1853 enfield musket load

[argie1891]

i bought a armi sport reproduction of the 1853  rifeled musket and am finally gettin around to shooting it. i have 3 different minni ball moulds and so far i have
found that with the standard load of 65 grs. of 2f powder the bullets hit
the target sideways. at 80 gr. charge they are stable. i am using as close to pure lead as i can get so i dont think it is caused by the alloy. my question. is this common and if it is how did anyone hit anyone with the standard in the great conflict??  i made a slip on front sight so it is high enough to shoot to point of aim. i didnt want to modify the rifle so i made it so it will come off without changein anything on a premanent basis anyway it sure is a neat rifle. thanks joe gifford aka argie1891

[longcaribiner]

The standard charges for the 1853 enfield as published by the British War Dept, were all around 60 to 68 grains of powder and a 450 to 500 Minnie.     Upping the powder too much causes the pressure to blow out the skirt of the hollow bases as the bullet exits the muzzle.  That causes all kinds of problems.    The 1853 Enfield was an odd bird with rifling that was deeper at the breech than at the muzzle.   So original obturation of the bullet was to force the bullet to expand into the rifling on ignition and then as the bullet traveled down the barrel gradually swaged the bullet back down.  I understand that Parker Hale Repro's copy that original rifling.  I don't know about the italian repros.  Italians have a way of copying rifles and then adding or subtracting features to match the amount the ordering wholesaler wants to pay.    I have an Italian made Zouave Repro (Zoli) with three groove rifling.  It don't shoot minnie's worth a crap.  Patched round balls with moderate loads however, it isn't a tack driver, but keeps pretty fair groups (clover leafs).  I let beginners shoot it with only 30 grains of powder and the groups at 25 & 50 yds are amazing for first timers.    I have used it for hunting with 65 grains and it will keep the shots on a 6 inch circle at 100 yds.   

At the time the rifle was developed, it was heralded as having some accurate long range capacities, maybe in the hands of an expert rifleman.  The standard of the day was throwing lead with reasonable frequency by largely uneducated well drilled soldiers standing in blocks.   There were substantial problems after fouling started to build up, so the war dept fiddled with all kinds of things to aid loading.  Including reducing the diameter of bullets.  It was pretty commonly accepted that all accuracy was gone by the fourth or fifth shot without cleaning.  In quite a few of the guns, it became nearly impossible to load again with out cleaning because of the fouling.    Somewhere I have a copy of an old Canadian Arms Collector's Journal that traces the problems with the rifles and the long British War Dept List of Changes for ammo standards.

[argie1891]

thanks for the reply. maybe the powder they used was hotter or maybe they didnt expect the bullet to hit much with the untrained marksman you mention. my understanding is that the bayonet killed more than the rifle. joe gifford aka argie1891

[Semisane]

Hey Argie, try patched balls.  Your gun just might like them.



EDIT:  The target notes are pretty hard to see.  It's a .58 Zouave with 70 grains GOEX FFFg and a .575 patched ball at 50 yards.

[blackpowderbill]

In my PH 2 band Enfield I shoot 50 gr FFF and a 596 gr Minie. The English PHs do indeen have progressive depth rifling. The bore is constant but the grooves start deep at the breech and are almost smooth at the muzzle.

[argie1891]

i am going to try round ball, but the mini with 80 gr. of 2f shoots pretty good groups. maybe it just likes more powder and it is heavy enough that an  80 gr. load is pretty pleasant to shoot. joe gifford aka argie1891

[S.S.]

There is a Minie' with a thick skirt for heavier loads but I have found that they
are not as accurate.

[RaiderANV]

 Lyman 575213 mold sized to fit your bore and sit it on top of 40 grains of 3F Goex and you'll shoot one inch groups all day long. Providing the bore is minty

[filmokentucky]

thanks for the reply. maybe the powder they used was hotter or maybe they didnt expect the bullet to hit much with the untrained marksman you mention. my understanding is that the bayonet killed more than the rifle. joe gifford aka argie1891

The original load was a 530 grain, smooth-sided, paper patched Pritchett bullet over 2 and1/2 drams (68 grains) of powder or a Burton Minie of about the same weight with four grease grooves over the same charge. They both were hollow based, but the Burton had an iron plug that was driven forward to expand the base upon discharge of the rifle. They were effective and accurate weapons that gave every  soldier a long range weapon for the first time. They were also built to a very high standard as were the English made Parker Hale rifle muskets in the 1970s. During the Civil War it was found tht the slightly larger--.575" diameter Minie in the Enfild's .577" bore was capable of great accuracy. This basic bullet is available today or at least the mold is, from Lyman. Well lubed to keep the fouling soft and with consistent powder charges these guns are very accurate.

