Guns & pit bulls

[bckskin2]

I caught a few minutes of a talk radio show the other day. A lady was defending pit bulls to the host. She compared them to guns. They don't hurt people unless abused or misused. She pointed out any time a pit bites the press mentions the breed. Got me to thinking, everytime some one is murdered the local TV news shows the same back drop, a hand holding what appears to be a PPK. Makes no difference if the murder weapon was a knife, a base ball bat, or a rock they show the same picture!
I don't think I have ever seen a head line Lab attacks child, Yorkie mauls owner, Benjie dog bites letter carrier!
Maybe I should get a pit to back up my Ruger.
Jerry

[hillbill]

when yu take a breed of dog and for many generations selectivly breed for agressivness and ferocity, yu end up with a breed of dog thats agressive and fierce. why dont people understand that?pits like to fight just like blueticks like to hunt coon and labs love hunting ducks.aint all that hard to figger out.

[gypsyman]

I totally agree Hillbill. Alot can be attibuted to how the dog was raised. While I would defend a persons right to own any dog they want, I know that would be one breed I wouldn't want around kids. To many times I've seen kids who weren't old enough to know better,pull ears,kick,yank tales,etc. And I'm just not sure as to how a pit bull would react to that. And I'ld hate to have to take a youngster to the hospital over an over aggressive dog. Plus I'ld have to take a couple Alieve's for my back, 'cause after I had to dig a deep hole for the dog to take a dirt nap, my back would still hurt. gypsyman

[Rustyinfla]

  IIRC it was the late Jeff Cooper who when asked about having a pit bull for home protection gave this answer.

  A dog for home protection is meant to be a burglar alarm not a land mine.

[bckskin2]

I agree with Cooper! I would not buy any dog for protection, but I sure miss my old dog. She was my eyes & ears in the dark. I also knew I could count on her if any body was stupid enough to get agressive to slow the down long enough for me to draw.
I really would not wat a pit just because if they do bite it will be bad, same as a Rott. I just thought the comparison to guns was interesting.
Jerry

[Mohawk]

  I have two beautiful Rotweilers. They love playing with the rabbit, adult cat, 5 week old kitten, and give love and attention to an autistic child. They defend their home, loved ones, and property as well, the way anyone on this forum would. I am ENTIRELY against any "dangerous breed" rules people impose on society and responsible pet owners.  It's all about people with too much time on their hands, just like gun control advocates. The same folks that are afraid of guns appear to be afraid of dogs. They are dogs!!! Psycho felons drive 2,000 plus lb automobiles, legally, and they raise a stink about dogs??? 

[Mikey]

Good for the lady defending the Pit Bulls - interesting comparison to guns although factual. 

While I agree with the history of that particular breed I also believe that properly raising and training any canine is absolutely necessary to prevent instinctual behaviors like agression.  I have met my fair share of Pit Bulls, Rotties, Dobes and junkyard Poodles and never felt uneasy. 

Cooper was right.  They are a early warning system.  jmtcw.

[wareagleguy]

Good for the lady defending the Pit Bulls - interesting comparison to guns although factual.

What do you mean?  How is the comparison factual>

[nomosendero]

Good for the lady defending the Pit Bulls - interesting comparison to guns although factual.

What do you mean?  How is the comparison factual>

Ditto
 I would have to ask the same question, how is the comparison factual?

Actually, it isn't logical in any way. A Pit Bull can decide on their own to bite & they often do. A gun decides nothing, but a tool used by the user. The lady's comparison is silly.

[nw_hunter]

I totally agree Hillbill. Alot can be attibuted to how the dog was raised. While I would defend a persons right to own any dog they want, I know that would be one breed I wouldn't want around kids. To many times I've seen kids who weren't old enough to know better,pull ears,kick,yank tales,etc. And I'm just not sure as to how a pit bull would react to that. And I'ld hate to have to take a youngster to the hospital over an over aggressive dog. Plus I'ld have to take a couple Alieve's for my back, 'cause after I had to dig a deep hole for the dog to take a dirt nap, my back would still hurt. gypsyman

Several years ago I inherited a Stafford shire Terrier (AKA Pit Bull)
I've always been a Labrador kind of dog owner, so I was not real pleased to raise this set of teeth with legs!

Katie has been with us going on five years now, and is the most laid back, people friendly, kid lovin (She even loves cats) "YUCK" kind of dog, I have ever had. She would make a terrible guard dog, because she would love the burglar.

