Author Topic: Thinking about a lever action... (Read 2853 times)

iunderpressure · « **on:** May 03, 2009, 11:04:54 PM »

I shoot and reload, but I've never shot or messed with a lever action. Some of that probably has to do with the fact that I live in Indiana. We could never use them to hunt until a couple years ago with the pistol calibers. I'm looking for good solid lever action info.

Brands. Henry, Puma, Marlin? How do they compare? Marlin and Henry are american companies. Puma is from Italy now. Have they always been? What's the difference in detail and feel?

Caliber. I have always wanted or knew I was goin to get a 45-70. I like the history, but I can't hunt with that round here in Indiana. I also have 20 other tools I can use to kill a deer so not sure how important that is. I like the 357 price point, but would I feel under gunned? What's your take on the 45 LC and 44 Mag? What velocities can one expect from a rifle with these rounds? I've been reading a lot of posts, and I'm still not real clear what to expect.

Looking back knowing now what you didn't know then, what would you tell yourself if you were looking at getting a lever action?

Thanks

stubshaft · « **Reply #1 on:** May 03, 2009, 11:36:40 PM »

Over the years I have owned over 15 lever actions. My fist real gun was an old Mdl 64 Winchester 30/30. I have used the 30/30, 357mag, 44mag, 30/40krag, 308, 45lc and 45/70 in lever actions to harvest animals. My current go to levergun is a Marlin 45/70 blued guide gun w/ballard rifling. It doesn't matter whether or not you get the microgrrove rifling or the ballard style. Both of them shooot great. The 357 is a light handy fun plinking gun. It is cheap to shoot and is effective out to 100 yds. The 45/70 is just plain fun! I get a charge out of those huge chunks of lead flying out of the barrel. It can be loaded down to 45lc levels or raised above the "standard" 45/70 loadings. The guide gun is also light, handy and for me well balanced when carrying (I grip it around the front of the receiver). I put a ghost ring peep sight on the back and when I shoulder it all I see is that front sight just begging to be put on a target.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #2 on:** May 04, 2009, 01:50:46 AM »

Marlin is, in my opinion, the lever gun to go with. It's a strong, stable action and the closed top of the receiver means better optics mounting. You may not want a scope now, but the option later is good.

The 44 magnum is the best pistol caliber for hunting of those you mentioned. The 357 is good too. With a rifle, paarticularly the stronger actioned Marlin, you can load either of those up like you may not want to shoot in a pistol. Even a hot 44 magnum is tamed considerably by the size and weight of a rifle as oposed to even the largest hand guns.

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** May 04, 2009, 02:44:45 AM »

First up I'd suggest you decide if you want to scope it or shoot irons. If ya need a scope then that leaves the Rossi or Uberti guns out. If you are happy with irons the Rossi made clones of the old Winchester 92 are to my eyes and hands mighty fine choices.

If you must have a scope I'd go with the Marlin tho a Henry is not a bad choice either.

As to chambering you need to decide what yer gonna do with it. The .357 in a rifle certainly is plenty for deer hunting and a bit more fun and cheaper to operate for targets. The .44 magnum has all the power you'll ever need for most anything and the .45 Colt can be made to do anything the .44 will do if you handload and are willing to buy or make your own cast bullets.

I really think that if irons are OK for you a Rossi .357 Magnum such as I have would be an excellent choice. If ya need a scope get the Marlin version still in .357.

243dave · « **Reply #4 on:** May 04, 2009, 04:12:37 AM »

If you gotta have the most powerful lever you can legally hunt with in Indiana don't rule out the puma 454. Plus you can always shoot 45colts in it too. It may not have the history --- but when loaded stout its right there with a factory loaded 45-70.

Dee · « **Reply #5 on:** May 04, 2009, 04:36:52 AM »

I've owned a Model 94 3030, since it was bought new in 1958. It has seldom seen a factory load, and I shoot almost exclusively 150 grain jacketed soft points, and 170 grain cast with a gas check that I have been molding for over 30 years.
HOWEVER! The Model 92 Rossi clone (walnut stocked version) I have in 357 mag will do anything the 3030 will do out to about 125 yards shooting a 158 grain jacketed soft point. It is the rifle version with octagon barrel, and I drilled and tapped it for the same Lyman aperture that is on my Model 94.
I have also been molding cast bullets in the 357 category for well over 30 years also. It is a good all around cartridge in a rifle where ranges are 100 yards or so.

kitchawan kid · « **Reply #6 on:** May 04, 2009, 05:23:10 AM »

Have 3 marlins and 2 Winchesters at this time,the old winchester in 30-30 is great,but the newer one had nothing but problems.You can't go wrong with the Marlins, the 45lc. cbc is the best lever I have owned.

