Author Topic: 357 for black bear??  (Read 4411 times)

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Offline oldfart

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357 for black bear??
« on: May 09, 2009, 01:44:57 PM »
i just got a sp101 and love the gun, will be taking it fishing very soon when the river goes down some from all this rain. now where i live in kentucky not any bears are here on a permanent basis that i know of, but a few people have spotted bears passing thru while driving, and one lady called a game warden to tell him one was in her back yard. i spoke with the warden, and indeed a bear had been there. well this has got my wife a little nervous, she loves to fish but where we usally go is pretty far back on an old farm road. its about 2 miles from the nearest house, but the fishing at this place is great. my wife is worried that my 357 sp101 won't be enough gun to stop a black bear, i think for the most part they will flee instead of attacking. but in the remote case one does attack will the 357 be enough gun? and if so what bullets will be the best? thanks for any help.

Offline Swampman

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2009, 01:46:31 PM »
Bob Milek convinced me the .357 isn't enough.  5 shots in the forehead at point blank range and the bear just kept coming.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline oldfart

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2009, 02:24:41 PM »
well i guess i'll take my sp101 back to the store and see if they have anything bigger, i won't shoot one unless i have too, but if i have too i want enough gun. i wish i could afford to just buy another gun but times are tough, mabe i'll take some long guns and see what i can do.

Offline Swampman

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2009, 02:28:37 PM »
I wouldn't worry too much about bears.  Humans are a lot more dangerous.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Badnews Bob

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2009, 03:14:23 PM »
.357 is usually good enuff for the bears your gonna see here in Kentucky, For one thing never shoot a bear in the head. That just makes them mad. Also to unless you get between a sow and her cubs you will not often see a black bear, We have several living around my place and I've not seen one in the four years I've lived there. (Southern Rockcastle co ) Load up with some stout hardcast 180gr bullets and you'll be fine. 8)
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Offline Dee

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2009, 03:19:58 PM »
Isn't if funny how a bow and arrow, or a black powder rifle is enough for a bear but, a 357 magnum with heavy loads isn't enough?
If a bear is charging, unless you hit him where it counts with ANY round, it won't be enough. ::)
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Offline Swampman

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2009, 03:28:18 PM »
As long as it's in the ear.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Flash

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2009, 12:57:14 AM »
Isn't if funny how a bow and arrow, or a black powder rifle is enough for a bear but, a 357 magnum with heavy loads isn't enough?
If a bear is charging, unless you hit him where it counts with ANY round, it won't be enough. ::)
This time of the year I wouldn't use anything less than a 44 mag to go into bear country. A sow will close the distance fast if you are a threat and a 357 would be like throwing rocks if she's on the large side. It's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.  ::)
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Offline GatCat

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2009, 02:19:09 AM »
Since you already have the .357, and as you said, "times are tough", I'd say you would be adequately served with it. I'd use the Federal CastCore 180 Grain, a tough lead bullet with a wide meplat. Be sure to practice with that ammo a bit, as it will probably shoot quite a bit higher then other loads you have used. Practice at the range you would use it, if needed, which is probably around 7 yards. If poisonous snakes are also an issue when you go out, I'd arrange the cylinder with a "snake load" first to fire, followed by the CastCores.
Mark

Offline Ak.Hiker

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2009, 08:12:29 PM »
I have shot tons of full power 180 grain hard cast loads out of my 3 1/16 inch Ruger SP 101. Buffalo Bore loads the hottest 180 cast load on the market. They hit point of aim up close in my Ruger. They will penetrate deeper than a 240 grain JSP out of a 44 Magnum. There is a bear guide in Wasilla Alaska that has carried a 4 inch 357 Magnum loaded with non expanding bullets for back up bear protection. When testing loads for penetration on bear he said that the 357 when loaded with non expanding bullets had about the same penetration as the 250 grain cast loads in the 44 Magnum. If you can order the Buffalo Bore load that would be my first pick. The Federal Cast Core is a good one as well just not as hot as the BB. Stay away from self defense type hollow points due to lack of penetration.