She's been raised with children and I would trust her with a new born.
The problem with Pit's and other dogs of their types, are people like M Vick and others that use them for their sick pleasure. They do have the tools to be very bad!

They are not the brightest dog on the planet, but they are one of the most loving one.
Would I have another Pit?......I don't think so, but I wouldn't take a Government bail out, for old Katie!

[Redtail1949]

I have had the good fortune to have raised many dogs and i have been around many different breeds. I have seen many pit bull dogs that were very good and well mannerd pets. However, this breed is so powerfull that if one does attack I doubt anyone with out a weapon unless very strong could have any hope fending off one of these animals. They were developed for their power and fearlessness and believe me they if provoked or just defending their turf will exhibit every bit of their heritage.

Their bite power is tremendous and can easily crush bones and rip muscle to shreds. I know I have volunteered many times, dressed up in leather protective gear, to have these as well as other breeds turned loose on me. Believe me it is very frightning even in such controlled circumstances. I found that two German shepards were a very formidable animal an could infict pain with that gear on. The pit bull because of his bite power about twice that of the shepards was just with one dog very painfull through the gear and always required other handlers there to pull them off as they would not do so on command. The shepards would stop on command.

The Pitts could bite on the neck with the very thick leather protection and just about suffacate me with their crushing bite and the other handlers had to be ready to react instantly. They literaly would bruise the arms or legs through the thickly padded leathers.
It was if the Pitt Bull is in his own world once he goes on the attack, single minded to take out whatever he is on.

They are indeed beautiful animals and make good pets but the owners of such an animal have got to be on scene with him at all times if children or even adults are in the yard with him, such as a BBQ. Its just that , if something happens, that animal can be deadly and in a very short period of time.


It is because of this I would never have one as a pet for the dangers are great and very real. Not that other breeds will not be set off for reasons unknown it would be much easier to handle them than a Pitt Bull that was bred to fight and die a warrior. The other breeds on the most part will not exibit a non stop never ending assault like the Pitts.

[mirage1988]

Good for the lady defending the Pit Bulls - interesting comparison to guns although factual.

What do you mean?  How is the comparison factual>

Ditto
 I would have to ask the same question, how is the comparison factual?

Actually, it isn't logical in any way. A Pit Bull can decide on their own to bite & they often do. A gun decides nothing, but a tool used by the user. The lady's comparison is silly.

I see your point nomo, but what she meant was the media coverage of dog attacks are the same as their coverage of shootings. A shooting, no matter what the circumstances or weapon used was " a murderous rampage with an assault rifle" or a dog biting someone is "a ruthless attack by a dog trained to kill"  I have dogs, a great dane and a boxer,  both breeds that will attack if provoked (as most dogs will). I am also a gun owner, don't own an assault rifle, but I believe that you have the right to own one, or have a pit bull, until you prove that you aren't a fitting gun-owner (or dog-owner). These two issues are actually very similar. (what happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'?)

[jjas]

Redtail1949

It is because of this I would never have one as a pet for the dangers are great and very real. Not that other breeds will not be set off for reasons unknown it would be much easier to handle them than a Pitt Bull that was bred to fight and die a warrior. The other breeds on the most part will not exibit a non stop never ending assault like the Pitts.

That's why I don't want one and don't want to be around one.  I'm sure they can be as gentle as a lamb in most cases, but I don't want any dog around me that I can't get off me if they decide to attack.  

No thanks.

[mirage1988]

Redtail1949

It is because of this I would never have one as a pet for the dangers are great and very real. Not that other breeds will not be set off for reasons unknown it would be much easier to handle them than a Pitt Bull that was bred to fight and die a warrior. The other breeds on the most part will not exibit a non stop never ending assault like the Pitts.

That's why I don't want one and don't want to be around one.  I'm sure they can be as gentle as a lamb in most cases, but I don't want any dog around me that I can't get off me if they decide to attack.  

No thanks.

Dogs know when you are scared of them and will exploit it. I have been bitten once by a dog I rescued. They aren't rattlesnakes, they bite for a reason. I picked up an Irish Setter from a rescue in wisconsin that seemed like a hunter, but was beaten by someone. Took her to a game farm, she bit my buddy when he tried to pet her, luckily he had leather gloves on. A few days later she bit me on the hand, didn't break any bones but a good bite. Had her put down, still regret it to this day.

