Author Topic: Could some of our LEO's Chime in on this...  (Read 825 times)

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Offline Matt

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Could some of our LEO's Chime in on this...
« on: May 11, 2009, 10:30:58 AM »
There has been an increase in State Trooper Roadblocks in the State of Alabama and it seems to be getting worse. There is one right down the road from my house almost every week. I personaly see this as harasment as there is no reall good reason for most of these roadblocks. The ones they do on the weekends late at night I can tolerate if it gets a few drunks off the road but I still dont like it.

So my question is... is this article correct or not;
Matt
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Encountering A Roadblock
(What to expect and how to handle the situation)
 

Roadblocks are usually established in locations that prevent easy avoidance, offer ample 


parking for interrogating suspected law violators and issuing tickets, and usually in places and during times that will not cause serious traffic tie ups, although there have certainly been exceptions. The stated purposes of roadblocks are usually legalized excuses to stop and scrutinize motorists for which there would otherwise be no reason to do so. These excuses include "sobriety checks," license and registration verification, possession of insurance, proof of citizenship, and seatbelt usage. The desired effect is to establish a sense of fear and intimidation among the population. The pity is that it works, as far as the "desired effect" is concerned.

Even if the courts disallow roadblocks for certain purposes, e.g. the recent cases prohibiting roadblocks from being used to identify drug users or couriers, the enforcement agencies just claim another purpose for the roadblocks and it's business as usual. The courts have gone out of their way to allow the police great latitude in what they can do, once they have you stopped and under their control.

The point of the above discussion is to suggest that you engage the roadblock process from the standpoint that the current courts find them legal and a legitimate law enforcement tactic. Therefore, there is little to gain by launching into a tirade over the constitutionality of roadblocks, at least while you are stopped at one. However, this is not to say that all your rights are null and void once you enter a roadblock.

First, the police do not have the authority to search you or your vehicle, not without probable cause that you have, or are committing a crime. They may ask your permission for a search---which means they do not have legal grounds to force a search. Never permit a voluntary search of your person or your vehicle. The police may try to cajole you into permitting a search. The old ruse, "if you don't have anything to hide, why object to a search?" should be ignored, or met with a response that you value your right to privacy and do not consent to a search of your vehicle.

If, under any set of circumstances, the police force a search of your vehicle, assume the worse case scenario. If they can't find anything illegal in your vehicle, they will place something in your vehicle that will justify their search. This is a sad commentary on the state of affairs, but these events should be expected in a schizophrenic society that employs police state tactics to intimidate common citizens.

Often, an involuntary search is preceded by another form of search, the once-over by the urban myth known as the infallible drug sniffing dog. Old Bowser can be relied upon to find drugs anyplace the police want to find drugs. (Yes, the dogs can detect drugs, but they can be easily manipulated or tricked into "sensing" drugs where no drugs exist, at least prior to the roadblock stop.) Most people are so relieved to be allowed to leave after the harrowing experience of having their car ravaged that they never consider launching a civil suit against the police department.

If the police are persistent about searching your vehicle, you should be equally persistent in demanding that they specify what illegal item they are looking for and why they think you have it in your vehicle. If they cannot come up with plausible answers to these questions, they do not have legal grounds to even consider searching your car.

The courts allow the police to detain drivers for further interrogation, but not for indefinite lengths of time. The courts seem to tolerate 20 minutes of harassment and intimidation and consider that tolerable for a suspected criminal. However, unless you ask to leave, the courts have said the police are under no obligation to tell you can leave. You have to ask, "Am I free to go?" If the police do not have defensible grounds to further detain you, they have to let you leave.

There is no greater symbol of a society having lost its bearings than the "sobriety roadblock." It is universally admitted that roadblocks apprehend very few drunk drivers, far fewer than the same allocation of resources could apprehend during regular patrols. Again, the purposes are intimidation, using the stops as a pretence to look for other criminal activity, and to garner public relations points as a "get tough on drunk drivers" agency.

DWI roadblocks are usually set up at night and can be quite unnerving with the bright lights, orchestrated show of force, and flashlights thrust in drivers' faces. All the previous comments about searches are applicable to DWI roadblocks. Also, you should not allow any penetration of your vehicle's interior space, that includes sticking a flashlight (often contains an alcohol sensor) through your window. You can be required to show the usual documentation, such as your driver's license, but you do not have to open your window any further than the space to hand it out. You do not have to answer questions about where you have been or where you are going, whether or not you have been drinking or what items are contained in your car.

