee,

Make sure you don't buy anything from Browning, Carhartt, Colt or Savage either. They're all union made in the US.

gypsyman · « **Reply #9 on:** May 01, 2009, 02:57:33 AM »

It will not matter that much anyway. People just don't have the money to buy new vehicle's at this point and time. I don't care who is going to run the company, it's going to fail. The unions will find out in short order, what it's like to run a company. And they'll screw it up, and probably go back to the govt. and ask for more money. And at that point and time, govt. will have to tell them no, as the outrage is building with the common man. People are getting real tired, real fast of the payouts,bailouts,stimulis BS thats taking place. It will come to an end here shortly. gypsyman

jdinil · « **Reply #10 on:** May 01, 2009, 04:32:21 AM »

I'll be happily buying more Dodge Cummins pickups. We alway keep two of them around here, a 2500 and a 3500. I can't use a Rice pickup. Need something that will pull a wagon or trailer, something that will work! Also keep 2 Buicks. When trade in time rolls around again, I'll happily buy the new Dodges and Buicks.

WolfTrap · « **Reply #11 on:** May 01, 2009, 05:08:23 AM »

Quote from: jdinil on May 01, 2009, 04:32:21 AM

I'll be happily buying more Dodge Cummins pickups. We alway keep two of them around here, a 2500 and a 3500. I can't use a Rice pickup. Need something that will pull a wagon or trailer, something that will work! Also keep 2 Buicks. When trade in time rolls around again, I'll happily buy the new Dodges and Buicks.

Since I own both homegrown and overseas vehicles, I'll try to buy "Made in America" products!
Let's see:
55 inch Flat Monitor TV's?
Still Camera's?
Video Camera's?
Sheet's?
Blankets?
Computers?
Monster printers for the masses?
4X4 Quads for Hunting?
Lamps?
Light bulbs?
Bait?
Bluetooth?
Blackberry?
Cell phones?
Low cost laptops?
$70,000 Italian shotguns?
Big Five "Everything Reduced" sales addict!
4X8 Dry Wall?
Cocktail Blenders
Computer driven Irons?
Latest 22 inch computer monitor?
Latest fish finder
Latest in-dash Music/Video keep the kids quite system?
Latest Pro Euro Golf Clubs?
Latest BMW?
Latest Mercedes?
Latest 917 Turbo?
Latest $1000 Reel made in Japan?
Latest....
Latest..
Latest.
Too Late Gentlemen!
We're Phuc!
Wolftrap

Dee · « **Reply #12 on:** May 01, 2009, 06:25:39 AM »

Quote from: newstart2k on May 01, 2009, 02:37:25 AM

Dee,

Make sure you don't buy anything from Browning, Carhartt, Colt or Savage either. They're all union made in the US.

No problem newstart2k. I have all the American made guns, and coats I need at my age. I wasn't aware however that the UAW was in Browning, Carhartt, Colt or Savage. You wouldn't be trying to make a statement by stepping a little out of context would you?

newstart2k · « **Reply #13 on:** May 01, 2009, 06:28:16 AM »

Hey WolfTrap,

Let me know which Mercedes, Hyundai or Honda you interested in. We make a whole bunch of 'em right here in Alabama.

Dee,

Who me, step out of context in our absolute black and white world, never.

Dee · « **Reply #14 on:** May 01, 2009, 06:30:33 AM »

Default · « **Reply #15 on:** May 01, 2009, 06:51:31 AM »

Wolftrap made a damn fine point .

We arent buying american made , Havent been for years ..

Hell I heard that the Big dogs of Ford when they were addressing the move to mexico to the employees said " You want to know why ? Just look in the parking lot as your leaving today "

It really is a shame ... To think , that what made us a power to be dealt with in the starting days of WW2 was our ability to turn our normal industries into war making vehicles to drive us to victory ... Hell Singer sewwing machine company made M1 Carbines

Now look at us and our wally world addiction .. And yes I'm as guilty as anyone else.

I recall an article I read about a family that decided to buy american and american only for like a year or some time frame like that and couldnt make it 2 months , They said it just wasnt possible..

A truely sad state of affairs all the way around...

