New .45-70 reloads

[cherokee75]

Well I broke down and bought soem IMR 3031 for my .45-70.  I just reloaded 10 rounds to try next Sunday at the range.  My load is:

300 grain Remington JHP W/C (bulk from Cabelas)
50.0 grains IMR 3031
Federal No. 210 Large Rifle Primers
Federal Brass

My manual says approx. 1800 fps.  I was wondering, does Remington make their own bullets or does another company make them?  Anyway, I would be interested in any data for IMR 3031 and other bullets.

[surveyor47]

I am using a similar load in my Encore and will be testing for my Marlin before long.  Why only 10 rounds of 1 loading? Dont you start from bottom and work up, firing groups of 5 each testing for accuracy?  I usually load a 50 round box with 5 rounds of each loading in 1 grain increments, starting at bottom and working to a little below maximum for Marlin loaings.  I found that accurcy loads for Remington 300s and Remington 405s to be VERY similar with IMR3031.  In my Encore, the 405 Remington is much more accurate than the 300, but a lot harder on the shoulder.

Why dont you buy your Remington bulk bullets (500 each) from www.midwayusa.com  I notice that Cabelas is rather steep lately. 

[cherokee75]

surveyor47,
I started at that load becasue it is right around what others told me in the reloading forum awhile back.  I only loaded 10 because that is all the empty brass I have.  As for the bullets, I bought them off a member in the classified forum.  What increments did you start with and go to as far as powder?

[surveyor47]

First, lets get you some brass at a decent price.  www.starlinebrass.com  250 cases for $102.

Next, lets get you some bullets at a decent price. www.midwayusa.com  500 bullets for $119.

I would also purchase a copy of Lyman Reloading Manual 49th Ediion. 

The 45-70 has a large loading range, from Trapdoor through Marlin.  According to Lyman Reloading Manual 49th Ed, the load you selected is only 1 grain under maximum and it is NEVER a good idea to start with a maximum load. The good news is that different manuals use different pressure ranges for Marlin loads and Lyman is on the low side of the various manufacturers. I have NEVER had a bad load from Lyman and I trust them.  But beware, some powders are temperature sensative and a load which is perfectly safe in winter may stick in the chamber in summer.  This is another good reason to stay well under maximum, particularly if your gun is most accurate with a somewhat reduced powder charge.    The only way to know how your gun will react is to test for accuracy and signs of pressure, working up starting low. 

I actually started in the Trapdoor range and worked up 1.0 grain at a time, all the way to maximum Marlin load, per Lyman manual.  I loaded 5 rounds each at the 1.0 grain increment. Each load was then test fired to an individual target and marked according to the load.  As successive groups are fired, a pattern of group size emerges on successive targets.  When finished, you should find an area where accuracy starts looking really good, lets say for arguments sake between 48 and 50 grains.  You can then load 5 loads each at 0.5 grain increments and retest. For example, 48.0 then 48.5, then 49.0 then 49.5, then 50.0 This way you can zero in on the load with greatest accuracy.  When you are testing, check primers for signs of excessive pressure and difficult extraction and stop the test if you do see signs of excessive pressure. All firing should be done on a calm day from a benchrest.  I do my 45-70 accuracy testing at 75 yards, due to use of iron sights. For my hunting load, I am looking for the load with the smallest group size at a reasonable high velocity. If I dont find it with one powder, then I try another.  I have found IMR3031 to be really excellent wtih Marlin loads.  IMR4198 seems better with cast bullets or jacketed at Trapdoor velocities.

Wtih my Encore, I found 2 points of really excellent accuracy with the 300 grain Remington JHP, the first at the high end of Trapdoor range and the other near the top of Marlin range.  The low point was with IMR4198 and the high point was with IMR3031.  The Trapdoor load is a really pleasant load to shoot.  The high end Marlin load is not as accurate and is a bit stiff on the shoulder.  I find that high end Trapdoor loads are a loat more fun to shoot and hit the 100 yard gong with AUTHORITY!

 If you extensively shoot high end 405 grain Remingtons at high end Marlin velocities, your shoulder may be sensitive for a day or two. Even at Trapdoor velocities, I think that this bullet should kill any deer that ever walked this earth, like hit by a bolt of lightning.

[surveyor47]

You can get loading data first hand from Hodgdons website.  Hodgdon is the manufacturer of Hodgdon, Winchester and IMR powders. 

www.hodgdon.com

The very first rule of handloading is to load starting with a LOW as in "Starting" powder charge, as listed in published reloading data.  This is generally about 10% below maximum.