If you are ordered out of your car, lock the door behind you. You do not have to perform any feats of balance, answer quiz questions, or recite the alphabet. In fact we recommend that you respectfully decline to do any of these things. A so-called field sobriety test is conducted for one reason only---to develop probable cause to arrest you for drunk driving. You can not pass a field sobriety test, no matter how sober or gifted you are. If the police believe they have probable cause to charge you with drunk driving, they can coerce you to take some form of breath or chemical test to determine your blood alcohol content. You can refuse, but the penalties for refusal are often as severe as a DWI conviction.

When you are first approached at a DWI roadblock, open your window slightly and wait for the officer to make his statement or ask his questions. If he simply offers the canned explanation for the stop and asks to see your license, have it ready to hand to him. If he asks any further questions, you should politely decline to enter into a discussion. Something like; "officer, I really don't approve of roadblocks and I don't care to discuss my affairs" should suffice. If the officer persists, ask for the return of your license and ask if you may leave.

It's important not to answer any questions, no matter how harmless. Your willingness to answer some questions, but not others, will raise suspicion. Worse yet is to give incriminating answers to seemingly routine questions. If you set the stage in a manner that it is clear you are not going to answer questions, period, there can be no defensible reason for detaining you, based on what you said. Just answer every question with "I don't wish to discuss my affairs, may I leave now?" By law, you are not obligated to answer these kinds of questions and you cannot be detained because you refuse to chit-chat with the officers at a roadblock.

If you have the time, the courage, and the confidence to verbally express your displeasure with being stopped at a roadblock, please do so. It would be a nice change of pace!
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline Questor

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Re: Could some of our LEO's Chime in on this...
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2009, 10:46:52 AM »
I'm surprised that these have not yet been forbidden, as they have been in other states. I remember being involved in one of those on a Friday night one time. Traffic was backed up for about half a mile and there were no alternate routes. I spent about an hour there just waiting for everybody to be checked through.

Certainly bad from the policeman's perspective, because they've got enough public relations problems as it is.

Sadly according to this, only 11 states have banned this nuisance practice.
http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/DrivingIssues/1103163004.html
Safety first

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Could some of our LEO's Chime in on this...
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2009, 02:47:58 PM »
This is not to try and hi-jack this thread.
Last week when on one of my usual jaunts too S. Louisiana I stopped at a Shell staion and convenience store.
As I walked out of the store there was a young police officer in civies and a Houma Police Officer shirt. Another young man was walking into the store. he had a bandana on his head as he was riding a motorcycle.
The officer said "take that bandana off your head."
Young man "are you talking too me officer?" as he looked around.
"Yea! I'm talking too you, take that bandana off your head!"
"Why?"
"Bcause I said so", said the officer.
"I don't have to do that", said the young man.
"Son, just do what I tell you."
"Why?"
"We don't allow people to go into stores with bandanas. Now, do it!"
The young man cursed him and took the bandana off and stuffed it in his back pocket.
Now louisiana cops have a very bad reputation.
I would probably not have won but I would have told him to arrest me or leave me alone.
I like cops and respect them---but that certainly didn't earn my respect.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Questor

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Re: Could some of our LEO's Chime in on this...
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2009, 02:55:53 PM »
WilliamLayton:

I traveled by motorcycle for three years, full time, when I was in my late teens and early 20s. I always had a clean-cut look. The story you relate is absolutely typical. I have been harassed by cops so many times I quit counting.  After a while, one draws solid conclusions.
Safety first

Offline kevthebassman

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Re: Could some of our LEO's Chime in on this...
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2009, 03:08:16 PM »
Sobriety checkpoints are a joke.  For years when I worked 2nd shift and came home around midnight, it was a weekly thing to be stopped and harassed in a checkpoint by my home.  The first time, it was cute.  After the 4th, 5th, and 6th times, I read up on my rights and started to decline their offers to come out and do acrobatics.  That upset them, and I got the bad-cop treatment.

It pissed me (and a whole lot of other people) off so bad, I volunteered for the campaign of a guy challenging the sheriff in the election.  We beat him, and now I can drive home in peace.

Offline slim rem 7

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Re: Could some of our LEO's Chime in on this...
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2009, 03:22:50 PM »
 be careful.. many good serving officers out thier .. then once in a while a controll freak.. my son was planning on going into the field but the controll ones discouraged him.. he said dad they worse than the people they here to protect us against..a sad fact. slim
 ps hes now a millionair in the insurance field.. so mabe not so bad..
he employs several members of the family .. glad he keeps them working..