Keep your powder dry boys ,

Default

DDZ · « **Reply #16 on:** May 01, 2009, 01:51:58 PM »

Anyone that bought a Ford, GM, or Dodge, because they thought they were buying American made, needs to look at where thier auto was made. It may have been made in Mexico.

The UAW is a big part of why the big three are in trouble. Along with the continued redesigned junk they keep coming out with. The UAW has been holding the car companys hostage for higher wages and more of everything. Vacation, personal time, more health insurance, flex time, leave from work for a drug problem, or alcohol problem. On top of this union workers have become so comfortable and protected they lose thier incentive to work. Companys can not weed out bad employees because of over powered unions. The good employees have no incentive to work hard because they are going to get the same thing the lazy employee gets. Good workers are even pressured by the union, not to go the extra mile for the company. All that unions do, is help workers exploit employers. Is it any wonder the big three can't stay afloat without the aid of tax payers.

Dee · « **Reply #17 on:** May 01, 2009, 02:03:11 PM »

I until a couple of months ago was driving an 06 Chevy Silverado I traded a 2000 Jeep for. It was new when I bought it and it was an ok truck, but it was still a truck.
So! I after a couple of years started looking for another 2000 Jeep with low mileage. I found a really clean one with low mileage and traded the Silverado for a 9 year old jeep. I like that model and motor and consider it a better vehicle than the truck. JMO.

Foxxtrot · « **Reply #18 on:** May 01, 2009, 03:52:12 PM »

Watch this from a few years back.

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/225/index.html

employees speak out
http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/225/gm-employees.html

WolfTrap · « **Reply #19 on:** May 02, 2009, 06:51:02 AM »

Quote from: newstart2k on May 01, 2009, 06:28:16 AM

Hey WolfTrap,

Let me know which Mercedes, Hyundai or Honda you interested in. We make a whole bunch of 'em right here in Alabama.

Dee,

Who me, step out of context in our absolute black and white world, never.

Ah...yes!
Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina and Georgia!
The Mecca of Industries great push into centuries of uneducated/unskilled depressed populations willing to slave for crumbs compared to their Northern and Western Brethren?
Dee, Jim Crow/Carpet-Bagger (Absolute Black n White World) aren't dead....they've just has taken on the mask of Janus the Savior!
WolfTrap
PS: I've been to the towns outside the so called prosperous Cities of the "New Southern States" and they are as backward and poor... going 30 years back before the "Great Foreign Invasion" as ever!

magooch · « **Reply #20 on:** May 03, 2009, 04:34:12 AM »

I don't think it's right to condemn all unions because the United Auto Workers have been successful in obtaining good wages and benefits in the past. Obviously, they are going to have to make some very painful concessions and it's quite possible that an awful lot of the auto workers are going to lose their jobs.

As I have stated before on other threads, I believe that all workers make a big mistake when they have deferred benefits. It's no fault of their own; it's just the way things have been done.

Anyway, whether a workforce is unionized, or not, has little to do with how well they do their jobs. If management hires good people and treats them fairly, most people will do a good job. There will always be slackers and yes, the unions will stick up for the less productive. Unions have to represent their members, or face being sued. It is managements job to discipline their workers.

I can't speak for the UAW, but I was a union worker for more than 37 years and I can assure you that I earned every penny and every benefit I'm still enjoying. The majority of my fellow workers were extremely professional and very highly skilled. Believe me, the management (most of them) appreciated the employees and felt they were getting their moneys worth and then some. In my later years with the company, I was still in the union, but my job also included supervision and I had to make some very high dollar decisions. I also had to depend on the advice of those I supervised. In my experience, people generally respond to being given responsibility and become invaluable assets to the company.

As with a lot, if not most of our industries in this country, the auto business is highly competitive. I believe GM, Chrysler and Ford were sort of caught with the rapidly changing situations that are still ongoing--such as the price of oil, the economy and their customers product choices. Because of the nature of their business and to a significant degree their extravigant financial habits, they just weren't prepared for a sudden downturn in the economy. I doubt that they would be in any different situation if the UAW did not exist.

WolfTrap · « **Reply #21 on:** May 03, 2009, 04:57:05 AM »

Quote from: magooch on May 03, 2009, 04:34:12 AM

I can't speak for the UAW, but I was a union worker for more than 37 years and I can assure you that I earned every penny and every benefit I'm still enjoying. The majority of my fellow workers were extremely professional and very highly skilled. Believe me, the management (most of them) appreciated the employees and felt they were getting their moneys worth and then some.