I expect that more men fell to the rifle-musket's fire than to the bayonet. Often, whole companies were destroyed before they could get within bayonet reach. Napoleonic tactics were never meant to deal with the kind of range and accuracy these fine rifles produced, and all too many American boys on both sides paid in blood for this oversight.

[surveyor47]

The FF load of 80 grains and a minnie sounds way too hot.  Your load should be closer to 60 grains of FF and I absolutely would not exceed 70 grains of FF.  What bullet diameter are you using?  A Parker Hale Enfield should fire 0.577 or 0.576 diameter bullet, depending upon what the gun likes and what you can fit down the bore beyond 5 or 6 rounds.  You can purchase sizer dies through www.northeasttradeco.com  but you will have to phone them.  The sizers fit the RCBS Rockchucker. Remember, the steel tends to be soft in these guns and the barrels a lot thinner than something like a Thompson Center. You cant hot rod these guns and get by with it for long.

Nice round ball group.  Thats the sort of accuracy you should be getting with a properly sized minnie.  Lube makes a difference as well.  I prefer SPG for summer and Lens Lube for winter. Whichever lube you use, a double boiler is best to keep from breaking down the lubes properties. I use 2 pie pans, one with lube and the other with boiling water.  Boil the water and let it melt the lube in the inner pan.  Then dip the base of the minnie in the lube.  It does not matter if the lube goes into the hollow base.

For hunting, I use a thick skirted minnie hollow point.  Hornady used to make a good one, their Great Plains bullet.  Simply size it to the diameter the gun likes and youre all set.

[filmokentucky]

The English made Parker-Hale Enfields have a .577 bore and would not be easy to load with a .577 Minie on the first round never mind after several shots. The .575 with a quality lube on it works fine. The standard military load was 68 grains of powder, so there is no need to drop down to 60 grains for a hunting load. With a thick skirted Minie, these guns will handle 80 grains without a problem. They are strong at the breech and made from fine materials. I can't speak to the situation with the Italian built guns, but the English ones are robust and accurate rifles.

[surveyor47]

I shoot competition with a Parker Hale Musketoon, a Birmingham gun as do several other teammates.  The 2 band Enfield, particularly the Birmingham guns, are popular as well.   My particuar gun shoots a 0.577 minnie with 45  grains of FFF or 60 grains of FF.  I have warned many many times not to exceed that load, because these guns will not stand much more when fired thousands of times.  There is a difference between a load fired just a few times and one fired thousands of times. 

When testing my gun, I started with a 575 sizer and got lousy accuracy.  The minnie would drop to the bottom of the barrel.  I then went to 0.576 and got somewhat better accuracy, but not much better.  The story changed drastically when I went to 0.577.  I truely believe that this gun could shoot a rock accurately provided that it is sized to 0.577.  I have never had difficulty loading with up to 11 rounds fired in competition.  My team captains gun uses a 0.577 bullet as well.  We have a team mate who has a 0.577 James River Armory gun, but while he found that it extremely accurate with 0.577s, he couldnt load past  5 rounds without difficulty.  He is going to try reducing his diamter to 0.576 and increase his charge to probably 50 grains of FFF or 65 FF. I own another James River gun that also requires a slightly undersized bullet and I regularly shoot 55 grains of FFF, which is probably equivalent to 70 FF; however, my team mates dont like it. 

All in all, I dont know of anyone who shoots a 0.575 out of a 0.577 gun with any accuracy.  I agree that a thick skirted hunting minne, such as a Hornady Great Plains Bullet is going to require a heavier powder charge than a thin skirted competition bullet.

I dont see anything wrong with 68 grains of FF, but I think that 80 grains of FF is pushing the limits.  Didnt the Union start issuing 70 grain cartridges due to poor quality powder?