Offline Questor

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Re: Could some of our LEO's Chime in on this...
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2009, 03:25:01 PM »
Slim Rem 7:

Most of us see the bad ones only. They SEEM like the majority, and in some places they are the majority.
Safety first

Offline Matt

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Re: Could some of our LEO's Chime in on this...
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2009, 04:08:51 PM »
Well around here we have about all the different kinds you can have. The state guys used to not mess with you unless you did something stupid or was speeding more than about 20mph. The county sheriffs used to never right tickets at all not even in wrecks but now run speed traps and road blocks. The Weaver City Police have always been known to write tickets for as little as 3mph over and never let anyone off. Anniston has gotten much worse and now I see an average of 5 cars sitting on the side of the road running radar in my short 8 mile ride into the city. Jacksonville has gotten worse but is mostly made up of students at JSU so they have attitude often. The only city we have that is not a speed trap is Oxford which from what I have been told writes less than 200 tickets a month and almost never writes a ticket to anyone with a Calhoun county tag. They are also one of our largest cities… go figure…

Having been a Fire Fighter / First Responder for several years I have respect for the police but I seem to lose a little more every time I see them stepping on our rights willingly.

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline Glanceblamm

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Re: Could some of our LEO's Chime in on this...
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2009, 02:55:35 AM »
They got me on a road block here in 2004...not zactley a road block but a trap designed to catch people without seatbelts!

This all in a town of under 900 populace and in a 25mph speed zone. Yeah, the State Police were working the large towns but also linking up the small towns in between.

I gave them my best line (officer, can you have mercy on the inadvertent perpatrator?) this almost worked but the officer said that Rod Blago told them zero tolerance on this violation at that time.

I was furious about this since I have a Motorcycle sitting in the garage but know what? I wore my seatbelt everyday since, the tickets are just too expensive. They got a bunch of people in the cities while pulling into the shopping centers and later, the State happily reported that a large percentage of the people were now wearing their seatbelts (info probably gleaned from the cams above those stoplights)

I am still bent because the resources used could have been applied to the people who tailgate and do improper lane changes not to mention cutting you off or trying to pass you on the right hand side. Seems like this still happens on a daily basis and is the root cause for the accidents.

Offline rak55

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Re: Could some of our LEO's Chime in on this...
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2009, 04:00:09 AM »
just like everything there is good and bad, I know both kinds myself and have dealt with many over all my years and I know they are just doing a job most of the time and I respect that, all other times need to be questioned and addressed. just my opinion whether you like it or not.

Offline magooch

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Re: Could some of our LEO's Chime in on this...
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2009, 04:55:12 AM »
There are all kinds of cops, but it only takes one a-hole to give the public a bad impression of the force. 

Not long ago, I got a ticket for inappropriate parking in a park--$157.  The parking rules for the park do not specify that I couldn't park the way I did and in fact it is done quite often.  People who have motor homes often park crosswise because their rig is too long for the parking spaces.  Usually this is done in a remote part of the parking lot so as not to inconvenience others.

Instead of paying the ticket, I took it to court--since I'm retired and don't have to miss work.  The judge was sympathetic and reduced it to $10, which I am very greatful for, but I'm still pissed at the cop who couldn't find something more important to do.  I could understand if he had left a note that requested that I not park that way, but that would have required that he be reasonable.  He was a deputy sheriff and if I were the sheriff and one of my deputies wrote a ticket like that, he'd be looking for a new job.
Swingem

Offline gstewart44

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Re: Could some of our LEO's Chime in on this...
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2009, 05:20:32 AM »
I have several friends that are LEO's and I have had some speeding tickets in my life.  I have been pulled over by FHP and all three times the officers were polite and very cordial.   One asked me if I knew any good jokes and I told him one that made him laugh real hard.   He said he was going to knock the ticket down from 11 over to 6 over and it was going to save me about $100....I thanked him and said I could tell him about 6 more good jokes if he wanted to forget about the whole thing... ;D....he laughed again and said he had to have something to show for this stop...then reminded me again what the posted speed was.  

I have had positive or neutral experiences mostly,  but there were a couple of hardcore control freaks that gave me a hard time.   The first was with two city police that stopped my car two miles outside of city limits because the car was blue.    Evidently there was a blue car full of punks that had earlier done some vandalism at a construction site and when challenged by the security guard they hit him in the head with a concrete block.  

I had two of my friends with me and I was the Designated Driver for the evening.   the first cop told me to come to the front of the car and then started hurling every curse word in the book saying he knew we were the punks that assaulted the security guard and we were going to jail for a long time.  

