Author Topic: cz52 or tokarev? (Read 11588 times)

troy_mclure · « **on:** May 05, 2009, 12:15:42 PM »

im looking for a decent shooting pistol.

which would be the best, a tokarev, or cz52?

and what is the best place to find one?

jlwilliams · « **Reply #1 on:** May 05, 2009, 01:06:29 PM »

As a disclaimer, I own a CZ-52 but I don't own a Tokarov. I like my CZ.

What I hear from people who have both is that the Tokarov is a better shooting gun. Like all East Block guns, they have quality controll 'discrepancies'. Some are way better than others.

I Got my CZ over the counter at a local shop. It's always good to buy a gun you can handle before you put down your money.

There are some Yugoslavian Tokarovs on the market now for reasonable money and I plan on getting one. I hear they are pretty good quality and condition.

I know I haven't drawn much of a comparison between the two for you, but I can only tell you what I know. I would have to say that you will do well by looking around and finding the right deal on the right one, instead of deciding "I will get a ...." before you see what's available to you.

Mikey · « **Reply #2 on:** May 05, 2009, 03:11:36 PM »

Two different designs as you know. The CZ is bigger and stronger by design. It was built to handle the hotter submachine gun loadings in the 7.62x25mm caliber. The Tokarev was designed and built around the standard pressure 7.62x25mm pistol loadings and does not tolerate the higher pressures of the sub-gun ammo. The difference in velocity is about 150-200'/sec for some of the sub-gun loadings and the pressures are higher than in the pistol loadings. Standard 7.62x25mm pistol loads from either Ron Reed, Sellier and Bellot or PRVI are all at the correct load range for that caliber. It is very wise to avoid mil-surp in the Tok as you don't know if it is sub-gun ammo or not.

But understand this - the Tokarev and the 7.62x25mm cartridge are a extremely powerful combination. The standard pistol loadings in this cartridge are known to be particularly 'awesome' to other shooters on line with you. The Tok is a excellent personal defense and carry pistol. It is slim, fairly lightweight and easy to use.

Depending on which particular piece you have, find or get, your trigger pull can run the gammut from nice and slick to 2 and a half tons, regardless of it being a CZ or Tok.

I feel the Tokarev is easier to work on and deal with. I think the Tok is the more accurate (might have something to do with the ammo....).

The Romanian Tokarev seems to be the nicest made currently available. Check the Shotgun News for adds from places like J&G Sales, Gun Parts Corp, and go to our sponsor list to see if any of our sponsors may sell those pistols.

SM Bob · « **Reply #3 on:** May 06, 2009, 04:02:52 AM »

Troy,
I own both of them. I like them both in their own way. I replaced the mainspring
on both of them with new ones from Wolff gunsprings the very minute they came
through the door. I highly recommend that for any milsurp rifle or pistol that you
buy. There's no telling how old the spring is in these old weapons. For $14 it's
cheap insurance. That being said, I did a few things extra to my CZ 52 to make
it more to my liking. The firing pins on CZ 52's are notorious for breaking. I
decided to replace mine with a -2 pin setup from Harrington Products. It made
a huge difference with the trigger pull by lightening it up a lot and I never have
to worry about a broken firing pin anymore. Then I added a set of hardened rollers.
I also added a Hogue grip sleeve.
The few things made the CZ 52 a lot more to my liking. Without them, I wouldn't
like it nearly as much as I do. It's a lot of fun to take the CZ 52 out to the range
and fire off some rounds. It is loud and it has a nice flame coming out of the barrel.
It draws a crowd real quick. People asking all kinds of questions like: "What the
hell is that thing?" "Where did you get it?" "I've never seen one of those before."
It's a lot of fun! I have a Romanian Tokerev as well. All I did to it was replace the
mainspring. I really like the Tokerev straight out of the box. It just feels right in
your hand. It is slimmer than the CZ 52 and I like the sights better. Both of them
are good shooters. I would definitely recommend you get both of them. The CZ
is a real unique pistol. Easy to field strip. Fun to shoot! The Tokerev is a great
pistol. Slim. A natural pointer. Similar to a 1911. Here's some good info.

