5 Dead After U.S. Soldier Opens Fire at Camp Liberty

[teamnelson]

Bound to happen eventually, just thankful it's taken awhile.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,519788,00.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/11/AR2009051103143.html

This chaplain has a lot of opinions on the why's and wherefores, but they are all heavily colored by personal experience so I may lack the objectivity sitting in DC for the last decade has afforded others.

[Questor]

There can only be one solution: Change the military so that soldiers can no longer have access to firearms. It's such an obvious solution. With all those young men and guns around somebody's bound to fly off the handle at least once every ten years and commit mayhem. (Meanwhile the neighborhoods of Chicago where community activists are most active have only 15 murders per month because firearms are strictly regulated.)

[teamnelson]

Questor, thanks for the tongue in cheek. This is a time for gallows humor.

I was asked to speak recently to an audience of people who are genuinely concerned about how to take care of, to minister to, our combat veterans and their families. There's a lot of practical things that can be done, of course, but in my mind it all boils down to this. Give us a war worth fighting, and the means to win, or let us be husbands and fathers.

I can probably shoehorn every single war related counseling I've done in the last 3 years into that last sentence.

[ncsurveyor]

Give us a war worth fighting, and the means to win, or let us be husbands and fathers.

That type of idealism is out of style.

Show me a leader that's willing to fight, and I'll show you a leader worth fighting for.

[Questor]

TeamNelson:

I'm curious. Since you do counseling maybe you can clear something up for me. My observation has been that most soldiers that I've encountered really did not know why they fought in their war. When I ask the typical Viet Nam vet I meet why they were there and what the national objective was they simply don't know. Some became fascinated with Viet Nam and eventually learned the issues, but while they were there they did not know, even well educated ones. Have you found that to be true?

[slim rem 7]

in my opinion the battles we have been involved in were mostly worthwhile.. but to tell a general win an move the enemy back behind a certain line ,,was where we started betraying our fighting men..
 you fight a fight until one or the other is all in,an had it.. if id been scrappin somebody an he said wait a minute i need to go over here an rest a bit ,,thats when ida poured on the coal.. its the only way to fight .. win it or lose .. don t wait until you finally lose it one time..
we still owe those boys that fought in nam an appology in my opinion..slim.. ps i couldn t get the posted news article ..im just commenting on a following post..slim

[teamnelson]

Show me a leader that's willing to fight, and I'll show you a leader worth fighting for. That's cute, I think I saw that on a tattoo. The cult of personality works in a biker gang, or Conan novels, but modern warfare requires hundreds of those leaders working together for a common cause. We don't fight for people, we fight for ideas bigger than people.

Questor, today's warriors are far more informed about the politics and public opinion surrounding our war than any of our warriors in history. Most of their parents and grandparents were affected by Vietnam, directly or otherwise, and they appear to be most diligent in making sure this generation knows more than they did. But the cacaphony of voices has only served to create confusion in the minds of our warriors as to whether what they are doing is RIGHT or WRONG ... GOOD or EVIL. Unlike Vietnam, we are an all volunteer force - no one is in unless they want to be. Most have joined since 9/11, when there was a collective sense of righteous outrage. These young folks want to do the RIGHT thing; they thought volunteering to serve was a RIGHT thing, but the dodgers tell them they're stupid. They thought protecting our country was a RIGHT thing, while their peers are rewarded for being 20 yo children. They thought OIF and OEF were RIGHT things, but objectives are fuzzy when you get there, and there's no collective understanding of why they fight. And internet access means they can be electronically bombarded daily with conflicting "informed and reasonable" voices that question their "RIGHT"ness, while they sit in their FOB getting ready to go on patrol.

The type of conviction that is common in historically victorious units has not been strengthened by access to more information. When everything is true, nothing is true, so who does our young warrior go to for the definitive answer as to why they are fighting?

[slim rem 7]

im old school as to military whether drafted or not.. thats one place where you carry out orders an get your job done.. the lives of your fellow soldiers depend on you doing your job.. battlefield is no place fore debating.. sargent says do it ..get it done yesterday slim

[ncsurveyor]

Show me a leader that's willing to fight, and I'll show you a leader worth fighting for. That's cute, I think I saw that on a tattoo. The cult of personality works in a biker gang, or Conan novels, but modern warfare requires hundreds of those leaders working together for a common cause. We don't fight for people, we fight for ideas bigger than people.

The intent of my statement was to establish that the cause of war must be of such righteousness, that unless the leaders of said fight are willing to demonstrate the will to fight it, and to have some personal ownership in the responsibility of that fight, it will be hard to pass this down to those that are actually expected to fight and die.  There is no way for them to discern that the "bigger idea" is a just purpose, unless their leaders actually can demonstrate that it is by becoming proactive.