I told the officer that we were coming back from a party and I was the DD.   he kept saying over and over that I was lying and was going to jail.   I told the officer that he did not have to use profane language when he was talking to me.   He replied "shut up punk or I will put you in handcuffs for interfering."  

At this point I was fed up with being yelled at, verbally bullied with profanity and accused of a crime I had nothing to do with.   I looked at the officers badge and repeated his name and id # outloud twice and then told him that he made a stop outside of his jurisdiction which was definately not legal at that time.   I told him that if he had no evidence linking me to his accusations then I wanted to see it now.  I then asked him if I was free to go.   It had been 25 minutes after the stop.  

He hurled more profanity at me and said I had to stay right here until they brought the security guard in to ID me.   I told him to bring the guard now -  I wanted him to see me.   (I  was about 5'4"/120 pounds at the time...no physical threat).    The cop again started cursing me louder.  

At this point the second cop who had been talking to my two inebriated friends came up and told officer #1 he needed to lay off the bad language.   Cop #2  had a call put into the residence of the party and confirmed we had just left 30 minutes earlier.   Then a call came on their radios that another unit had caught the punks and had been ID'd by the guard.  

All of a sudden it was over.  Cop # 2 said we were free to go.  As I was getting into my car Cop#1 said to me " I had better not see you around here again".   I replied I was not in the city limits and I have a legal right to drive whereever I choose within the limit of the law.  

I read this moron was dismissed from the force the next year for similar harrassments.  
I'm just tryin' to keep everything in balance, Woodrow. You do more work than you got to, so it's my obligation to do less. (Gus McCrae)

Offline magooch

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Re: Could some of our LEO's Chime in on this...
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2009, 05:30:44 AM »
The age old "good cop, bad cop" to the extreme.  The bad one probably went on to be a perp.
Swingem

Offline gypsyman

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Re: Could some of our LEO's Chime in on this...
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2009, 06:51:16 AM »
Not a LEO, but I can tell you why your seeing this. One word-money!! These city's,county's,state's are losing revenue. Business tax's down, property tax's down. They have to pull in money somehow. I've seen more state troopers on the highway giving out tickets in the last 3 month's, than in the last year. Police agency's are turning into revenue agents. If you get fined say $75 for not having your seatbelt buckled, that's close to 3 hours pay for the cop. $100 to $150 plus court costs for a speeding ticket. Few of those and the officers pay for the week is covered. Will not deter crime, but that's not what their after. Crime costs them money. Ever wonder how many tens of millions the insurance companies have pulled in with with the higher DUI premiums they charge. It's turned into a money game. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline WylieKy

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Re: Could some of our LEO's Chime in on this...
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2009, 07:26:41 AM »
I have two comments...

1. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.  If you were speeding, you deserve the ticket (I've had a few.)  If a cop has an unusually good sense of humor or is an excpetionally good guy...great!  If not, don't blame the cop for doing his job.

2. Bad cops.  The problem with bad cops is "good cops".  I had an uncle (god rest his soul) who was one of the best, most honorable people I have ever known.  He was in LEO for 3 years and went in planning a career.  The problem was that in the Warren Co. Sherrifs Dept. there were 3-4 bad cops and the "good" cops covered for them.  They wouldn't "go after their own."  My uncle wouldn't have any of that and reported some of the things he was seeing and was informed that he may want to look elsewhere for a job.  He told them he was happy where he was, but was constantly harassed by the bad cops and even shunned by the "good" cops.  Eventually he quit and got a good job with the USPS, but it hurt.

It is like gstewart44's story.  The "good cop" in the situation should have stepped in and reported the "bad cop." Instead the "bad cop" hung around for another year and harassed who know's how many people.


Oh, yeah.  Road blocks are unconstitutional IMHO and should be outlawed.
This that I do, I do by my own free will.

Offline JPShelton

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Re: Could some of our LEO's Chime in on this...
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2009, 02:57:12 AM »
There has been an increase in State Trooper Roadblocks in the State of Alabama and it seems to be getting worse. There is one right down the road from my house almost every week. I personaly see this as harasment as there is no reall good reason for most of these roadblocks. The ones they do on the weekends late at night I can tolerate if it gets a few drunks off the road but I still dont like it.

So my question is... is this article correct or not;
Matt

Not.

As a former LEO in metropolitain Los Angeles County, California, there is a whole bunch of mis-information in the material posted that I scarcely know where to begin.  It would take too much bandwidth to refute it all .
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