Offline Dee

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2009, 10:39:04 AM »
There are many experts whom have never shot a bear, or even been close to one in the wild, but are absolutely positive that the 357 magnum loaded heavy is not appropriate for bear protection. Hmmmmmm
I too have never shot a bear, HOWEVER, I laugh quietly (sometimes not so quietly) at the "also self-proclaimed experts" on the appropriate DANGEROUS FERAL HOG artillery when I and others have downed these "man killer hogs" with a 223 for years that go well into the 350 lb range.
Carry what you have, and what you can hit with. Also be aware that a bear charge is although rare, but filled with adrenaline on both your AND the bears part. Do not expect a miracle, but pray for one if you are charged.
I think that Ak.Hiker, has the jest of the matter, and could probably name a few native Alaskans whom shoot polar bear with a 22-250. There is no miracle round. If you are afraid of bears, get a pump 12 gauge with slugs. Now THAT! Is indeed a fight stopper, bear or man. ;)
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Offline Lee Robinson

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2009, 11:42:20 AM »
We are talking about black bears here...not grizzlies, Kodiaks, or Browns.

I personally wouldn't recommend head shots with a short barreled 5 shot revolver on a moving target. Too hard to hit a small brain that is moving. If it was stationary, it would work if you placed it between the eyes and down into the back of neck where the bullet might come out bear's back. This way, your bullet woulld taking out the brain stem...where the bear lives...which would stop any size bear IMO.

But, that would be a hard shot with a revolver...until the bear got close and then you would have already spent your 5 shots from an SP101.

So, I would recommend that you go for center mass OR perhaps consider something with more rounds.
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Offline oldfart

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2009, 08:15:35 AM »
i just got back from the gun shop, went to get some ammo any ammo. well all he had but had a good bunch of was the hornady 140 ftx load, leverevolution they call it. how will this perform in my sp101, and gp100?

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2009, 08:51:43 AM »
My answer is Yes.
those 140 grain bullets will be better than anything lighter.
If it is the best you can get then they will work.  With this ammo buying crazy period what ever you stoke your gun with is better than nothing.
I tend to like bigger and heavier but use what you have.
When I first moved west I really wanted to go elk hunting and read everything I could about it.
All the "experts" were saying 300 Win Mag was the min for the hunt.  I wondered what they used before 1953 when 300WM was introduced.  Do no one hunt Elk?  No they used what they had.  30-30, 44-40, 30-40Krag..... 
Heck the world record elk was taken with a 30-40K.
Will 357 work on black bear?... YES!  has it killed a bunch?....YES!
And you are not hunting with the little hand cannon but keeping it as Personal protection just in case.
If you were hunting bear we would all say bigger gun with a longer sight radius, some will say bigger bullet, but not all would say larger caliber.  Have fun fishing.  Make a little bit of noise every now and then and the Bears will steer clear of you.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2009, 09:43:04 AM »
It wouldn't be my first choice but it's better than a sharp stick.  :o

I've not tried any of the Hornady LeveRevolution ammo yet. It's intended for use in rifles so I'd assume it's a bit tougher than their XTP-HPs but maybe not as tough as the XTP-SP. For bear (an animal I have ZERO experience with) I think I'd personally want a heavy for caliber tough bullet like a 180 cast bullet if I actually thought I might have to shoot a bear with it.

From what I understand from folks who live in bear country avoidance is the best defense. Assuming they hear you coming well in advance most folks knowledgeable about them seem to think they'll generally avoid you. BUT ya might walk up on a bear on a kill and ya might get between a mama and her cubs and from what I hear both are bad news situations.

It takes mighty steady nerves and a darn good shot to bring down a running critter with a handgun regardless of what the critter is. A bear on a determined charge sure is gonna play havoc with that calm steady nerves needed for even an outstanding handgun marksman to do the job. I really can't imagine what it might be like.

The closest I've come was dropping a roughly 200 pound hog headed my way but I really didn't feel like he had mayhem in mind tho where I was standing there was darn little room to either side of me for him and the dog chasing him to pass by me. I dropped him with a single 300 XTP from my S&W 29 between the eyes. My shot was less than a half inch from the spot I intended it to go and he dropped like a sack of rocks. He wasn't running full tilt by any means and wasn't a bear. I was calm and steady and made the shot count. Would I could I if it were a bear running full tilt at me? Dunno, I'd like to think so should the need arise but I don't live or hunt in bear country and doubt I'll ever need to find out.

If I did I'd sure rather it be a .44 mag in hand than a .357 mag but I'd use what I had and do the best I could. I think even in bear country you'll have more trouble with humans than bears and a .357 mag is fine medicine for two legged predators.