One of the biggest difficulties with these guns is judging exactly how much is too much.  The manufacturer and "authorative" sources may say in print that the guns are capable of much higher powder charges, but gunsmiths who deal with them regularly usually disagree strongly.  For example, years ago when Thompson Centers technicians would actually speak to you, we discussed a situation where I split the stock of a 54 cal Thompson Center New Englander (which is a modern gun with a thick barrel, not a Civil War gun). The technician asked my charge and I told him 120 grains of FF, just the way the book said.  The tecnician said, "NO NO NO NO! Never exceed 100 grains of FF in those guns, preferably 80 or 90 grains of FF. I dont care what the book or management says. I have seen too many of these guns blown up."

[longcaribiner]

There is a concept called work hardening.  Some metals get hard and brittle after thousands of repetitive stresses.   I'm not sure of the reasoning or facts behind it, but it even happens to some mild steels. 

There is a sometimes related concept that has to do with repetitive percussions that causes failures as well.  Back when they still used returnable bottles for soda pop, they found that the constant small bumps of the processing process over numerous times a bottle was washed, refilled and sealed, would lead to stress fractures that would eventually permit a bottle to explode.   The term I heard for it in the bottle industry is "chatter sleek"      Metals can experience the same type weakening process.  I know that percussion nipples in old shotguns get brittle from all the constant hammering.   Some metals get brittle, seemingly just from age.     

That is why I cringe when I hear folks spouting off about using 250 grains of WhupButt pellets in their "ultimate" muzzleloader.  Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but maybe someday, they are gonna need a trip to the plastic surgeon, if not the undertaker.

pushing the envelope is fine for the pros who understand what they are doing, they understand the manufacture process, the metallurgy involved and also the risk of defects and failures.  Guys who just pack it in as some kind of macho thing are actually fools.

My uncle bought a brand new Pontiac about 20 years ago.  He drove it from the dealer to his home, a distance of 3 miles.  When he pulled into his driveway at about 10 miles per hour, just going around the turn and over the 1.6 inch bump from the street into the driveway entrance caused a blow out.  Due to a metallurgy defect in the rim.  It peeled apart like a bannana.    Defects occur, it is a fact of life.    Be careful.     

Surveyor is right to caution about charges used.

[Tryit 1]

Argie1891, I also shoot the Parker Hale two band and use the new Hodgons bullet sized to .576. Also I use only 41 grs. of 3f blackpowder. I can make all of the bullet holes touch at 50 yards accross the bench. I have a home range that my friends and I shoot on and have truck tires with convyer belts rolled up in the middle. Most of the bullets will pass through and hit the steel plate to the rear of the tired and belts. At 80 grs. The bullet will pass through the animal and expend most of it energy in what ever it hits. I have many friends that hunt with these rifles and use 40 to 45 grs of black powder with a very high degree of success. Tryit 1.

[longcaribiner]

Here's an interesting and sobering thought.  According to Lyman's Black Powder handbook, a Lyman 575213 505 grain minnie ball fired over 50 grains of ffg Goex fired from a 24 inch Zouave barrel, at 100 yards still packs 534 ft lbs of energy.   To equal that same 100 yd energy, with a 50 caliber round ball out of a 28 inch Hawkin barrel would take 130 grains of powder.   Now, according to the same book, firing a 57 cal round ball from the same Zouave barrel would require the same 130 grains of ffg to have 517 ft lbs of energy. 

Just over 2 and a half times the same powder to have the same 100 yd energy.    50 grains under that minnie seems quite capable as a hunting load and is on par with much more dangerous round ball loads.   

The other interesting statistic is the barrel pressure for each such load.

  the minnie   3,020 LUP   the 50 cal round ball over 130 grains, 14,400CUP   the 57 round ball  over 130 grains, 7,640 LUP

I'm not sure how to relate CUP to LUP, but  I'd rather be shooting the lower pressure load.

And that same minnie ball and bullet over 80 grains of GO ffg is 4,340 LUP with 698 ft lbs at 100 yds. 