Bullseye · « **Reply #7 on:** May 04, 2009, 07:21:23 AM »

I have two Marlins and a Winchester. I like both brands. I live in Indiana so I hunt with two of mine, the Winchester 44 Trapper and a Marlin 41 Mag both of which are scoped. The Marlin 45-70 has to stay home from the deer woods though. I personally think the Winchesters are a little smoother but even though it has had a trigger job, the trigger is not as good as the Marlins that have had a Wild West Guns Trigger Happy trigger put in them. A lot of the Marlins have pretty ruff looking wood on them and I would have to pick one from a bunch that would make me happy. I have not had any experience with the other brands. I think they are all pretty good, get your hands on as many of them as you can and see which one feels the best.

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #8 on:** May 04, 2009, 09:18:29 AM »

I have 5 Marlins with number 6 ordered, one Winchester 94 (45 colt Trapper) and 4 Rossi levers. I guess you could say I like levers, of these 11 guns, 6 are pistol caliber. ( I also have 5 single shots in pistol caliber) The Pumas, Rossi, are built hell for stout. 2 of mine are in the 454 Casull chambering which they handle with ease. They are all very good guns, see which feels the best to you. DP

iunderpressure · « **Reply #9 on:** May 04, 2009, 04:46:13 PM »

Are the Rossi and Puma the same gun? Are they made at the same factory, and have they always came from the same place? Is the 454 still in production? Are the Rossi/Puma, I'm assuming they are the same gun, as strong as a marlin? I would be able to load to the marlin level?

I'm wanting to use iron sights. I normally like ghost ring style sights, so which company has the best sights? Or would I need to go with after market sights?

Barrel length, is there any benefit in a barrel over 16 or 18 inches, using pistol calibers?

Thanks for all the good info.

iunderpressure · « **Reply #10 on:** May 04, 2009, 05:46:59 PM »

Ok, I'm blind. I just read a couple post about the Rossi/Puma story. So is the Chiappa version out yet? How does it compare to the Rossi?

jlwilliams · « **Reply #11 on:** May 04, 2009, 11:45:56 PM »

I don't know about the Puma/Rossi issue. I do know a friend of mine has a Rossi in 454 and he really likes it. Beyond that, I got nothing.

As for barrel length vs velocity. Pistol powder burns up fast. You gain some speed with the 16" or 18" over a 6" barrel. You won't gain much beyond that by going longer. Others may have actual chronographed data, but I know that there is a diminished return for added length past carbine length. I read an article (Small Arms Review, I think) where they cut a barrel back an inch at a time and tested. I think pistol rounds and shotgun rounds both kept their velocities pretty consistently until you get down well below the legal limit. Rifle rounds are a different story.

I know I have seen some nice ghost ring sights on Marlin lever actions, but I don't know if they are aftermarket or factory. Again, the Marlin solid topped receiver allows you to mount a peep or a ghost ring on top of the receiver.

On a related note, here is a link to a shop that builds a take down rifle based on the Marlin lever gun. They are unique in that you can have mag tube loaded while the gun is apart. This is one of my wish list rifles. http://www.wildwestguns.com/copilot.html

Swampman · « **Reply #12 on:** May 04, 2009, 11:54:09 PM »

A Marlin in .44 or .357 would be my choice.

rusty shackelford · « **Reply #13 on:** May 05, 2009, 12:20:52 AM »

there are so adictive that once you buy one well...............
it like the potato-chip commericial

rusty

buck460XVR · « **Reply #14 on:** May 05, 2009, 05:01:37 AM »

I was in the same quandary a few months ago myself. I wanted something that would be inexpensive to shoot regularly at the range and still be accurate. I also wanted something that would be a effective short range whitetail gun with iron sights. It had to be reliable, look good and feel right when carrying. I found out after researching that the .357 outta a rifle is a whole different bullet than when fired from a handgun. I was also told that the Winnie and the Marlin were finicky when it came to small pistol cartridges. I ended up with a .357 Rossi 92 stainless with the 20'' barrel and was pleasantly impressed. The accuracy out to a hundred yards is incredible, and it's a pretty little gun. It's well made and gets smoother everytime I shoot it. I have shot approximately a thousand rounds thru it with no problems using several different handloaded bullets. I would buy another in a heartbeat. I also am glad I went with a .357 over a .44 for my application as I can shoot a coupla hundred rounds everytime I go to the range and still spend less that $30. Can't wait to try it out on Wisconsin whitetail.