Robert
CZ 52

http://harringtonproducts.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w4kZXi1Uk

Tokerev

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FuIQ6KXoWE

Hank08 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 07, 2009, 06:04:34 AM »

I have both, a Chinese Tok and 3 CZs. haven't done anything to either, all 4 shoot great, shoot the same ammo in all 4, 85 gr. 1500 fps surplus, no problems in either. The CZ is a stronger design (way ahead of it's time) but the Tok seems to be amply strong for any ammo I've found.
H08

NRAJOE · « **Reply #5 on:** May 10, 2009, 08:39:24 PM »

CZ52 hands down...

bluecow · « **Reply #6 on:** May 11, 2009, 03:28:16 AM »

i find this intersting. i would have thought that the 52 would have receved more goes. never fired the cz but have used the tok for 20 plus years sometimes the only handgun i could lay my hands on. the tok is a great handgun but you need to learn to cant you wrist up or you hit em in the knees.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #7 on:** May 12, 2009, 12:20:16 AM »

Quote from: bluecow on May 11, 2009, 03:28:16 AM

i find this intersting. i would have thought that the 52 would have receved more goes. never fired the cz but have used the tok for 20 plus years sometimes the only handgun i could lay my hands on. the tok is a great handgun but you need to learn to cant you wrist up or you hit em in the knees.

Interesting. I still feel compelled to get a Tok.

bluecow · « **Reply #8 on:** May 14, 2009, 05:19:34 AM »

oh dont let me sway you from the tok. i never felt under gunned. as a side note, i have a 1930's stoger catalog and it says you can use the 30 msr. for bear and boar.!? never did that maybe then i would feel under gunned lol

S.S. · « **Reply #9 on:** May 14, 2009, 09:56:18 AM »

which ever is a better price! I love them both!
I prefer a TT-33 to be carried. CZ52 is a house or
car gun. Both are excellent handguns.

Surculus · « **Reply #10 on:** May 29, 2009, 11:47:12 AM »

Quote from: Mikey on May 05, 2009, 03:11:36 PM

Two different designs as you know. The CZ is bigger and stronger by design. It was built to handle the hotter submachine gun loadings in the 7.62x25mm caliber. The Tokarev was designed and built around the standard pressure 7.62x25mm pistol loadings and does not tolerate the higher pressures of the sub-gun ammo. The difference in velocity is about 150-200'/sec for some of the sub-gun loadings and the pressures are higher than in the pistol loadings. Standard 7.62x25mm pistol loads from either Ron Reed, Sellier and Bellot or PRVI are all at the correct load range for that caliber. It is very wise to avoid mil-surp in the Tok as you don't know if it is sub-gun ammo or not.

This net-myth just will not die!

The CZ-52 barrel is thinner than that of the Tok just forward of the chamber, & will always fail before a Tok barrel, ceteris paribus.

The CZ-52 got the rep as "some super strong crap" when a gun-writer [blessed w/ imperfect logic] got ahold of one some years ago, & finding Czech subgun ammo for sale, decided that the CZ-52 must be stronger than the Tok. As those who've blown them up can attest, nothing could be further from the truth!

Among other things, the CZ-52s roller-action isn't as strong as a true Browning-style lockup as featured in the Tokarev; it is more properly classed as "delayed blowback" than a true locked breech.

Please, look around Chuck Hawk's website for more info & do some due diligence net research before trusting someone's assertion that the CZ-52 is some hella strong pistol...

That said, I like my CZ-52 more than my brother's Tok, for just fun shooting. Much easier to field strip at the end of the day, among other things. The Tokarev never has to worry about bent magazine feed lips tho'; they're machined into the receiver. Lots to be said for both designs...

NickSS · « **Reply #11 on:** May 30, 2009, 11:40:25 PM »

I have a CZ and a Tokorev (Chinese made and in 9MM Luger). I like them both. I want to get a Tokorev in 7.62 but have not found one yet. The CZ works fine and is about as accurate and my Tokorev. The one thing I dislike about the CZ is the distance it sends its empties. They travel at considerable velocity up to 30 feet from my pistol. I end up hunting all over the parking lot for empties.