[jjas]

Mirage1988

Dogs know when you are scared of them and will exploit it.

That's not the point.  The point is, while a pit may be as gentle as a lamb in most cases, IF that dog decides to bite (for whatever reason) you can't get them off.

That's the point.

[mirage1988]

Actually the point is the gov't trying to tell us what we can or can't do, or what we can or can't own.

[Sourdough]

How about your neighbors making the decision as to what you can or cannot have.

Guy in our neighbor hood brought in a Pitt Bull.  I gave him a warning, never let it be found on my property.  Six weeks later I opened my back door and there it stood.  Fatal mistake, I called the owner to come and pick up the body.  He bought a second one and brought it into the subdivision.  Within six months it had killed two other dogs in the neighborhood, that were on chains.  This started a law suite.  My hunting partner and I were out walking one evening and when we turned a corner there it stood.  My partner's Colt 1911 stopped it instantly.  We drug it down the street to the owners drive and left it there with a note.  After the law suites were settled he decided to get a Lab.

Remember people talking the same way about Wolf Hybrids.  How it depended on how they were raised and used.  That if they were raised with children they were very playful and loving.  Also remember when one of those loving hybrids walked up to a new born sniffed the babies head then bit the babies head so fast the mother holding the baby did not have time to react till after it was too late.  Dead infant.  A few months later the same thing happened in another household.  The sudden fatal one bit killing of two infants was too much.  Wolf hybrids are now banned in Alaska.  You may not breed or raise wolf hybrids in this state period.

Pit bulls have been banned from Ft Wainwright also.  While a few people complained, most folks breathed a sigh of relief.

[mirage1988]

How about your neighbors making the decision as to what you can or cannot have.

Guy in our neighbor hood brought in a Pitt Bull.  I gave him a warning, never let it be found on my property.  Six weeks later I opened my back door and there it stood. 

I'm glad It wasn't me standing at your back step needing a jump start. This topic was about "pit-bulls" not wolf hybrids.

That isn't the big picture though, sourdough.

Do you think that the gov't has sense enough to discern between dangerous dogs?
Do you think that the gov't has sense enough to discern between dangerous guns?

When we give the gov't the authority to 'protect' us- we are screwed.

[ironglow]

  I tend to agree with Cooper..primarily a burglar alarm. During my younger years I raised, & hunted Jack Russells and Airedales. Generally speaking, the Airedales were a good proposition for a home guard dog...normally, friendly to aloof with strangers . That persists so long as the stranger makes no aggressive, assaulting move against a member of the family he loves. The Jacks were about the same in disposition, with exceptions and if as large as a Pit or shepherd..big bears would have to run...
  While I am inclined to think Pits and Rotts do have a higher incidence of aggressiveness than many other breeds, and anyone who decides to have one should keep it responsibly confined. ...But then, I have never been one who allowed his dogs to "run the neighborhood' even when I lived where my neighbors were a mile away.
   That guy Sourdough spoke of was a pure idiot as I see it..and he was too stupid to learn the first time. Here is a case where the owner should have had enough sense to keep his dog confined in the subdivision. He asked for it..he got it !
  For my part, out of consideration for my neighbors I would avoid getting a dog they greatly feared..
   
   ....Except for the rare case where I had such kind of neighbors that needed a little fear..

[Questor]

Over 50% of all maulings by dogs in the US are done by rottweilers and pit bulls. They are dangerous animals. There are plenty of other good guard dogs that aren't as dangerous, so you may want to consider something else if you're considering one of these breeds. 

Aside from objective facts, there is also the broad public perception that these dogs are dangerous, and this is amplified by the news media every time a pit bull bites somebody.

Doesn't it just seem too risky to bother with one of these breeds?

[magooch]

My question would be, who in this litigious society would want the liability of having an animal around that could turn on someone and cause great harm.  I have been threatened by a few dogs for doing nothing more than riding my bicycle on public roads.  I told a couple of the owners that if their dog ever bites me, I'm going to shoot it and then I'm coming for you.  I never saw the dogs again.

[Graybeard]

My personal experience with the various "dangerous breeds" is limited and I've never owned any of them. I am not really a dog person and do not own one at all. I really don't even like dogs to be perfectly honest.