BTW...........I too had the "itch" for one of those Marlin 45/70s, till I shot one. They may be a good bear gun, but they are definitely not a fun gun to shoot. This comes from a guy that enjoys shooting .460 Magnum from a handgun. A friend was trying to sell me his Marlin after he had only run a single box of shells thru it. He had it for almost ten years. It was a pretty lil' thing in stainless with nice wood, and I believe a 16'' barrel. Altho he offered it to me for just over half of what they now sell for, I passed on it. It was brutal to say the least.........the main reason my friend had only shot a box of shells thru it in ten years.

bluecow · « **Reply #15 on:** May 05, 2009, 05:08:40 AM »

dumb ? why cant you use the 45-70? not that all laws have to...

gstewart44 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 05, 2009, 06:18:33 AM »

I have a Win 94 in 3030 made in 1958 (like yours Dee). this little carbine is light, slick action and extremely accurate. I used to shoot a lot of handloads in it but nowadays I am using up my current stash of PMC 150 gr FN. (It hates anything heavier than 150 gr). This one will stay in my family after I am gone.

20 years ago I did a lot of Cowboy Action Shooting, and used a Puma, 44 mag loaded with BP. It was a fine carbine for that purpose but when I started using it for hunting with full power loads the magazine tube broke loose. I had it repaired and only shot factory ammo with it but the tube came off again. Sold it out of frustration.

I would definately get a newer Puma. The model 92 action is slick, made for pistol cartridges and locks up tight. the newer Rossi's are built to take the 454 so I guess mine 20 yrs ago just slipped past QC.

mannyrock · « **Reply #17 on:** May 05, 2009, 12:43:21 PM »

Absolutely hands-down no question.

If this is your first lever gun, and you will use it primarily on deer, and it must be in a pistol caliber, then go with the Marlin 1894 in .44 mag. It is without question the strongest of the levers you mentioned, it is great with scopes or iron sights, it is accurate, and it just plain works.

I also like the .357 mag, but since this is your first deer hunting rifle, you are going to be tempted to stretch the range, and the 100 yard range limit of the .357 mag would frustrate you, until you become a more experienced rifle hunter.

Hope this helps.

Mannyrock

iunderpressure · « **Reply #18 on:** May 05, 2009, 02:20:52 PM »

I'm not worried about taking a bad shot or range. I'm not new to hunting. All I've ever used has been a bow, 12 gauge, and muzzleloader.

I'm leaning towards the puma 92 (the new one made in italy) because i'm assuming it's more accurate in terms of the original design. The same way I bought my Dan Wesson 1911 because it didn't have all the added safeties. It's the original design.

Do you see more cast bullets for the 44 or 357? Do you have to watch your velocities with cast loads due to leading of the barrel? I've never messed with casting, and i've heard of people making a cast of their barrel to find the right size bullet. Can someone explain? Or are you just better off sticking with jacketed bullets?

Can someone list the calibers that were original to the 92?

I know I'm all over the place asking very different questions.

jimster · « **Reply #19 on:** May 05, 2009, 03:19:49 PM »

I have no experience with the newer Puma from Chiappa of Italy, but from what I've read they have a good reputation. My 92 is from Brazil, imported by EMF, a Hartford model, and I've owned older Rossi's before as well. If your leaning towards a 92, they are slick and strong.

I use cast bullets myself in my 92, have no problem with leading but I'm shooting a 45 Colt at just around 900 fps. Handloaders like jacketed or cast, I think there are lots of both, it just depends on what your favorite load is. Most often leading form cast bullets is because the bullet does not fit the bore just right, but there are also cast bullets with gas checks on them to help the leading problem at very high velocities if leading is a problem. Cast and jacketed bullets both have their fans and high quality bullets are available for both.

Some of the original calibers were 44-40, 32-20, 38-40, 25-20 and 218 Bee for a couple years.

Don't know if the new Puma's from Italy have any extra silly safeties on them or not....I took the one off my EMF model (Brazil), a few years back they did not have an extra safety on those either.

Hope this helped some.

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #20 on:** May 05, 2009, 03:30:25 PM »

As to the strengh of the Rossi/Puma 92's, they are the only lever from the factory made in the 454 Casull chambering. Look up Paco Kelly's articals on the Rossi and that will answer some questions you might have on them. And if it's not smooth enoough for ya after running several hundred rounds through it, Stevesgunz.com can lead ya in the right direction. The lock-up on the 92 design is stronger than on the Marlin 1894 action, and I like them as well so don't jump on me

for that statement.

If you can, shoot all of them you are interested in and make your own choice. DP

iunderpressure · « **Reply #21 on:** May 05, 2009, 04:28:03 PM »

I read that the rifles from Italy didn't have added safties on them, I think on saw that on their site. That the only reason I placed it in the front running.

Savage .250 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 06, 2009, 05:12:54 AM »

Lots of good levers and cals out there but for my money I`d go with a marlin 336 in Rem 35 cal. Load that puppy with Hornary Lever-E ammo and your good to go.

burntmuch · « **Reply #23 on:** May 06, 2009, 05:57:04 AM »

Savage Ive got a 336 35rem & love it, But I still find my self wanting a .357 lever gun

Dee · « **Reply #24 on:** May 06, 2009, 08:29:10 AM »

Quote from: gstewart44 on May 05, 2009, 06:18:33 AM

I have a Win 94 in 3030 made in 1958 (like yours Dee). this little carbine is light, slick action and extremely accurate. I used to shoot a lot of handloads in it but nowadays I am using up my current stash of PMC 150 gr FN. (It hates anything heavier than 150 gr). This one will stay in my family after I am gone.