Reed1911 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 31, 2009, 05:24:05 AM »

Quote

Two different designs as you know. The CZ is bigger and stronger by design. It was built to handle the hotter submachine gun loadings in the 7.62x25mm caliber. The Tokarev was designed and built around the standard pressure 7.62x25mm pistol loadings and does not tolerate the higher pressures of the sub-gun ammo. The difference in velocity is about 150-200'/sec for some of the sub-gun loadings and the pressures are higher than in the pistol loadings. Standard 7.62x25mm pistol loads from either Ron Reed, Sellier and Bellot or PRVI are all at the correct load range for that caliber. It is very wise to avoid mil-surp in the Tok as you don't know if it is sub-gun ammo or not.

This net-myth just will not die!

I disagree. Without writing the whole kit and caboodle out, according to our tests, accurate arms testing, and a handful of others (with proper testing equipment as well, not hobbyists which means proper pressure testing equipment and proper safety equipment) the CZ-52 is in fact a stronger gun when it comes to allowable pressure. That being said, I've seen both guns handle the surplus ammo intended for the sub-guns, and NEITHER one is rated for it and neither should be used with it. It is packaged and labeled for them (Rifles) for a reason and exceeds the maximum pressure spec for the cartridge in handguns.

Bottom line on it, for the vast majority of the ammunition that is on the market, it makes no difference. Some ammo (ours) is designed expressly for the CZ-52, and yes I know some folks shoot it in the TT-33. I've never seen it cause a catastrophic failure (i.e. gun turned into a hand grenade), but it will cause a failure over time, which is why we label it as such. The Sub-gun pressure ammo, on the other hand I have seen it cause such a failure in both.

Both guns are great designs, I personally prefer the CZ-52; but we have a lot of history with it as well and not so much with the TT-33. I've shot no less than 10K rounds through TT-33's and I could not guess how many from the CZ-52 over five calibers in the past years. It seems that there are more surplus parts out there for the CZ-52, but I could be wrong there.

S.S. · « **Reply #13 on:** May 31, 2009, 05:56:17 AM »

Not a net myth at all, The CZ52 is and was designed for a cartridge called the M48.
It is at least 10% hotter than the standard Tok. round. I have some of these rounds
and it is quite easy to tell the difference when one is fired. STOUT.

Airsporter · « **Reply #14 on:** June 23, 2009, 12:47:32 PM »

Quote

Among other things, the CZ-52s roller-locked action isn't as strong as a true Browning-style lockup as featured in the Tokarev; it is more properly classed as "delayed blowback" than a true locked breech.

Interesting that the 'roller-delayed blowback' system was used in the German G-3 (HK91) in 7.62x51 NATO (.308) without a problem. Try that with 'true browning-style lockup' at pressures in the 50K range.

rio grande · « **Reply #15 on:** July 02, 2009, 08:19:34 PM »

Tokarev, first choice. Slim and handy, proven design. CZ-52 is NOT a natural pointer, clumsy, firing pin prone to break, unnecessarily complicated

Mikey · « **Reply #16 on:** July 03, 2009, 01:07:58 AM »

NickSS: If you want to convert your 9mm Tok back to 7.62x25, just get a barrel from one of the mil-surp suppliers (or maybe Ron Reed has some), some fresh springs from Wolfe Springs in Ardmore, Pa., and maybe a couple of additional magazines (also from mil-surp suppliers) and you are good to go. You may even find your Tok shoots closer to point of aim as the sights are regulated for the 7.62x25mm round and the 9mm in that handgun was a afterthought.

gandog56 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 05, 2009, 01:34:59 PM »

CZ52 usually a lot cheaper than a Tok.

torpedoman · « **Reply #18 on:** August 05, 2009, 05:46:42 PM »

Quote from: Surculus on May 29, 2009, 11:47:12 AM

Quote from: Mikey on May 05, 2009, 03:11:36 PM
Two different designs as you know. The CZ is bigger and stronger by design. It was built to handle the hotter submachine gun loadings in the 7.62x25mm caliber. The Tokarev was designed and built around the standard pressure 7.62x25mm pistol loadings and does not tolerate the higher pressures of the sub-gun ammo. The difference in velocity is about 150-200'/sec for some of the sub-gun loadings and the pressures are higher than in the pistol loadings. Standard 7.62x25mm pistol loads from either Ron Reed, Sellier and Bellot or PRVI are all at the correct load range for that caliber. It is very wise to avoid mil-surp in the Tok as you don't know if it is sub-gun ammo or not.

