168gr A-Max in .308 for Whitetails?

[jasonprox700]

I've been shooting the 168 gr A-Max bullets out of my .308 with fantastic accuracy.  What I was wondering is, would you use this bullet for deer?  The bullets are leaving the muzzle at around 2500 fps.  I don't think that these will open up too quickly, especially at those velocities.  I would like some feed back on those that have shot hooved animals with these.

Also, how about the Amax's brother, the 168gr Hornady BTHP?  These also shoot great.

[nomosendero]

I know of several who do this with no problem. The late Ian McMurchy harvested a bunch of Whitetails near & far with this bullet. My M700VS shots the A-Max great & I will carry it to some of my stands next fall, Lord willing. The load is at 2,700. Yes, your reduced velocity will insure further that the bullet will not go crazy, in fact I use the 150BT in my Super 14 30-30AI @ 2,400 & get passthroughs every time.

Also, Hornady themselves claim it is a Deer bullet, they should know.

[41 mag]

While not having used the exact one you mention, I have been using the 140gr in .264 since they came on the market. I worked up the load for my daughters 6.5x55 and it has taken deer and hogs through the years with no worries.

When they first came out I was told by the tech's at Hornady that they did not recommend them being used as they had no data to show how they would perform on game and feared over expansion. However at the lower velocities at which I would be using them that they figured it might just work.

I have had complete end to end pass throughs on 200# feral hogs at 350yds with the 140's, and quarter sized exits at 50yds on whitetail deer.

Give it a try, worst case at least you will know for yourself how they work. Here are a couple my daughter got over the years,

[Varmint Hunter]

I shoot the 162 A-Max from my 7STW @ about 3,200 ft/sec. They kill deer like lightening. Broadside shots leave silver dollar size exit wounds and deer that only travel 20-30yds. Shots to the shoulder drop them like rocks from almost any distance.

Personally, I doubt that there are many bullets that perform on whitetails as well as the A-Max. Currently working up loads with the 208 A-Max for my 300RUM. It is being used as a longrange deer rifle. Bang-Flop

[nomosendero]

41, your daughter has done you proud.

[41 mag]

41, your daughter has done you proud.

Yep your absolutely right on that one. The top pic was two weeks before she delivered my first of three grandsons. I was hunting with a friend around an hour or so away, and told her she shouldn't go out until I was there to help her. Well you see how well she listens. She, her mom, and grandmother all went down and loaded it up and hauled it to the processor.

Now I have the oldest grandson with a few hogs and a yote under his belt at 7 and the middle one at 3 wanting to get him one already to show up big brother. LOL

[saltydog]

The A-max line of bullets are made for match use and "not" recommended for use on deer or other game. They are extremely accurate and I use them in several calibers. The Hornady manual and catalog is pretty clear on this issue of nonhunting use. This doesn't mean they won't kill an animal on occasion just that they are not made to expand and perform over a wide range of situations - Hornady makes other accurate hunting bullets such as the SST's, Interbonds and Interlocks for hunting use. I view their use similar to using FMJ's and believe you raise ethical issues related to hunting when you knowingly use bullets not designed to produce humane kills.           

[nomosendero]

The A-max line of bullets are made for match use and "not" recommended for use on deer or other game. They are extremely accurate and I use them in several calibers. The Hornady manual and catalog is pretty clear on this issue of nonhunting use. This doesn't mean they won't kill an animal on occasion just that they are not made to expand and perform over a wide range of situations - Hornady makes other accurate hunting bullets such as the SST's, Interbonds and Interlocks for hunting use. I view their use similar to using FMJ's and believe you raise ethical issues related to hunting when you knowingly use bullets not designed to produce humane kills.           

Actually, the Hornady information DOES recommend the A-Max for Deer sized game. The use of this bullet would not be similar to a FMJ bullet in any conceivable way. Ethical issues ! 

The following quote is from the Hornady Manual #5  in the bullet information:     "The base configuration is called a boat tail. A-MAX bullets are generally for match shooting, with jackets drawn to less than .0005" concentricity and given, as here , Hornady's Ultra-Low Drag Tip. This bullet is ALSO EXCELLANT for hunting thin skinned game." 