20 years ago I did a lot of Cowboy Action Shooting, and used a Puma, 44 mag loaded with BP. It was a fine carbine for that purpose but when I started using it for hunting with full power loads the magazine tube broke loose. I had it repaired and only shot factory ammo with it but the tube came off again. Sold it out of frustration.

I would definately get a newer Puma. The model 92 action is slick, made for pistol cartridges and locks up tight. the newer Rossi's are built to take the 454 so I guess mine 20 yrs ago just slipped past QC.

I bought a 92 rossi about 20 to 25 years ago. The metallurgy sucked. The Rossi I have now, I order from Navy Arms. I has really nice walnut on it, that I refinished to match my old Winchester. I slicked up the action and it like my 51 year old Winchester will not be sold with my knowledge.

iunderpressure · « **Reply #25 on:** May 08, 2009, 04:19:44 PM »

Uberti 1873, Uberti 1866 yellow boy, or Chiappa 1892?

Bullseye · « **Reply #26 on:** May 11, 2009, 08:23:46 AM »

bluecow

The law in Indiana for PCR's (pistol cartridge rifles) is written to state a minimum bullet diameter of .357 and the law also has a minimum and maximum cartridge length. The 45-70 case is to long. The 460 is also to long.

It is a strange law, but considering up until 2 years ago it was shotgun only it was a major step that was finally taken. Safety was always the big concern for anything other than shotguns. The claim is too flat of terrain. That might be true in the northern part of the state but the southern part is pretty hilly.

Funny thing is you can hunt with a handgun with a 243 or bigger bullet. Yep, a 30-06 Encore is legal. Go figure!

teddy12b · « **Reply #27 on:** May 11, 2009, 08:42:03 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on May 04, 2009, 02:44:45 AM

First up I'd suggest you decide if you want to scope it or shoot irons. If ya need a scope then that leaves the Rossi or Uberti guns out. If you are happy with irons the Rossi made clones of the old Winchester 92 are to my eyes and hands mighty fine choices.

+1 I went with a puma 44 mag because I like the looks, and I'd read of too many people talking about marlin 1894's with jamming problems. The henry's are nice, but they're just too pretty for me to take hunting. I hate to scratch up something that looks like it was meant as a showpiece.

I also live in Indiana and I can't say enough about how much more I enjoy hunting with a leveraction than I do a shotgun. It just has a different feel to it. I took a buck with mine last season and here's a link to the long winded report: http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,156526.0.html

Also, I have some chronograph data if you want it:

Puma 92 44 Mag 20"
240gr Hornady XTP HP
H110 24.0 gr
Remington Brass
Remington Primers

Velocity   Ave.
1,676   1,676
1,686
1,657
1,684


240gr Gold Dot
H110 24.0gr
Remington Brass
Remington Primers
   Ave.
Velocity   1,643
1,619
1,647
1,608
1,698


*FACTORY * Grizzley 320gr Hard Cast
Velocity   Ave.
1,573   1,583
1,587
1,588
1,583


*FACTORY * Grizzley 320gr Hard Cast
Velocity   Ave.
1533   1,543
1531
1560
1547


*FACTORY * Winchester 240gr JSP
Velocity   Ave.
1763   1,753
1745
1751

I once did a velocity comparison between my puma and a ruger super redhawk I owned at that time. The average velocity difference between the pistol and rifle was 275fps usign a 320gr hard cast with gas checked bullet.

Quote from: Bullseye on May 11, 2009, 08:23:46 AM

bluecowFunny thing is you can hunt with a handgun with a 243 or bigger bullet. Yep, a 30-06 Encore is legal. Go figure!

I don't get that either. You can't hunt with a 30-06 rifle but you can with that caliber in a pistol? Just goes to show how out of touch the lawmakers are. I tried a 30-06 pistol barrel on my encore years ago and it was on ebay after 20 rounds. I live in the flat part of Indiana and agree that high powered rifles shouldn't be used where I'm at. Too bad you guys in the hills get punished for us flat landers. At least they did the PCR thing and I know that has helped revive the sport.

iunderpressure · « **Reply #28 on:** May 12, 2009, 04:07:36 PM »

Lots of good information. Teddy I like that you posted your chronograph results. It makes comparing easier.

teddy12b · « **Reply #29 on:** May 12, 2009, 04:13:47 PM »

I hope the chrono data helps. I really can't say enough about how much I like my little puma 44 mag. It packs such a big heavy punch in such a light and handy package. I have no worries when I go out with that rifle.