Well put!
WT

Questor · « **Reply #22 on:** May 03, 2009, 05:06:05 AM »

Unfortunately being a union member today is a lot like being a bank executive, a lawyer, a politician, or a bureaucrat. There's a bit of a public relations problem that makes positive arguments a tough sell.

I know there are good union people out there. But my experience has been that the bad ones completely overshadow the good ones. My perception is that the vast majority of union workers are always looking for an excuse to work less and cause trouble in an organization. I don't even want to go into details here because just recalling some events I have experienced makes my blood boil. My perception may be objectively wrong, but it certainly informs all opinions I have about unions.

As for the previous post by the union worker who earned a pension after 37 years, I agree. That was part of the deal you signed up for. The contract is that if you put in a career you get a decent pension in the end. Far too many union workers have been screwed out of their pensions by various schemes to deny them of what was rightly theirs. Some of the schemes I have seen are utterly reprehensible. How do you start over when you're 62 or 65 and now suddenly don't have the pension you assumed you were going to get? Can you imagine how heartless the people are who design such schemes? It was rampant during the 1980s. I think we're in for another round of it now that a lot of pension funds are realizing they have too many people to pay.

magooch · « **Reply #23 on:** May 03, 2009, 05:29:32 AM »

You are absolutely right and that is exactly why I think workers should be compensated fully at the time they earn it. The government could be instumental in making that a reality, by allowing, or maybe demanding that a portion of compensation be set aside as a pension and be tax deferred. There are of course some very critical issues that would need to be worked out; what kind of investments would be safe enough; what kind of guarantees and who would be the guarantor; how and when would the fund be accessible and so on.

I don't see any of these issues being too large a problem to solve and in the end, it would be far superior to having to depend on a pension plan that might, or might not survive a company failure.

DDZ · « **Reply #24 on:** May 03, 2009, 06:46:43 AM »

Workers can't be compensated if they are unionized. I work for a large company and its workers are unionized. At the location I work at, I truely believe that if half the people there did not have union protection they would not have a job. Maybe if they had the threat of being fired I'm sure some or most would pick it up. So working in a union does effect how some people work. Some of the people I work with, think that all they have to do is show up and they deserve a paycheck. They complain about every little thing. They complain and file grievance's if they think someone is getting something they arn't. As far as it being managements job to discipline the workers. This has been tried by differant managment personal, and what happens is the person being disciplined complained, and the managment person gets sent to anger management classes. Management where I work has tried to award people for doing a better job, but along comes the complaining by someone and the union stops any kind of awards going to individules. The company is now taking noticable steps for the next contract. I believe they want to get rid of the union and I for one can't blame them. Don't ever think that being unionized dosn't affect how people work. I have seen the affects with my own eyes. All the union does for me is take my dues and funnel some of it to the democrats. If I had my choice I would no work under the union, but then you have no choice when a union is present.

DDZ · « **Reply #25 on:** May 03, 2009, 06:59:46 AM »

The reason plants are shutting down and workers are losing thier jobs is because the UAW held the auto company's hostage for more benifits and wages. How many times have you heard "If you don't give us this and that, we will strike" You can look at it any way you want but this is a fact.

If you owned a company would you want your workers unionized? I know I wouldn't. I would want to pay my workers by thier worth, not my workers saying you owe me x amount per hour no matter what I do.

Dee · « **Reply #26 on:** May 03, 2009, 07:32:47 AM »

Quote from: WolfTrap on May 02, 2009, 06:51:02 AM

Quote from: newstart2k on May 01, 2009, 06:28:16 AM
Hey WolfTrap,

Let me know which Mercedes, Hyundai or Honda you interested in. We make a whole bunch of 'em right here in Alabama.

Dee,

Who me, step out of context in our absolute black and white world, never.
Ah...yes!
Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina and Georgia!
The Mecca of Industries great push into centuries of uneducated/unskilled depressed populations willing to slave for crumbs compared to their Northern and Western Brethren?
Dee, Jim Crow/Carpet-Bagger (Absolute Black n White World) aren't dead....they've just has taken on the mask of Janus the Savior!
WolfTrap
PS: I've been to the towns outside the so called prosperous Cities of the "New Southern States" and they are as backward and poor... going 30 years back before the "Great Foreign Invasion" as ever!