This net-myth just will not die!

The CZ-52 barrel is thinner than that of the Tok just forward of the chamber, & will always fail before a Tok barrel, ceteris paribus.

The CZ-52 got the rep as "some super strong crap" when a gun-writer [blessed w/ imperfect logic] got ahold of one some years ago, & finding Czech subgun ammo for sale, decided that the CZ-52 must be stronger than the Tok. As those who've blown them up can attest, nothing could be further from the truth!

Among other things, the CZ-52s roller-action isn't as strong as a true Browning-style lockup as featured in the Tokarev; it is more properly classed as "delayed blowback" than a true locked breech.

Please, look around Chuck Hawk's website for more info & do some due diligence net research before trusting someone's assertion that the CZ-52 is some hella strong pistol...

That said, I like my CZ-52 more than my brother's Tok, for just fun shooting. Much easier to field strip at the end of the day, among other things. The Tokarev never has to worry about bent magazine feed lips tho'; they're machined into the receiver. Lots to be said for both designs...

I have reloading books that were out before the internet that gives loads for the cz52 and states they are unsafe to shoot in a pistol designed for the 30 cal mauser. Have a friend who fired a 9mm round in his with the wrong barrel installed very loud ruined the barrel but nothing came apart and with a new (better marked) barrel it is still working fine. may want to rethink that gun writer internet rumor.

Mikey · « **Reply #19 on:** August 06, 2009, 01:02:34 AM »

"I have reloading books that were out before the internet that gives loads for the cz52 and states they are unsafe to shoot in a pistol designed for the 30 cal mauser." This is absolutely true.

Although nearly identical in shape, ammo made expressly for the cz52 is the same as submachine gun ammo and is way to hot for the 30 caliber Mauser (Model 1896) pistol.

It simply does not matter whether you shoot a Tokarev or a CZ52 - it is a very good idea to NOT use mil-surp submachine gun ammo in either pistol.

From my experience, Chinese surplus ammo (which was simply repackaged sub-gun ammo) was undersized and shot like the garbage it was - sometimes it would not even detonate. The same goes for the European (Czech, Russian, etc.) surplus ammo - made for sub-guns, old and very poor quality - a waste of time and money.

The best commercially made European ammo is Sellier and Bellot. Made to original specifications for the Tokarev and safe in the CZ52. NOT to be used in the 1896 Broomhandle Mauser pistol as cautioned by Ron Reed in numerous posts. The best commercially made ammo for the Tokarev and CZ52 in the US is made by Ron Reed. JMTCW.

Reed1911 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 06, 2009, 01:09:08 AM »

A humble thank you Mikey.

Basicguy · « **Reply #21 on:** December 15, 2009, 10:17:58 AM »

Old topic but I thought I would see what the packaging or head stamp looks like for the various types of surplus ammo available particularly the sub gun stuff.

torpedoman · « **Reply #22 on:** December 15, 2009, 11:11:04 AM »

as for a carry pistol I cannot recommend either pistol that shoots the 762-25 round due to over penetration problems, both are fun pistols and accurate in most cases. for a home defense or carry weapon I would advise you to get a CZ82 in 9mm makarov. Very nice pistol, great trigger, very accurate.

Mikey · « **Reply #23 on:** December 16, 2009, 02:21:53 AM »

torpedoman: Both Hornady and Sierra now have 85 grain .308 diameter round nose soft point bullets for the 7.62x25mm round. I purchased some a while back after I shot up all the 100 gn cast .308 slugs one of our moderators sent from his personal collection, but have not loaded any yet. I am still searching through old data for some powder charges that will get those slugs to factory velocities of 1390-1400'/sec from the barrel of a Tok.