[coyotejoe]

But why overlook the most interesting part of those ballistic tables, the trajectory. With that 50 grain load the 505 grain minie leaves the muzzle at less than 600 fps and with a 50 yard zero it drops 9.27" at 75 yards and 25.38" at 100 yards. That's all well and good for the target shooter who shoots at exact known ranges and knows how to hold for those ranges but it would be totally ridiculous to hunt with such a curved trajectory. Your 80 grain load still does less than 1000 fps at the muzzle and again with the 50 yard zero you'll still be down 3.17" at 75 and 8.94" at 100. That's the rub in those tales of "long shooting" with minie balls, to score a hit you have to know the range exactly, at 300 yards they drop more than 20 FEET!
 Load a patched .570" round ball over 100 grains of 2f and you get about 1300 fps. Sight in 2" high at 50 and you'll be only 3" low at 100. That load allows the hunter to hold dead center at any distance from the muzzle out to 100 yards without concern for the exact distance. When I have game in sight I'm nervous enough without having to worry whether it is 65 yards or 75 yards, I want a rifle and load which doesn't care about those little variables.

[longcaribiner]

You certainly have the concept right.  My book says tht 505 over 50 grains is waltzing at 742 ft per second.  and drop at 100 is about half of what you report.  The thing about targe shooters is that after several matches shooting 50, 75 and 100 yards, they get to be right good at estimating hunting ranges in that neighborhood.  besides that  loading 130 grains o powder in a round ball shooter of average 28 inch length is a waste of powder.   The problem is that round balls slow down so fast out at 100 yards hat the drop acclerates beyond what a conical will do.    A 570 round ball, at 100 yds, has lost nearly 55 % of it initial energy.  At 125 yds about 60%    At 150 yds it is dropping like a rock.  There reaches a point at which the conical retains more energy and speed than the round ball simply due to the round ball's loss of velocity. Drastic increases n powder can only garner a few extra yards range with a round ball.  No matter what, there is a whiffle ball effect with round balls.  It goes like Heck piling air up in front of it, which in turn slows it down at an ever faster rate of deceleration.   If you check the velocties at distances of a round ball fired over a moderate amount of powder vs over a really high rate of powder, you won't find a proportionate deceleration.   The ball fired over 130 grains will, at 150 yds, have lost a much higher percentage of it's initial velocity than a ball fired over 65 grains.  The ballistic coefficient of a round ball should be the same for both charges, but the deceleration doesn't occur at the same rate.  It is faster for the "hyper-speed" round ball.   That's the whiffle ball effect.   this problem leads to an even further reduction in the plausible hunting range of the increased powder charges.  In other words, a hunting range for a 65 grain charge isn't doubled by doubling the charge.  There certainly is an extension of the range, but it may only be 25 or 30 %  That range can be extended more effectively by switching to a conical bullet.   

Don't get me wrong, I am a round ball hunter.  And at short distances, the round ball packs certain advantages.  but for any hunting over 100 yards, a conical with less powder is a better choice.

For some reason in muzzleloading there is this "popeye syndrome" to keep increasing the powder charge, with the idea that it is better for some reason.  Granted, I don't think 100 grains is necessarily a bad load.  in a short barrel rifle, like 22 or 24 inches about 15% percent of that isn't even burned before the ball exits the muzzle.  ie wasted.  in a 32 inch barrel, it puts max oomph behind the ball.     It still isn't a 200 yd load for white tail.  On the other hand a 60 grain load under a 450 grain minnie can quite adequately kill a deer at that range.  Early buff hunters generally found that heavy bullets and powder charges in the 60 to 80 grain range were quite good for 400 and 500 yard one shot kills.   You aren't gonna ever do that with a round ball, even with 130 grains of whoopdedoo powder.           

