Military Handguns

[S.S.]

I read some previous posts on military handgun power
and would like to put in my 2 cts worth.
The cartridge that seemed to spark a bit of controversy
was the .32 Auto. Not a sledge hammer by no means,
but very efficient. You must take into account that
many military handgun rounds at the turn of the 20th century
(when the .32 was popular for military use)
were not much more powerful than the .32.
The first auto pistol adopted as standard for a military power
appears to have been in 1907 (Although Soldiers did purchase autos for their own use before that) The Austro-Hungarian Empire adopted the
Roth-Steyr model 1907 in 8mm Steyr. This was a large handgun, and the 8mm is only slightly larger than the .32 auto.
The Russians used the 7.62x38 Nagant model 1895 revolver.
the French used an 8mm rimmed cartridge in their revolver,
the Swiss used the 7.5 Nagant
the  Belgians used the 8mm Rast-Gasser
the Japanese had a very anemic 9mm revolver..
The list could go on!
None of these handguns are much more powerful than the .32 auto
and would not be considered for self defense today, But in their day they were state of the art!  God only knows how many men fell to these
weapons.  my question is, are men today any tougher to bring
down today than they were then? I personally don't think so,
The reverse is probably true!
I have several of the above mentioned weapons, and I do not feel
under Gunned having one next to my bed at night.

[1911crazy]

First of all S.Sumner how have you been??  I'm just getting into these C&R military handguns and I'll be the first to admit I don't have too much experience with most of them and the power too.  I've been looking at a Czech CZ  7.62x25 and the russian tokarev in 7.62x25.   Somewhere I read the feet per second is 1600 if thats true thats pretty good a "hot loaded" 357 mag. is around that speed with a 125jhp round.  But i'm not sure what the 7.62x25 round weight is at that speed?  While I'm not thrilled  to aquire a different caliber they sure are interesting and the guns are affordable too.  But the ammo is easy to get so it has its advantages.  What are your thoughts on this caliber?     BigBill

Funny there was a big ruckus here many years ago about a state trooper blowing a guy practically inhalf with a 357 mag hollow points while he was being fired upon by an automatic weapon.  My hats off to the trooper I back them 100%.  But the hollow point contraversy did start but thats another story.   Another story I heard lately a surgeon who was in Vietnam said here in the hospital he never witnessed wounds like the 40cal does since he was in Vietman.

[S.S.]

Doin Just Fine thanks,
I have been too busy to get on the internet much!
As for the question,
I really like the 7.62x25 round.
The 86 Grain slug clocks in at about 1450 fps out of my CZ-52.
It is a fun shooter (After I got it "TUNED UP" a bit)
As for using it for self defense, I think not.
I am a fan of large, slow moving chunks of lead for that!
But I would prefer the 7.62 to a knife or rock or stick!
It has a serious over-penetration problem that a nice
hollow point would solve!
Just a note on the CZ-52, It is not chambered for a true 7.62 Tok.
round. It was chambered for a round designated as the M48.
It was loaded approx. 10% hotter than the standard Tok. Round.
It is quite capable of the 1600 fps you mentioned. it will damage
a TT33 Tok. very quickly if fired in one. I have some of them
and there is a very noticable difference in recoil & muzzle noise
when they are fired.

[1911crazy]

I would never carry one of these military guns for personal protection.
Lately I been night fishing and carrying my 357 ruger security six 2 3/4" BBL. with 140JHP.  Its not the people its the critters I worry about.  The popluations of mountainlions, blackbears, bobcats and coyotes are on the rise here.   Now that their building more housing there pushing them out of the woods into developed areas.   Its just a matter of time until people get attacked here.                                              BigBill

[Mikey]

Hay BigBill and S. Sumner:  Howdy Guys.  Both you fellas know that the 7.62x25 is one of my favorite mil-surp calibers and to avoid the loss of one of my more expensive handguns, my old Tok resides in the bedside drawer.  

Yep!  That 85-88 grain bullet at even 1400'/sec from my Tok has serious overpenetration problems but ya know, that's exactly what I want.  I would rather have something go through and through, leaving leaks and chest decompressions at both ends, than go through the Miami shootout nightmare where the slugs do not exit but also do not provide enough stoping power to end it there.  

S - you're absolutely correct about the differences twixt the 7.62x25mm Tokarev, the 30 Mauser and the M48 rounds but fortunately, the later are becoming more difficult to find and S&B has developed nice powders to obtain that higher velocity without the higher pressures.  

I have seen 85 grain hollow-points in 308 diameter that I would use with the Tok, and there are a couple of book powder charges that will attain the velocities of the original rounds - now that would make for one nasty cartridge and I intend to get a set of dies and bullets, load some up and see how they shoot.  I doubt I'll have to worry much about failures to feed with that bottleneck cartridge, so I'll give it a go and let you fellas know how they work.  I would expect that if the fmj bullet gives full penetration, the HP might also but create a lot more damage on the way through.  Ought to be an interesting experimnet.  Mikey.

[sillydog]

I have several CZ52's and I love that caliber.  I think of it as a necked down 9mm.