The Hornady Reloading Handbook is my go to manual due to the similarity between Remingtons Core Lock and Hornadys Interlock designs.  They are NOT idential bullets and therefore some variance in safe maximum loads. I do not know of any website or publisher specifically identifying Remington Bullets. 

The Lyman and Hornady manuals give excellent descriptions of adverse conditions, such as incipient case separation, cracking, case stretching, trim to length specifications.

I believe that Hornady also produces a reloading instructional video.

www.hornady.com


Y

[EsoxLucius]

There really is nothing wrong with just loading up a bunch of 50 grain IMR3031 300 grain bullet 45-70 loads to see how they shoot.  I would think one would get adequate ignition with it although one might find some burnt powder residue. Who knows maybe one could get lucky and find it is a good shooter with acceptable velocity.  There is really no need to "work up" loads if a desired load is below a published starting load.  However, if one goes too low with a charge below that which is published there could be ignition problems, and in some cartridges (magnums and some pistol rounds) reduced loads with some powders can cause pressure spikes.

In the 45-70, the Springfield Trapdoor starting load of 56 grains of IMR 3031 with a 300 grain Sierra is barely over 21,000 CUP and about 1832 fps in a 22" barrel.  Hence, there should be no pressure problems with a 50 grain load.  I do think if someone is looking for accuracy a bit more work in load development is warranted.

[surveyor47]

Quoting Hornady Handbook, 6th Ed.
Page 72, RULE 9: "DONT START WITH MAXIMUM LOADS. Powder charges we label as maximum were safe in our test firearms and with our components. These loads may be more than maximum for your firearm. Start with loads, say 10% below the maximum listed and work up. You are courting danger if you dont exercise care in load development."

Page 72, Rule 10: "REDEVELOP LOADS WHEN YOU CHANGE COMPONENTS. Change a primer? Change a cartridge case? Dont automatically assume an old load will work well with new components. Start low again and work up."

Page 72, Rule 11:  "DONT USE REDUCED LOADS OF SLOW BURNING POWDER. Reduced loads can produce both high pressures and unpredictable results. Dont test your luck on the subject."   

Page 71, Rule 5: "READ THIS BOOK.  Follow instructions. Loads are not recipies that you can adjust at will.  Adding a little more powder is not like adding a little more salt to the stockpot. Know the steps of reloading and follow the process carefully."

[surveyor47]

Hodgdon warning:

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

Alliant Powder safety:

http://www.alliantpowder.com/getting_started/safety/default.aspx

Accurate Arms safety
http://www.accuratearms.com/Safety.htm


This is why we have reloading manuals and rules for reloading safely.  Lots of resources are listed above.  There is no reason that anyone should have to "get a load" off of an internet forum.  If in doubt, call Hodgdon:

"If you have a safety problem or concern - DO NOT EMAIL - CALL US DIRECTLY 7:00am to 5:30pm Central Monday-Thursday : 913-362-9455"

[EsoxLucius]

"DONT START WITH MAXIMUM LOADS... "

50 grains of IMR3031 under a 300 grain jacketed bullet is nowhere near a maximum load for the 45-70, as a matter of fact it is 6 grains below a starting load for the 45-70 in a Springfield Trapdoor rifle.

"REDEVELOP LOADS WHEN YOU CHANGE COMPONENTS..."

I agree one should work up to maximum loads again after substituting components.  However, when substituting components in loads well below starting charges, what's the point?

"DONT USE REDUCED LOADS OF SLOW BURNING POWDER..."

This is usually a condition warned of for relatively large capacity cases (magnums) and the slow burning powders used in them to provide optimum loads.  The danger of reduced loads can also be present in some pistol cartridges with relatively fast burning powders.

IMR3031 is not a slow burning powder in the 45-70.  45-70 loads as low as 43 grains of IMR3031 with 300 grain bullets are well documented in the literature.  I have used 35 grains of IMR3031 with a 486 grain Schmittzer in my 45-70 Buffalo Classic for years.

"READ THIS BOOK..."

By all means one should read a variety of sources on reloading information before undertaking the activity.  But there was nothing that the OP was doing that indicated he was ignoring sound reloading practice.

[surveyor47]

1

"DONT START WITH MAXIMUM LOADS... "

50 grains of IMR3031 under a 300 grain jacketed bullet is nowhere near a maximum load for the 45-70, as a matter of fact it is 6 grains below a starting load for the 45-70 in a Springfield Trapdoor rifle.]


2

"REDEVELOP LOADS WHEN YOU CHANGE COMPONENTS..."