Weelll, it would seem the southern californicator has put me into the likes of Jim Crow. Hope the ole man isn't offended.

Let's see here. Backward and poor towns in the south. Hmmmm. Well that's true in many respects all over the U.S. but, it seems to only count in the south as far as Mr. Wolftrap sees it. Never mind the gangs californicate produces and exports to the south. How does that compare with an illegal Mexican population INCLUDING the MS13 that is slowly but surly taking over californicate? I think I'll take poor, backward, and southern white trash, instead.
Not to mention every time californicators vote something in or out, the californicator supreme court "aristocracy" over-throws it. Seems the californicators can't get much done, or can't be trusted to make good decisions. YOUR STATE, definitely doesn't trust you with guns, and maybe they shouldn't with such a elitist, condescending view of my "good ole southern heritage". We shoot thieves here in Texas, while you guys WATCH thieves, and let the gangs take over your nasty cities that are both filthy, over crowded, AND, gang infested
WolfTrap, your state is DEAD BROKE, and wants our poor white southern trash tax, dollars to bail you out, you have the absolutely world famous MECA FOR QUEERS (san francissyco), in your state, you have produced such political greats as Boxer, Fienstien, and a Governor whom cannot even pronounce califoricate, and your criticizing ME? Are YOU a member of the UAW? If not, then why defend them? Just because YOU YOURSELF are union? That justifies why we southern poor white trash folks should give THEM "OUR" money?
Well it seems that the UAW is going to end up with 55% of Chrysler. Now that is going to be something to watch!
Mr. Wolftrap as I don't know you, and have really nothing bad to say about you personally, I would however, like to know why YOU THINK, I should willingly turn over my tax dollar to a bunch of thugs, and thieves such as the UAW machine? Why should I pay out money to something I was never, nor will ever be, a part of, or benefit from?
Are you a Socialist? Because that is Socialism. Are you a Marxist? Because that is Marxism. Are you a Fascist? Because it smacks of Fascism. OR! Are you just another californicator whom thinks they know what best for us "poor white southern, trailer house livin, backward hillbillies?
I have travelled ALL OVER your state, and I, like Oregon wish most of you would stay the hell in californicate. You as a state financially, are a TAX BURDEN on the rest of us, just like a few other states. Your state has disarmed you, pulled your teeth, and on many occasions nullified your majority vote. Why don't you clean that mess up yourself, instead of making the rest of us pay someone to pick up after you?

Dee · « **Reply #27 on:** May 03, 2009, 07:34:42 AM »

Quote from: DDZ on May 03, 2009, 06:59:46 AM

The reason plants are shutting down and workers are losing thier jobs is because the UAW held the auto company's hostage for more benifits and wages. How many times have you heard "If you don't give us this and that, we will strike" You can look at it any way you want but this is a fact.

If you owned a company would you want your workers unionized? I know I wouldn't. I would want to pay my workers by thier worth, not my workers saying you owe me x amount per hour no matter what I do.

You sir, are correct, and no I wouldn't want them unionized.

torpedoman · « **Reply #28 on:** May 03, 2009, 03:46:18 PM »

the UNION got NOTHING for free the 55% ownership costs them their retirement and medical benifits the company fails they get nothing for a careers work. please when you read the paper read it ALL.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #29 on:** May 03, 2009, 04:26:11 PM »

Quote

the UNION got NOTHING for free the 55% ownership costs them their retirement and medical benifits the company fails they get nothing for a careers work. please when you read the paper read it ALL.

I beg to differ, they were going to lose that anyway! That's what a bankruptcy is.(an out for the company to lose their financial obligations). But the pres wanted to save his constituents, so it is what it is, a bailout not a bankruptcy. So in my book it was for free! When one reads one must read between the lines! But thanks for the advice anyway!

The union folk that have retired are the losers. They will have all of that taken anyway! I hope they are able to make a go of it, however with the government involved, and the union now with 55 % ownership it's a fiasco waiting to happen!