I will say tho that I've never yet seen a chow, pit bull Terrier, Rotweiler or doberman that I considered safe to be around for anyone other than their owner. If seen on my property running loose any and all of them will be killed and buried with no hesitation or remorse. I won't say no one owns one of them that they cannot control but I will say I've never yet seen one of any of those breeds that the owners could or did control.

The doberman is a very high strung dog and very excitable. Once long ago I quite litterally scared one to death. I gave it a heart attack I guess. It was preventing us from getting a washer and dryer belonging to me at an old house we used to use as a hunting camp. It had been rented out to some other folks and we went back to get my washer and dryer I had there when we used it as a hunting camp. The renters weren't there but their doberman was.

My friend who's wife owned the place wanted to wait to see if the renters would return but after an hour or so they had not so I told him to drive around back and let's get the washer and dryer. He asked me what about the doberman. I assured him I'd deal with it regardless of what was required.

I jumped out of the truck as it was on my side and with .357 Mag in hand began yelling at the top of my voice at the dog chasing it and yelling at the same time. That dog ran as fast as it could from me and when we left was seen leaning against the house on the far side shaking like a leaf in the wind. It was dead the next morning. I was fully prepared to shoot it had it been required tho.

I've found darn few bad ass dogs that will stand their ground against me when I make a full on attack as I did at the doberman. Most run and from that point on avoid me like the plague but then I think such animals can sense fear and hate and such and it's likely they understand just how much I hate and loathe them.

[Sourdough]

Many years ago a friend decided she liked Dobermans.  Sue got a Doberman puppy so she could raise it right.  Sue demanded it be gentle with her daughter and baby boy.  As the dog grew he became very protective of Sue and her son David.  Sue was a stay at home Mom so she was always there interacting with the dog and kids directing their every move. 

One day Sue needed to go shopping.  Sue left David in care of her husband Gerald.  David being a mischievous little brat was doing things Gerald had told him not to do.  Gerald finally gave David a swat on the behind and David squalled.  Here came Ike the doberman.  Ike bite Gerald on the arms and legs.  chasing him into a corner of the back yard fence.  When Gerald went to jump the fence Ike hit him and knocked him to the ground.  Gerald ended up sitting on the ground, backed into the corner of the fence.  Ike was in his face, teeth bared and ready to bite.  Ike kept Gerald there for over two hours. 

When Sue got home she wondered why David was alone in the house.  Going out back she found her husband cowering in the corner.  Ike went to Sue as soon as she came out the door.  Gerald went inside and got his pistol.  They had Ike cremated.

The point is that it is not only Pit bulls, but other breeds that can be dangerous as well.  And no matter the up bringing, they can all be dangerous.  Pit Bulls, Bull Mastiffs,  , Dobermans, Rottweilers, Akitas, German Shepards, any of the big dogs bred for fighting or guard duty.  As for Wolf Hybrids they are dogs too.

I've even seen a baby get mauled by a Pomeranian, the babies face was ripped up by the little dog.  Mother was playing with baby on blanket in back yard.  Phone rang, mother got up and walked 20ft to the phone.  Little dog ran in a grabbed the baby by the face and started bitting and shaking.  Any breed of dog can be dangerous.  Just some more than others.

[Questor]

Dog breeders typically take temperament into account when developing a breed. Interestingly, chows were originally bred as livestock to be eaten and temperament wasn't a factor in their development.

I don't suppose there is anything but a coincidental connection between chow the dog breed and chow the slang term for food.

Do you drink red wine or white with chow?

[RaySendero]

Well if I were to pick a dog as my companion for outback survival and hunting - It would be a pit!

Now having said - I would NOT trust them around neighbors pets or let one run loose simply because of the breeding!  Even a properly raised pit will fight to protect their master, their territory and themselves!  And they will do this based on what they perceive as a threat weather real or not - But not necessarily what you perceive!  I've also had other breeds that had a very calm sweet demeanor, but have seen them turn unexpectedly very viscous when this "protection" instinct kicks-in!

I'll relate an experience I had with a pit bred to fight.  There was a police crack down in the county on dog fighting.  One or more of the breeders dropped 15 to 20 of their dogs around our town!  I heard about this from the rumor mill at work that morning before it was public.  So...about 10am, my wife calls and says someone dropped off a dog on our street and she had put it in the back fence!!!