[coyotejoe]

Let us assume you get that minie up to a whopping 800fps. The first edition Lyman BP Handbook shows that from a 50 yard zero you're still down 5.05" at 75 yards and 13.96" at 100. It doesn't matter how much energy is retained if you miss.
As a blackpowder hunter I consider 100 yards to be my maximum range and I want a rifle to have at least a 100 yard point blank range without guessing holdover. With roundballs retained energy is adequate to 100 yards and trajectory is virtually flat to 100 yards. With the 500 grain or heavier minies retained energy is considerably greater but trajectory becomes a guessing game much past 50 yards and a wild guess past 100. Shooting at know distances on the target range in no way improves range estimation on game in the wild. I've never seen anyone who could estimate range on game in the field better than plus or minus 25% and with the atrocious trajectory of minies 25% isn't good enough.  It is absurd to speak of 200 yard shots with any traditional muzzleloader, round or minie ball, fun on the range but totally irresponsible on game.
 Even the military recognized that trajectory was a serious problem with the minieballs and issued a primitive rangefinder for sergeants who'd walk up and down the line telling the troops how to set sights and when to fire. For all of that many experienced Civil War officers still considered the smoothbore musket to be a more effective battle implement.

[longcaribiner]

It only takes 60 grains for the minnie to reach over 800 ft/sec.   And your 100 grains flung PRB will be running around 1200 ft/sec.  That means it drops 7 inches between 75 yds and 100 yds.  Real flat trajectory huh?    The minnie will have a 100 yd midrange of 7.4 inches. not good, but comparable to your alleged flatter stats. 

From muzzle to 100yds, your PRB will lose 25-30 percent of it's velocity. The minnie starting slower will still have 90-92 perent of its velocity at 100 yards.  So by the time we reach 125 yards, they are traveling approximately the same speed.  beyond that the round ball is still losing velocity at a faster rate.

Now if we just discuss 58 round balls, you are only getting a small increase in speed for such a heavy charge.  Worse yet, the faster ball slows down faster so that at 100 yds, your net gain is actually a small percentage of energy, than at the muzzle.  firing such a heavy huting charge gets you maybe an additional 25 yards over what many consider just  a target load.    For a 50 cal PRB thae stats at 100 uds are amazing.  a 50 grain charge results in a certain speed and energy down range.  A 150 grain charge out of a standard 28 inch hunting barrel doesn't even double the 100yd energy.  more like one and two-thirds.  When compareing an 80 grain charge, that 150 only gets about 15 to 20 percent more energy at 100 yds.   Double the powder for negligible increase in energy at 100 yds.  That's really sad.      Then compare the pressure of the loads, the risk of mishap  and the punishing recoil.  Ya gotta wonder why somebody would do it.   
   

[filmokentucky]

I shoot competition with a Parker Hale Musketoon, a Birmingham gun as do several other teammates.  The 2 band Enfield, particularly the Birmingham guns, are popular as well.   My particuar gun shoots a 0.577 minnie with 45  grains of FFF or 60 grains of FF.  I have warned many many times not to exceed that load, because these guns will not stand much more when fired thousands of times.  There is a difference between a load fired just a few times and one fired thousands of times. 

When testing my gun, I started with a 575 sizer and got lousy accuracy.  The minnie would drop to the bottom of the barrel.  I then went to 0.576 and got somewhat better accuracy, but not much better.  The story changed drastically when I went to 0.577.  I truely believe that this gun could shoot a rock accurately provided that it is sized to 0.577.  I have never had difficulty loading with up to 11 rounds fired in competition.  My team captains gun uses a 0.577 bullet as well.  We have a team mate who has a 0.577 James River Armory gun, but while he found that it extremely accurate with 0.577s, he couldnt load past  5 rounds without difficulty.  He is going to try reducing his diamter to 0.576 and increase his charge to probably 50 grains of FFF or 65 FF. I own another James River gun that also requires a slightly undersized bullet and I regularly shoot 55 grains of FFF, which is probably equivalent to 70 FF; however, my team mates dont like it. 

All in all, I dont know of anyone who shoots a 0.575 out of a 0.577 gun with any accuracy.  I agree that a thick skirted hunting minne, such as a Hornady Great Plains Bullet is going to require a heavier powder charge than a thin skirted competition bullet.

I dont see anything wrong with 68 grains of FF, but I think that 80 grains of FF is pushing the limits.  Didnt the Union start issuing 70 grain cartridges due to poor quality powder?