Yea, looks like HORNADY has motivated me to use this bullet this fall.

[jasonprox700]

Thanks guys.  It looks like I'll be using the A-Max's!!!  If I actually get a deer, I'll post my findings.  (Unfortunately, the Wisc DNR has killed off most of the deer herd and they claim that that we are still above their goal of 1.5 deer per 40 acres!  So hopefully, I see a deer!)

[Graybeard]

The A-Max bullet is made with one goal in mind and that is accuracy. It is not designed for controlled expansion at any velocity and in fact whether it expands at all or just plain blows up isn't a consideration in its design criteria.

Why do folks insist on using bullets for things they were not designed to do and then most times bitch and complaint about them on sites like this when they do not live up to their unrealistic expecations to boot? No I'm not saying you have or would but far too many do this.

Surely with all the excellent hunting bullets out there you can find one suitable for your hunting needs. Leave target bullets for target shooting and use hunting bullets for hunting.

[nomosendero]

The A-Max bullet is made with one goal in mind and that is accuracy. It is not designed for controlled expansion at any velocity and in fact whether it expands at all or just plain blows up isn't a consideration in its design criteria.

Why do folks insist on using bullets for things they were not designed to do and then most times bitch and complaint about them on sites like this when they do not live up to their unrealistic expecations to boot? No I'm not saying you have or would but far too many do this.

Surely with all the excellent hunting bullets out there you can find one suitable for your hunting needs. Leave target bullets for target shooting and use hunting bullets for hunting.

Well Bill, let Hornady know because they say it is an EXCELLANT deer bullet! I hear this same stuff about the BT, as far as bullet construction is concerned, which isn't true if the right cal, wt., & velocity is factored by an experienced hunter.

 And BTW, this EXACTLY parallels the Berger VLD story. The bullet was designed for Match shooting, but later the
Berger technicians found out it was also a great hunting bullet. So, now the BergerVLD Hunting/Match is recommended as a hunting bullet by Berger.

[nomosendero]

Thanks guys.  It looks like I'll be using the A-Max's!!!  If I actually get a deer, I'll post my findings.  (Unfortunately, the Wisc DNR has killed off most of the deer herd and they claim that that we are still above their goal of 1.5 deer per 40 acres!  So hopefully, I see a deer!)

Good luck & I look forward to your results.

[Arier Blut]

 nomosendero, I would like to see documentation where the A-max is recommended by hornady for hunting big game.

Your statement on Berger is totally false. Walt was a match shooter that made a bullet for personal use, then friends, then the public. We did use his match bullets for hunting varmints and coyote, but any knowledgeable hunter did not use them for big game. Thin jackets and a pure lead core never translate to adequate penetration.

Walt designed a hunting bullet for big game when he was bombarded for years with requests by hunters(just as his varmint bullet line). He never recommended his match bullets as suitable for hunting. Even to those of us who used them for varmints before he had a varmint bullet line. To spread misinformation is slander and doing the members of this board a great disservice. The Berger hunting bullets were 5 years in the making and several thousand were tested on game before they were offered for sale. To imply they took their match bullet and touted it as a big game round is totally false.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/Cartridges/30%20Cal/308%20Win/308%20Win.html
http://www.bergerbullets.com/Cartridges/30%20Cal/308%20Win/308%20Win%20-%20Hunting.html
http://www.bergerbullets.com/Information/Tech%20Info.html

I am sorry to call you out. It is possible that hornady has changed their stance on the a-max. However you are very misinformed on Berger.

[nomosendero]

 nomosendero, I would like to see documentation where the A-max is recommended by hornady for hunting big game.

Your statement on Berger is totally false. Walt was a match shooter that made a bullet for personal use, then friends, then the public. We did use his match bullets for hunting varmints and coyote, but any knowledgeable hunter did not use them for big game. Thin jackets and a pure lead core never translate to adequate penetration.