I don't particularly like the S&B ammo or most surplus as it is way too hot.  I have developed a technique for making Tokarev brass out of .223 rifle casings.  My favorite load is a 77gr cast .32 caliber slug resized to .308.  Behind this I charge the round with 6gr. of unique.  Let me tell you it sizzles, but not too bad on recoil.  It is quite accurate as well and I enjoy plinking at 50 yards with this gun.

Only thing I don't like is finding that brass I spent all that time making.  It gets tossed all the place.

This pistol should not be compared to pistols that shoot straight sided ammo.  It is in a class by itself.  I agree with the one's on here that would not use it for a concealed carry weapon, or a home defense weapon.  It is more of a world class plinker in my opinion.

[S.S.]

The 7.62x25 is a actually several years older than the 9mm Luger!
It was derived from the .30 Mauser. (Of C96 "Broomhandle" fame).
The Mauser was derived from the .30 Borchardt. Physically the
cartridges are almost identical in measurements (Not Power).
The .30 Borchardt was one of the strangest looking but most accurate
auto pistols ever created.

[1911crazy]

S.Sumner I finally found a picture of a 30 Borchardt you were right it ain't a pretty one.  I guess I'll never see one of those.         BigBill

[Mikey]

Sillydog, S. Sumner and BigBill:  Sillydog - the 9mm is actually a neckless 7.65mm Luger, not a neckless 30 Mauser/7.62x25mm/Borchart round.  Actually, all Georg Luger did was lop the neck off his 7.65mm Luger cartridge and call it the 9mm Parabellum.  

S. Sumner, you are correct about the Borchart being one of the strangest looking but most accurate early semi-autos there is.  It is a strange one alright and I shot one a bunch of years ago.  They appear somewhat ungainly but actually fit well into the hand.  You are also correct about the dimensional similarities betwixt the three cartridges but the Borchart round is more in the ballistic company of the 7.65/30 Luger.  Also, you said it yourself - the 7.62 has a serious overpenetration problem that a nice hollowpoint would solve, and that's the direction I intend to go.  You also mentioned you would not carry it for self defense but I think it was the overpenetration issue that may have formed your intent here.  

I know both pistols, the CZ and the Tok are old designs, and the cartridge is a powerhouse with overpenetration problems but gee fellas, we go hog wild for a 1911 (check the date there) with a known overpenetration issue with ball ammo rather than a 1933 design with similar ballistic concerns.  

I once wrote to Massad Ayoob about the Tok and the 7.62 and his response was that the cartridge and pistol were obsolete designs - all this from a 1911 fan, go figure.  I would love to see an American company produce a Tok type semi auto in different calibers  - there is a lot to be said for the integral hammer/trigger group and guide rails to allow for proper functioning even with bad magazines.  Now, if you need a bigger bore you can always go with a 9mm or if you can find it, a 38 Super bbl.  

BigBill - check out your next gun show, someone in the NE will always have a Borchart, and most often a bunch of 9mm or even 30 caliber Lugers.  Also, I think it may still be out there, some dealer has a long barrelled Walther P-38, with something like an 8" bbl, not a bad cob job but more an interesting oddity.  HTH and M2C.  Mikey.

[1911crazy]

Mikey I seen my dream handgun today its a 50cal I'm not sure what it was the cylinder was as long as a 45/70 shell?? Ther barrel had to be 10 or 12" long it was awesome I have to have it!!!!   A dudleytown gun for sure!!!                                                         BigBill

I'll go back for more info!!!

[Mikey]

BigBill:  don't get that revolver, it will shoot right through those spooks and then you will get nailed for bringing in artillery fire on the neighboring towns.  About the best thing we can arm ourselves with in Dudleytown are squirtguns full of holy water and flashlights with crucifixs on the lens - that should send the formless ones back into hiding, maybe.  

But tell me, please:  is Dudleytown inhabited or is it deserted?  If inhabited by the living, what do they say about all that spooky activity?  Or, do they invoke it to keep people like us out, hmmmm?  Vely int-er-estink.  Just curious.  Mikey.

[1911crazy]

Mikey no one lives in DudleyTown is deserted only stone foundations left there.  They say there is still an old church in ruins but I never found it.  There's a lot more going on there than what I said.  There is something going on there about things getting turned around and not being the same as you seen before.   I had it happen when my tracks disappeared when i back tracked to go to a trail on the right there I never found my back tracks just new tracks where someone walked on the other side of the trail going the other way with the strange hoof prints in the human tracks. But there is something there read the articles/stories on the net!!!!!!                        BigBill

[Mikey]

BigBill - you and I have got to get up there.  Let's just bring plenty of Bibles, Holy Water and Crucifixs, plus a couple of extar boxes of ammo, just in case anything thinks of 'materializing'..  We might have to wait until next spring after the snow has gone but, I think we need to get out there and then report back on our 'travels'..  Yep, this be Mikey.

[kevin.303]

the only military handguns i have experience firing are a 9MM luger naval version and .455 webley. i've seen lots of the 7.62x25 tokarev's at the local gun shops and cheap too. i'll probably buy one when i get my handgun licensce.