One of the biggest difficulties with these guns is judging exactly how much is too much.  The manufacturer and "authorative" sources may say in print that the guns are capable of much higher powder charges, but gunsmiths who deal with them regularly usually disagree strongly.  For example, years ago when Thompson Centers technicians would actually speak to you, we discussed a situation where I split the stock of a 54 cal Thompson Center New Englander (which is a modern gun with a thick barrel, not a Civil War gun). The technician asked my charge and I told him 120 grains of FF, just the way the book said.  The tecnician said, "NO NO NO NO! Never exceed 100 grains of FF in those guns, preferably 80 or 90 grains of FF. I dont care what the book or management says. I have seen too many of these guns blown up."

Well, I've been shooting my Parker Hale 1853 ever since it was new (it has a 4 didigit serial number) using a .575 Minie and 70 grains of FFg with no problems at all--either accuracy-wise or durability-wise. Many thousands of rounds have gone down that barrel and the gun still looks new inside and out. Don't know who told to never exceed your loads and it's fine if you don't, but the gun will handle it without difficulty. Perhaps your expert is speaking in terms of target work only, where light loads are the norm and you need to use a very tight Minie because these weak loads won't properly expand the correct projectile?

I use a standard Minie mold with the base plug turned down to make a slightly thicker skirt. With eighty grains of FFg this makes for a fine hunting load. You may not know anyone who uses a .575 Minie in a .577 bore but I do. Lots of people. But they don't shoot squib loads, they use the standard military load and use the guns as they were intended. This light load target shooting is just one aspect of shooting rifle-muskets and a fairly recent one at that. When I started shooting muzzleloaders over a half century ago, I don't recall anyone doing this.

I'll bet Thompson Center would be very pleased that one of their technicians has "seen too many of these guns blown up!" And with a powder charge that they claim is safe. I'll check with my friend who works at T/C before I state this as fact, but I've never heard of  T/C  rifles blowing up and certainly not in large numbers. Perhaps this technician will be willing to cite all the incidents that he is referring to right on this forum?  Actually, perhaps you'd be willing to give him a call and invite him to post his story here? I'll give you a couple of days and if you haven't been able to contact your guy, I'll call my friend. This could turn into an interesting discussion don't you think?

[blackpowderbill]

I have been shooting an English PH 1858 since the 1970s. Light loads and heavy loads with no problems. The current loads that I havw settled upon after much trail and error is a heavy thick skirted Minie (596gr) over 55gr of 3F lubed with a talow/Bswax mixture. The book says a load like that should chron ograph at around 800 fps but when shot across one it registers a consistant 1020 tp 1050 fps. I have shot the load at varying ranges to check the trajectory againg the computer estimates and they verify the velocity.
The bullet is shot as cast at .575 inch. I average 3MOA off a rest making it one of the most reliably consistant weapons I own. 
  These are rugged guns made to fight a war with, I wouldn't worry about stressing anything with reasonable loads.

[filmokentucky]

These English P-H Enfields are probably the best rifle-musket ever made. Their strength and accuracy have long been unquestioned and overall they are just beautifully made guns. I wouln't part with mine under any conceivable circumstamces.

[longcaribiner]

Black powder bill, you are probably getting higher velocities in part due to the longer barrel.  Lyman did their tests with cut down Zouave barrels.      In addition, the gradually shallowing rifling probably seals the bore a bit better than a straight constant depth rifling barrel. 

 Unfortunately, some folks feel the need to cram the barrel full of powder, to the point that the weight of the powder and bullet may act like a bore obstruction.  I recently left a range because another guy was loading 4 - 50 grain pellets and bullet into a cheap looking side lock gun.  I didn't care about his safety, just mine.     When I take my Zouave hunting, it is usually 80 grains max under a PRB.  Never saw a reason for more. 

[surveyor47]

It is important not to confuse MODERN caplocks with CIVIL WAR caplocks.  Modern American made guns such as the Thompson Center Hawken/New Engleander/Black Mountain Magnum have very thick barrels, made from modern steel and fire powder charges much greater than Civil War guns, many of which use softer steels, particularly the Italian replicas.  There are several generations of Parker Hale Enfield replicas, some of which were made in Italy, varying in quality.  Navy Arms has announced that it is moving its manufacture of Parker Hale Enfields to the United States, precisely due to those problems.