Walt designed a hunting bullet for big game when he was bombarded for years with requests by hunters(just as his varmint bullet line). He never recommended his match bullets as suitable for hunting. Even to those of us who used them for varmints before he had a varmint bullet line. To spread misinformation is slander and doing the members of this board a great disservice. The Berger hunting bullets were 5 years in the making and several thousand were tested on game before they were offered for sale. To imply they took their match bullet and touted it as a big game round is totally false.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/Cartridges/30%20Cal/308%20Win/308%20Win.html
http://www.bergerbullets.com/Cartridges/30%20Cal/308%20Win/308%20Win%20-%20Hunting.html
http://www.bergerbullets.com/Information/Tech%20Info.html

I am sorry to call you out. It is possible that hornady has changed their stance on the a-max. However you are very misinformed on Berger.

Go to the bullet section in the Hornady Manual & read it for yourself.  If you had read my post, I have a direct quote from Hor. Manual#5.

Before I start on the Berger part, everyone please read the original post & the cartridge, bullet weight & velocity of the
application in question, my answer was in regards to that application. As far as the slander comment, well either you are misinformed or telling a bald faced lie. The hunting bullet they have according to Berger ISthe
VLD. Walt Berger himself used it in New Zealand himself to shoot animals actually a little bigger than Whitetails.

 And my Berger info is not false at all. It is only for their VLD line. I am not in reference to how they were made in the past, but how they are made now. Perhaps I should supply links on actual VLD experiences, in fact I will, but for now
you might want to look at what BERGER BULLETS has to say on the matter. It would be VERY stupid for a bullet company who is making all of the bullets they can to say they have a hunting bullet when they don't. So, lets take a look at what Berger has to say, go to  www.bergerbullets.com    go to products, then hunting bullets.

 Keep in mind the subject here, 168 A-Max for 308, in other words to those that understand the obvious, don't use for Bears & at hyper velocity, opposite of the subject.

[Arier Blut]

Again your statement is false, there is a  vld match and a vld hunting match. They are different in jacket thickness and lead alloy composition.  I worked for Berger I know the story. The best of the west touted the Berger match hunting vld, not the original match vld. The Berger technicians did not find out that the Berger match vld was a good hunting bullet and it has never been recommended by the company. The hunting bullet was designed and tested for hunting, not just adapted for the use. You brought up Berger I didn't.

As for the A-max, contact Hornady and ask if they recommend it's use for deer. The quote you referenced was brought up at the 2008 SWAT Conference.The Hornady representative, Jeff Whisenant stated the A-max was only good for coyote and smaller size animals as it shares many attributes of  the v-max line. He further stated the sst had a jacket that was suitable for hunting and leo use.  When pressed by an leo sniper from DC SWAT as to why it stated thin skinned game, Jeff advised thin skin meant varmint hunting, that thin skinned big game was not intended for the use of the A-max.

Sir I only wished to point out you were mistaken and the misinformation may be a detriment to a fellow hunter. I have no personal qualms with you and wish you the best. You can use what you wish and I will do the same. To misrepresent what the companies say to back up your opinion is not the correct thing to do. If you wish to use a varmint style bullet on big game that is your business, to show the manufacturer's support of improper bullet selection is different.

I do not wish to argue further so wish you the best and just hope we can agree to disagree. I am here to learn, not to make any enemies. With that I hope that if we met in person, I hope we could sit down have a brew and  have a good time swapping stories.

[nomosendero]

Again your statement is false, there is a  vld match and a vld hunting match. They are different in jacket thickness and lead alloy composition.  I worked for Berger I know the story. The best of the west touted the Berger match hunting vld, not the original match vld. The Berger technicians did not find out that the Berger match vld was a good hunting bullet and it has never been recommended by the company. The hunting bullet was designed and tested for hunting, not just adapted for the use. You brought up Berger I didn't.

As for the A-max, contact Hornady and ask if they recommend it's use for deer. The quote you referenced was brought up at the 2008 SWAT Conference.The Hornady representative, Jeff Whisenant stated the A-max was only good for coyote and smaller size animals as it shares many attributes of  the v-max line. He further stated the sst had a jacket that was suitable for hunting and leo use.  When pressed by an leo sniper from DC SWAT as to why it stated thin skinned game, Jeff advised thin skin meant varmint hunting, that thin skinned big game was not intended for the use of the A-max.