Leader is also a term of plurality, in as much as our soldier's are supposed to be responsible to a chain of command, a commander, a Congress and a people.  Unless that chain is willing, it is hard for those that fight to feel that the fight was worth fighting.

You saw a lot more shallowness in my statement than I did.

Sorry.

[powderman]

Another convert to islam??? POWDERMAN. 

[teamnelson]

Show me a leader that's willing to fight, and I'll show you a leader worth fighting for. That's cute, I think I saw that on a tattoo. The cult of personality works in a biker gang, or Conan novels, but modern warfare requires hundreds of those leaders working together for a common cause. We don't fight for people, we fight for ideas bigger than people.

The intent of my statement was to establish that the cause of war must be of such righteousness, that unless the leaders of said fight are willing to demonstrate the will to fight it, and to have some personal ownership in the responsibility of that fight, it will be hard to pass this down to those that are actually expected to fight and die.  There is no way for them to discern that the "bigger idea" is a just purpose, unless their leaders actually can demonstrate that it is by becoming proactive.

Leader is also a term of plurality, in as much as our soldier's are supposed to be responsible to a chain of command, a commander, a Congress and a people.  Unless that chain is willing, it is hard for those that fight to feel that the fight was worth fighting.

You saw a lot more shallowness in my statement than I did.

Sorry.

ncsurveyor, sorry I missed that. Excellent point. I served with some frustrated leaders who truly wanted to be the leader they were capable of, but didn't have that consistent willing chain above them, or something they could articulate as a righteous cause.

[bilmac]

I saw an incident like this in Viet Nam. Our unit was in a rear area for R&R and one of our Mountainyard scouts got drunk and started swinging his M16 around as if to fire. A bunch of guys quickly surrounded him and talked him out of his rifle, not one blow was struck, but the incident scared the pee out of me and frightens me more the more I think about it.

The O Riely show had an ex General guest on who said that given the huge number of armed troops there, all under extreme stress it is a testement to their good behavior that these incidents are so rare.

[ncsurveyor]

ncsurveyor, sorry I missed that. Excellent point. I served with some frustrated leaders who truly wanted to be the leader they were capable of, but didn't have that consistent willing chain above them, or something they could articulate as a righteous cause.

No problem.

It tears me up to know that fine young people have volunteered to fight and die and are not guaranteed that such sacrifice will warrant a commensurate amount of responsibility from those that they serve.  Nor to have their cause outlined so completely to see its just nature.

I would like to think that people who would exploit willing volunteers of the defenders of freedom may find an extra special place in hell, once accountability is metered out.  But I know deep down that any place in hell would be sufficient.

President Obama said in a statement that he was "shocked and deeply saddened" by the report,

Given the abysmal way that people have handled the issue of domestic stress, I can't say that I am shocked that the internal conflict in some of our soldiers manifested itself in homicide, especially given the number of self-inflicted deaths.  

I don't think our leadership understands what it takes, at home or abroad.  One big "F" as far as taking care of the military.

an ex General guest on who said that given the huge number of armed troops there, all under extreme stress it is a testement to their good behavior that these incidents are so rare

Still the best military in the world!

[beerbelly]

       Sure are a lot of left wing liberals on here lately. TeamNelson if there is a big spook in the sky that is suppose to be in charge of everything he sure is making a mess of it. Maybe he is just incompetent.
                                      Beerbelly

[ncsurveyor]

       Sure are a lot of left wing liberals on here lately.

Who?

[WolfTrap]

       Sure are a lot of left wing liberals on here lately.

Who?

Yeah....who?

[teamnelson]

beerbelly,

It's been a long time since I looked to my right and saw anyone there, at least when it comes to moral issues, societal policy, and liberty. The right has always been defined by its faith in a big spook in the sky, that created us, gave us natural law, a moral compass, a sense of right and wrong. The godless always sat on the left - without God there's no ultimate accountability and people have no worth other than the sum total of their minerals when rendered, which depending on your dental plan, still won't add up to much.

And ever since the first human rebelled against the big spooks plan, we bear responsibility for the way things are. Things were all but idiot proof in the garden, but He gave us the capacity for idiocy. He's still there, working through those who try to do things His way, which are not necessarily the same as those who claim to be doing things His way.

The republican party has been listing to port for years now; someone told me they're infected by neo-cons ... dont' know what that is, but I hope a doctor can clear it up. I've been busy fighting to defend the truths we hold self-evident, that all men are endowed by their creator with the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and the means to defend them.