I told her about what I heard and not to let any of our other dogs in that fence.  When home on lunch break and sure enough it was a battle scared pit.  He was huddled up at the far side of the fence out in the sun.  It was summer and very hot that day!

I put my fish billy in the back of my pants and got a dish of water for him.   I went about half way toward him and sat down under a shade tree.  Put the dish down in front of me and called him.  He was slow and stiff getting up obviously in some pain.  He came over to me cautiously. I extend my hand low for him to smell -He did then drank some water and let me pet him.   He had old scars and a few newly open ones.  I got up and it spooked him - but no growl he just ran away.  I when in and got him a can of dog food and returned to my shady spot.  He came back, smelled my hand again and began eating.  I wanted to see how aggressive he might be so I petted him as he was eating.  He let me pet him with no response.  Then he lay down and put his head in my lap and I petted and talked to him some more.  Got up agian - This time he just stayed there.  Got some medicine for his cuts. Came back - He got up - I sat down and he came back over and lay down.  I fixed him up as best I could.  Touched a sore spot and he yelped, but he let me fix it too even though I could tell it hurt! - Never growled!

I could not keep him as I could never trust him with/around my other dogs, so I called the pound to come get him and they did w/o incident.  However that dog, even bred to fight, was not aggressive, had a calm demeanor and a need I believe to find a new master.

[SM Bob]

Mirage1988

Dogs know when you are scared of them and will exploit it.

That's not the point.  The point is, while a pit may be as gentle as a lamb in most cases, IF that dog decides to bite (for whatever reason) you can't get them off.

That's the point.

+1
I know for a fact because I have seen it with my own 2 eyes on 2 occasions where
"sweet, innocent, loving, gentle, great with kids, the perfect family dog," pit bulls
that was raised from a puppy and never in any way shape or form mistreated
or beaten what so ever, instantly for no reason what so ever, snapped and attacked
in the most viscous manner. One attacked another dog that had been together
with that pit bull for years with never any hint of hostility between the two dogs.
The dog was a German Shepard  that was killed when that pit bull locked down
on its neck. The other was a friend I worked with that had a pit bull who was
a real nice dog, or so everyone thought, it snapped one day and attacked a friend of
his in his backyard for no reason. The guy's leg was severely injured.  Both of
the dogs had to be destroyed. Neither of these dogs gave any kind of warning
that they would do anything like this. I can't help but think what if some young
child that didn't know better went and pulled one of those dogs tails or something
else to cause it to flip out. That kid would be dead! If you choose to own a pit
bull, that's your business. I have seen some that are as some here described.
Very nice dogs. And I have seen others that were a time bomb that went off
unexpectedly for no reason. I personally wouldn't own one. They are potentionally
very dangerous.

                                       Robert
 

[beerbelly]

Once many years ago I had a Doberman almost kill me. I won the fight but just barley and with some luck. I was about 30 years old. Today he would do me in less time than it takes to say it.
  That said two weeks ago I had to have my yeller lab put down, dam near killed me.  But I will have no more dogs. I am to old to start with another.
                    Beerbelly

[Skunk]

"sweet, innocent, loving, gentle, great with kids, the perfect family dog"

I had my last German Shepherd from an eight week old pup and the above description could have easily described her. When my youngest daughter was born, my Shepherd's attitude never changed. As my daughter grew from a infant to a toddler, the two became good playmates. However, never once did we let the two play together without the Shepherd being on a short leash (attached to me) and wearing a steel wire muzzle especially made for German Shepherds. It's not that I thought the dog was dangerous, rather, I was just not going to take the chance to find out.

[WylieKy]

Dog for dog Pit's are one of the least likely to attack a human.  They are very animal and VERY dog aggressive, especially intact males, but rarely human agressive.  The problem is that they are SO powerful.  It's like airplanes being safer than cars, but when things go bad in an airplane, they go BAD!

[Redtail1949]

The Shephard Breeds on the most part are not what i consider a dangerous dog. They , with some exceptions, will adapt very well to families and children. However, one must really be alert to any developing aggression.

Pitts, Dobermans, Chows, and Rottweilders are another matter altogether. they were bred with the main goals of aggression, fearlessness, and with no consideration of being a family pet.

It is those so called ideals coupled with the tremendous power of these animals that is sorta like giving a child a loaded gun to play with.

 I am a dog owner and firearms owner and I do love both. Yet I feel I can control my firearms much better than I could control any of those animals.