Sir I only wished to point out you were mistaken and the misinformation may be a detriment to a fellow hunter. I have no personal qualms with you and wish you the best. You can use what you wish and I will do the same. To misrepresent what the companies say to back up your opinion is not the correct thing to do. If you wish to use a varmint style bullet on big game that is your business, to show the manufacturer's support of improper bullet selection is different.

I do not wish to argue further so wish you the best and just hope we can agree to disagree. I am here to learn, not to make any enemies. With that I hope that if we met in person, I hope we could sit down have a brew and  have a good time swapping stories.

Again, huh, Like I said  in my last post about the Berger site, go to products, then GO TO HUNTING BULLETS

The Match Hunting bullet was the one of course I was refering to. In other words it is a Hunting/Match bullet. I trully don't know why one would buy their pure Match bullet for hunting, but in looking at my initial comment they might run to the store & buy the pure match. The web site I thought at least makes the distinction with a group for match only & for Hunting/Match, I don't understand how that would be confusing to anyone viewing their site. However, in thinking about it,
I suppose someone could go into a store somewhere & just pick up a box of 168VLD & not know that distincton, I see what you mean there. It would be better for me to not make that assumption. But I never meant that bullet & can't think of a reason to consider it. So, nothing slanderous here or purposely misleading, sorry I did not say Hunting/match, I never even look at their pure match section. It may have been a little better if you had said, hey Nomo, I think you mean the Hunting/Match & not the pure Match instead of saying I am being irresponsible & it for sure would have been better if I had taken the time to view your concern instead of flying off the handle. Sorry about that. You accomplished something good, I will make sure people know which Berger I mean & I will spell it out each time so they understand. You are right for bringing it up.

Except for failing on my part to make the distinction of the Bergers & I should have, it looks like we only disagree on the Hornady bullet. But when used as the poster stated with such a modest velocity, I can't see the problem as Jeff stated, but some say the same of the Ballistic tip, maybe for them, not for me.

About the Hornady, I appreciate the opinion of the man from Hornady, but I also appreciate the stance of Hornady as a company in their printed material & the success of many I know who use it. I plan on using it this fall or the Berger 168VLD HUNTING/MATCH if I can make it shoot better & I have no doubt they will do very well.

Sir, I would have no problem with the brew or stories.

[mitchell]

i'll just put this out there , my veiws on what a hunting bullet should do are differant from most other but i've never lost a deer due to a bad bullet .

i have used the 168gr bullet in a 30-06 (can't remember the load) for deer and it worked quite well.

i have also used the 185gr berger VLD  in a 300 win mag with outstanding prefomance

i have also used the 175gr SMK out of a 30-06 and 308 and it killed deer just like the pro hunter.


i'm not stirin the pot here i've used them and they have worked for me i'm not telling anybody to go out and use a target bullet for deer . but just remember that deer are not that hard to kill . and texas heart shots are few and far between.

[FW Conch]

mitchell, just to be clear, where the Bergers that you used on whitetails the VLD Big Game Hunting Bullets?

[nomosendero]

mitchell, just to be clear, where the Bergers that you used on whitetails the VLD Big Game Hunting Bullets?

Why would they not be?

Yes, please everyone from this point on, if you use a Berger hunting bullet, don't make the mistake I did of not specificaly saying BERGER Match/Hunting VLD.

[mitchell]

yes i'm sorry berger Match/Hunting VLD, they really opened up well they left probibly about a 3 inches exit wound

[41 mag]

The A-Max bullet is made with one goal in mind and that is accuracy. It is not designed for controlled expansion at any velocity and in fact whether it expands at all or just plain blows up isn't a consideration in its design criteria.

Why do folks insist on using bullets for things they were not designed to do and then most times bitch and complaint about them on sites like this when they do not live up to their unrealistic expecations to boot? No I'm not saying you have or would but far too many do this.