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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2009, 09:45:04 AM »
Get a can of bear spray , carry the sp101 as back up , better yet learn how to act in bear country and stay out of trouble . Bears don't like suprises , don't like you close to their cubs , will leave most of the time if given a chance , will explore anything that smells like food ( so don't grill your fish, wipe your hands on your clothes and get near a bear. RESPECT them cause all of the above may be new to the bear .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2009, 09:50:16 AM »
Also most bears i have seen in the wild i could smell them before i got close  , i could smell where they had been if they had not been gone long . We duck and goose hunt in Canada , so if we are landing on a bar or point to set up and it smells like a garbage dump we move on .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline bubba

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2009, 04:08:29 PM »
Anyone who shoots a bear in the forehead is just looking for trouble and deserves to be atacked. I agree Dee.  I have shot bears with a 50 cal muzzleloader and they die.  I think my 357 blackhawk would do the trick. 
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Offline rawhidekid

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2009, 02:08:28 PM »
The problem isn't so much the caliber as much as it is the handgun.  A snubnose SP101 is definetly not what you wany, a 6 inch gp100 or Blackhawk would be min in my book.  I doubt you could control an SP101 with 180 grn bullets. 8)
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Offline Ak.Hiker

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2009, 07:00:32 PM »
For the hot 180 grain 357 Magnum loads out of an SP 101 the Hogue Monogrips are helpful. 

Offline Mikey

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2009, 01:13:56 AM »
old fart:  it isn't the caliber, it is the load.  The last I used soft nosed 357 slugs on a black bear sow (late 60s) and they were the wrong loads; they would not penetrate the grizzle plate or her tough skull worth a darn - just like Milek's soft nosed loads.  She put me up a tree and the last shot was to her left eye socket at about 3 feet distance and that killed her.  That is when I learned about hard cast semi-wadcutter slugs and have used them since. 

My preferred cast loads at the time used the old Keith (Lyman) 358429 that weighed about 170 gn and in encounters with other black bear out to 25 yds those slugs, over a max charge of 2400, would penetrate t&t the chest or bust the on-side shoulder and pass through the chest.  I always add a 'finisher' and never had any of those hard cast Keith slugs slip off a skull. 

Bear have rather sloped foreheads, or at least the ones I have dealt with have had fairly drastically shapped (sloped) foreheads and soft nosed slugs have a tendency to deform, flatten and/or skid off the sloped part of their skull.  If your hard cast square shouldered or flat nosed slug hits square on it will penetrate.  A parallel can be taken from a Elmer Keith encounter with a bull and a 38-40.  Keith liked the 38-40 cailber, experimented with it and handloaded for it.  He was carrying his 38-40 one day when he 'had a encounter' with a angry bull and had to dispatch it.  He fired his first shot, a factory 180 gn 3/4 jacketed soft nose dead on into the bull's skull and the bullet flattened and popped off, just angering the bull more, which almost got Keith and his horse killed.  Keith lambasted those factory slugs as near useless but almost forgot to mention that the second shot fired, one of his 38-40 handloads with a hard cast slug, drilled the bull straight through the skull, dropping it immediately. 

I would not feel undergunned or under-armed with a 357 in Black Bear country.  My 357 is a 3.5" Model 27.  I now make up for the short barrel by using heavier bullets and have preferred the 200 gn hard cast more traditional style semi wadcutter from either Colorado Cast Bullets or Mt. Baldy Bullets.  Ron Reed (Reed's Custom Ammo), one of our Moderators makes another style of 200 gn, gas checked, semi wadcutter that wears a larger metplat than the same weight Keith style slug and is a wicked lookin' long heavy bullet.  I load my 200 grain slugs over a old Winchester factory load of 296 powder that gives me lower pressures with the 200 gn slugs than with the 158 grain slugs.  If you handload at all I feel the 200 gn slug would be the load to use in your 357.  jmtcw.  Mikey.