[longcaribiner]

The problem, Surveyor, is that those American made Guns, have barrels which are too short to effectively use anything over 100 grains of powder.  The excess is mostly wasted in muzzle flash with very little increase in velocity, a very dramatic increase in pressure and down range at 100 yds, only small increases in energy with round balls.     The hollow based minnie balls are made to expand and seal the bore upon ignition, the problem is that too much powder, ie anything over about 80 grains, leads to the pressure blowing out the skirt when the minnie leaves the muzzle and that causes all manner of inaccuracy.      Since nearly no one fires a hollow base minnie in a TC gun, the problem rarely comes up in those guns.         

[surveyor47]

I know of one minnie type bullet out there suitable to the T/C, the Horady Great Plains bullet, which has a very thick skirt and a hollow point.  Appears to be swedged from pure lead.  I have had excellent luck with that bullet out of a 50 cal T/C New Englander and 80 grains of FF black powder. 

I also think that half the accuracy problems in T/C guns can be traced to REAL type bullets, such as the Maxi Ball and Lyman Great Plains bullet, which engrave upon loading.  I am thinking about sizing these bullets to see if accuracy doenst improve dramatically. I wish I could find a good thick skirted minnie bullet mold suitable for the 50 & 54 T/C guns.

[longcaribiner]

Lee actually made some hollow base molds for minnies for 45, 50 and 54.  But they ceased production of their hollow base molds about a year ago.  You may well find some old stock at one of the mail order suppliers or used on ebay etc.

[filmokentucky]

It is important not to confuse MODERN caplocks with CIVIL WAR caplocks.  Modern American made guns such as the Thompson Center Hawken/New Engleander/Black Mountain Magnum have very thick barrels, made from modern steel and fire powder charges much greater than Civil War guns, many of which use softer steels, particularly the Italian replicas.  There are several generations of Parker Hale Enfield replicas, some of which were made in Italy, varying in quality.  Navy Arms has announced that it is moving its manufacture of Parker Hale Enfields to the United States, precisely due to those problems.

The Italian guns are all proofed before they can be shipped. The various rifle-musket reproductions will easily stand an 80 grain charge behind a 560 grain TRUE Minie round. The Hornady "Minie" you refer to is not a true Minie and doesn't even look like one. Still, I doubt if it would be unsafe in any Italian proofed rifle-musket.

If you want a true Minie for use in a .50 or .54 caliber rifle, just buy a mold in that caliber and turn down the base plug so that the mold throws a thicker based Minie. Go slow and remove a little at a time as it doesn't take much. Steel molds are best.

In an earlier post, I requested that you ask your friendly technician at T/C to post his stories about all the T/C muzzleloaders that he has seen blown up by factory acceptable loads. Were you able to contact him and if so is he willing to join the discussion? I have been unable to find anyone who has heard of these stories and can find no references to them anywhere. Where are we at with this? I can contact my friend at T/C and have him post his thoughts on the subject, if that seems best. Let me know.

[longcaribiner]

Those who have access to PACER can look up all the federal litigation involving Thompson center.

[filmokentucky]

I'm just interested in why T/C would recommend what they consider a safe maximum load and one of their own people would not only adamantly recommend against the load but say that he'd seen "too many of these guns blown up".  T/C has been making muzzleloaders for almost 40 years now and I've been around muzzleloading for a lot longer than that, and I've never heard of T/Cs blowing up in great numbers. I receive a number of firearms magazines every month and have for years, and never have seen a story about exploding T/Cs. Can't recall Muzzle Blasts mentioning the problem either and I've been an NMLRA member for sometime now. I belong to several on-line firearms forums, mostly dealing with muzzleloading, and no one has ever talked about the time their T/C blew up on them.

Don't care about litigation, I'd just like surveyor 47 to contact the chatty T/C tech and supply some more details. I have a Seneca--one of the very first--and while it hasn't blown up yet it apparently could without warning. And I have many friends who own various T/C models and when I mentioned this to them they became very nervous. They are talking about contacting T/C and asking why they haven't been warned of this danger. I've asked them to hold off and let me see what I can find out first. Since surveyor47 seems to be privy to inside information about these guns and has seen fit to publicly state it here, there may be others who are concerned. In view of this, his lack of response to what appears to be a serious safety concern is deplorable. And sooner or later, one of the guys that has discussed this with me is going to call T/C and start asking questions.