Surely with all the excellent hunting bullets out there you can find one suitable for your hunting needs. Leave target bullets for target shooting and use hunting bullets for hunting.

During the initial process of finding a lod for this particular 6.5x55, I purchased the then very high priced factory ammo, which in our area was only available from Norma. I decided then and there that it would not happen from then on out, especially after the first box shot a 10+" pattern rather than a group of any sort.

I purchased and loaded bullets from Speer, Hornady, Sierra, and Nosler trying to get a load that shot within an inch at 100yds. As this was all coming about the A-Max hit the shelves and with the added length I hoped that I would be able to seat out ot the lands and possibly that might help some. At the same time I also got my hands on some of the 140gr Bergers from a friend simply to see if they would shoot. With the free bore of this rifle I can sit an A-Max on the top of the case and chamber it with out touching the lands. So this wasn't helping much where I had hoped it would. I contacted Hornady about it at the time, and their response was that they had not even considered it at the time, and since it was such a new product they had their doubts about how well it would work.

My thinking was that since the 140gr was so long for it's diameter, and due to the muzzle velocity of only 2550 - 2650fps, that hopefully it would hold together. I tested it first for accuracy which was outstanding getting consistent groups of 1" or less out to 200yds. The rifle was only intended to be used in the woods or for short range shots from a stand. I shot them into water jugs, and all sorts of other stuff well before putting them into live critters. Their performance in the other stuff convinced me of their ability to hold up on deer easily at the ranges and velocities I was intending.

Hogs are prevalent in our area and provide a great tasting test medium. If a particular load whether handgun or rifle, or a particular broadhead will take them out quickly and efficiently, generally it works very well on a whitetail. After over a dozen hogs at ranges from around 10ft out to over 300yds, I found that the A-Max do indeed work well.

This is not to say, as you put it, there aren't other bullets that will work, or are specifically designed to work on game, simply that the others did not shoot satisfactorily in this particular rifle. Nowhere close. Believe me I tried for two years off and on working up loads for this rifle changing everything along the way except the barreled action.

Now this same rifle, given a diet of PRVI SP ammo shoots one hole groups. It is cheaper than I can load, and works equally as well putting things on the ground. I do believe however that there are extremes in which even bullets designed for hunting become fragmenting grenades, but the opposite can also be the case, where they simply pencil on through with out any apparent expansion, due to velocity and or the thickness of the jacket. There are times however when the construction, and velocity can be matched for reasonable and proper expansion in a given bullet no matter what the original intended use was. This is simply one of those cases in my opinion.

The initial velocity of the OP was stated to be in the 2500fps range, the SD of this particular bullet, combined with the velocity should work out just fine for him. Now had he said he as going to shoot them in a 300 RUM at 3200fps, I would have told him to go with an Accubond, however this was not the case. As an avid loader, and shooter, I know for a fact that when a new bullet hits the market it will be used for everything anyone can think of. If it doesn't work then it doesn't work, but if it does, why not use it. Similar to when they started using pistol bullets with sabots in muzzle loaders. Use the right one and everything is fine, use the wrong one and get a blowup. You have to use one that will perform within the parameters of the load or your risking a failure. Keep it within that parameter and you get good performance. The key is testing things out before heading to the game field, this is where I feel folks drop the ball. If they put in some time setting up targets simulating game, I believe there would be way less of the failure reports. However some folks can simply get plum lazy about things and this isn't the fault of a particular type or brand of bullet.

Not looking to argue, simply pointing out my experiences with the A-Max.

[nomosendero]

41 mag, good stuff, thanks for posting!!!  "after over a dozen hogs at ranges from around 10 feet out to over 300 yards, I found that the A-Max do indeed work well" As you say, if they will work for Hogs, they will sure work on Deer.

And thanks also for mentioning they work due to the muzzle velocity being modest. As I stated before, you would not want to load these 168's in a magnum and shoot a Deer up close, some common sense is in order. I will hunt with these some this fall in my 308, but would never use them for AR Whitetails in my 300WM.

Thanks for the detailed report.

[jro45]

Myself I use the 150 bullet for deer. I would think that the 165gr bullet could kill a deer as well.