If these slugs perform anything like the older Norma 7.65 Luger cupro-nickle jacketed round nose soft points that used to be available in their loaded ammunition line I wouldn't worry too much about lethal bullet travel after penetration. JMTCW.

gandog56 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 15, 2010, 09:11:35 AM »

The only problem is the milsurp stuff is so cheap, it literally is not worth it to reload this round.

Not that I don't have the dies, of course.

Reed1911 · « **Reply #25 on:** January 15, 2010, 07:26:01 PM »

Quote

The only problem is the milsurp stuff is so cheap, it literally is not worth it to reload this round

Really? I always thought the accuracy of my loads stripped the pants off the crappy surplus ammo. Hey, if you are just plinking at cans and making noise, no problem. But for shooting itty bitty groups handloading is the way, or at least try some of the new ammo we have put out.

gandog56 · « **Reply #26 on:** January 20, 2010, 11:26:54 AM »

Quote from: torpedoman on December 15, 2009, 11:11:04 AM

as for a carry pistol I cannot recommend either pistol that shoots the 762-25 round due to over penetration problems, both are fun pistols and accurate in most cases. for a home defense or carry weapon I would advise you to get a CZ82 in 9mm makarov. Very nice pistol, great trigger, very accurate.

Which I just did!

Still have my CZ52, though. Think I'll take both to the range tomorrow ans shoot them side by side.

gandog56 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 20, 2010, 11:28:32 AM »

Oops. double post.

Basicguy · « **Reply #28 on:** August 30, 2010, 11:54:09 AM »

I have bolded part of Robt Reeds comments.

What is the packaging look like for higher performance rounds. Is there a gun that can be had that chambers these "sub-gun" rounds.

I don't read Cyrillic.

I don't post here often.

Quote from: Reed1911 on May 31, 2009, 05:24:05 AM

I disagree. Without writing the whole kit and caboodle out, according to our tests, accurate arms testing, and a handful of others (with proper testing equipment as well, not hobbyists which means proper pressure testing equipment and proper safety equipment) the CZ-52 is in fact a stronger gun when it comes to allowable pressure. That being said, I've seen both guns handle the surplus ammo intended for the sub-guns, and NEITHER one is rated for it and neither should be used with it.

It is packaged and labeled for them (Rifles) for a reason and exceeds the maximum pressure spec for the cartridge in handguns.

Bottom line on it, for the vast majority of the ammunition that is on the market, it makes no difference. Some ammo (ours) is designed expressly for the CZ-52, and yes I know some folks shoot it in the TT-33. I've never seen it cause a catastrophic failure (i.e. gun turned into a hand grenade), but it will cause a failure over time, which is why we label it as such. The Sub-gun pressure ammo, on the other hand I have seen it cause such a failure in both.

Both guns are great designs, I personally prefer the CZ-52; but we have a lot of history with it as well and not so much with the TT-33. I've shot no less than 10K rounds through TT-33's and I could not guess how many from the CZ-52 over five calibers in the past years. It seems that there are more surplus parts out there for the CZ-52, but I could be wrong there.

1911crazy · « **Reply #29 on:** August 31, 2010, 12:27:02 PM »

Not sure on which one to get? Either its the CZ52 or the tokarev?? Get both!!!! When i can't pick one or the other i always end up with both anyway.
Example;
Heck i had my choice of three different pistols in 7,62x25 in one day, so i purchased all three. Another day the gun shop had two chinese norinco toks in there boxes unfired w/papers one was in 9mm luger and the other was in 7,62x25 of course i purchased both again. Down the road i'll be looking for the other anyway.

The CZ82 in 9mm makarov has to be the hottest buy on the planet right now. I still like the CZ52 and the '30 Tokarev's but for a kick@ss little CCW pistol the CZ82 is it for me anyway. But there's a warning with the cz82 too, once you shoot this one you will want more cz pistols. I think i'm up to 7 now with more to go.