Offline rawhidekid

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2009, 02:45:22 AM »
I have owned,(notice past tence}, Ruger Sp101 and the Hogue grip made standard .357 Mag usable without pain.  I dang sure would not want to shoot full power 180 Grn out of one.  The Mod 27 three inch has twice the size grip.  My point was that with a six inch barrel you have gained full use of the cartridge velocity/power.  With a two or evan three inch barrel you hamstring the benefit of the heavyer bullet.  You are already using a caliber that is marginal for the game intended,( think .44 or .45 cal 240-300 grain bullet). 8)IMO
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Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2009, 03:09:38 PM »
You are looking at the difference between stopping and killing, I would say. .357 will kill 'em deader than a hammer all week long... with a properly placed bullet. From my experience a 180gr. Nosler Partition out of a 300WM through lungs and out the shoulder took a good half a minute to stop a #240 boar. The first few seconds were pure whirling dervish claws and teeth popping. After watching that I would be fine with a .357, cause I really don't think a .44 is going to be the difference that a 300WM ain't.
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Offline rawhidekid

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2009, 01:38:04 AM »
On another thred;  there was a vidio of shooting hogs with an H&R Buffalo Clasic in 45-70.  Every one fell on it's side immediatly running in place till it expired.  the one exception was hit poorly and should of been shot again but was'nt.  That one just drug it's collapsed back legs off the opening in the brush.  The 300 win mag and .357 are small entants hoping to expand to something larger;  the .44 and .45 are already bigger than an expanded .357 from the start.  they poke a large hole all the way though and if hit bone will ancor if using a WFNGC.(wide flat nosed gas checked bullet) ;DIMHO
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Offline drdougrx

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2009, 03:05:43 AM »
These are fun threads.....My 2 cents based on killing 3 Black Bears (one at 385lbs, one at 150lbs and one at 200lbs) is that the .357 will do the job with a hard cast bullet over 150gr.  HOWEVER...to be honest...it would not be my primary hunting gun as I think the greater slap potential of a larger caliber bullet is preferred (BY ME).  If you're sitting in a tree stand and have the time to aim and fire...have at it, though I suspect an SP101 with a 3" barrel will be difficult at best and I'd be very uncomfortable shooting this kinda gun at distances of more that 25yards.  I've toyed with the idea of toting my 3" Model 60 with 180gr hard cast as a back-up for hogs and bears...but...it sits next to my 4" SW Mountain gun in 44mag and then there's the 300gr mag-XTP over lots a H110....no matter...

Wouln't be my 1st choice.  Just my opinion take it or leave it.......
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Offline rawhidekid

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2009, 03:15:01 AM »
Smith & Wesson has stated that any frame below the L will not stand up to a heavy diet of full mag loads.  That said, you did say the 60 would be a backup.  Shot placement is the important point, and how one reacts to hazardis situations.  I once read of a photographer who was killed by a angry mama bear.  His camera had pictures of her all the way to him.  He never drew the revolver on his hip he was so caught up in his craft! ???
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Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2009, 05:38:06 AM »
Now you aren't trying to tell me a .44 mag at any point in its flight path has more killing ability than a 300 mag are you? Unless that bullet disconnects the brain from the rest of the nervous system the bear has time to ruin your world at defensive distances. Short of explosives the .357 properly applied is as good as anything in a self defense situation against a bear.
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Offline rawhidekid

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2009, 07:53:55 AM »
What I hope to convey is that small fast bullets can zip through soft tissue without expantion or any real damage.  A heavy sharp shouldered bullet passing through side to side if not hitting vitals should leave a blood trail to follow.  Although with a bear that may not be your main problem at the time.  I read once that a blackpowder hunter shot a grizzly in the head and it dropped instanly.  As he stadled it to start skinning it woke up,(just nocked out), luckily he had on a .44mag handgun to end the bear. 8)
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2009, 02:06:42 PM »
One of my cousins in NC tells a similar story about shooting a black bear with a 35 Rem in the head.  They wresteled it in to the station waggon and on the way to the barn to gut and skin it it woke up.
They said at that time it became a 3 stooges movie.

Offline sixshot

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Re: 357 for black bear??
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2009, 04:43:23 PM »
  5 shots on the head of a bear sounds like pretty good shooting to me.....but it wasn't a gun problem, it was a bullet problem. Tough animals require tough bullets & using soft nose anything on bears is asking for trouble. But you do have to hit them, a bear isn't impressed with shots in the dirt, you have to whack him & keep whacking.
  I read once where Paco Kelly had taken several bears with a 357, don't remember the slugs but I'll bet they were hard. My best bear (six taken) was with a 10" 44 using Elmers 250 cast, the fight lasted maybe 15 seconds, shot him at about 85 yds. He measured 6' 9".






My son's bear was a little bit bigger!!  This record book monster measured 7' 9".





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