I agree one should work up to maximum loads again after substituting components.  However, when substituting components in loads well below starting charges, what's the point? ]


3

"DONT USE REDUCED LOADS OF SLOW BURNING POWDER..."

IMR3031 is not a slow burning powder in the 45-70.  This is usually a condition warned of for relatively large capacity cases (magnums) and the slow burning powders used in them to provide optimum loads.  The danger of reduced loads can also be present in some pistol cartridges with relatively fast burning powders.]   


4

"READ THIS BOOK..."

By all means one should read a variety of sources on reloading information before undertaking the activity.  But there was nothing that the OP was doing that indicated he was ignoring sound reloading practice.

1. Different manuals have different pressure ranges for Marlin loads. Lyman 49th Ed. uses 28,000 CUP and 51.0 grains of IMR3031 MAXIMUM for the Winchester 300 grain Power Point. The Remington is not listed.  Hornady 6th Ed. uses 40,000 CUP and 56.9 grains MAXIMUM with a Hornady bullet, NOT Remington.  I concede that the Remington bullet appears similar to the Hornady, but we have no hard data on Remington which is reason for extra caution. Hornady lists 25000 CUP for Trapdoor, which seems very high to me.

2. Depends upon the manual you use. Personally, I trust Lyman. 


3. Agreed.

4. Lets see. A bullet with no specific data. Pressure data varying from manufacturer to manufacturer. A small number of cases, some of which sound like range brass, therefore unknown condition.  Trimmed? Apparently new reloader.... I would test.  Components can be had at a reasonable price if you do a little looking and are willing to wait a few weeks, so I seen no reason to throw out the rulebook. Now if I were somewhere in Alaska and had only components for 10 rounds to save my life with, I would take the chance. Given that this does not appear a life or death situation, I see no reason to take the chance.

[Lone Star]

...Hornady lists 25000 CUP for Trapdoor, which seems very high to me.

Okay, whose opinion is best concerning safe pressures for the .45-70 - yours, or SAAMI's?

Depends upon the manual you use. Personally, I trust Lyman. 

Personally, all manuals are proven equally trustworthy - I know because I've used Hornady, Speer, Sierra, Nosler and Lyman data for over 35 years.   I don't know about you, but I tend to go by consensus - if one manual is far out from others, then personally I ignore that data.

But there was nothing that the OP was doing that indicated he was ignoring sound reloading practice.

Ditto here.  I'm all for safe reloading practices, but not impractical, theoretical worries.  He is loading for the very strong Marlin M1895, which has specific load data in most all manuals.  His load is way below maximum in current Sierra, Hornady and Speer manuals.  He is doing nothing wrong IMO, including asking for advice here.  You have made  your point, now perhaps it is time to move on to other important topics.  It's the OP's final decision afterall. 



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[surveyor47]

I never said that this load correctly assembled and in an in specification gun was unsafe.  Why would I say that a load that I in fact use is unsafe?  It is the procedure that I maintan is unsafe particulrly for an inexperienced reloader. Do we know as a fact that his chamber and barrel are in good condition and in specification? Do we know as a fact that the ammunition is correctly assembled; case trimmed to length, seating depth and crimp correct, primer seated correctly?  The simple fact is that we dont know. It is one thing for an experienced reloader, already familiar with a load in other guns to use it in other well proven guns, in fact a calculated risk. It is an entirely different issue for an inexperienced reloader to assemble a relatively warm load without prior testing. How much trouble is it to assemble 5 or 10 single test loads, from bottom to top and test fire them just to make sure?  That is what I do to verify my old loads in new guns of the same caliber.

30+ Years ago, I ruined a perfectly fine S&W19 357 Magnum with a load taken from Speer Reloading Manual #9, circa 1974.  The load was a starting load of a Speer 125 grain JHP and Blue Dot powder. Interestingly, Hodgdon has issued a recent warning NOT to use this combination of 125 grain bullet and Blue Dot, which was has been published  in several reloading manuals over many years. I have known for 30+ years that this combination is unsafe.  People have told me how wrong I am for discouraging use of Blue Dot in the 357, but it was my gun that was wrecked and it was not a theoretical exercise. So, I dont think it is fair to say that all reloading manuals are 100% reliable.  The manuals are simply the best proven data that we have available.

[cherokee75]

Shot my reloads Sunday.  They grouped right in with my factory Federal 300 grain loads.  The bullets look almost identical except the bullet (Speer) in the Federal has a smaller hollow point.  My reloads were with the Remington bullets.  Do they make their own or farm them out?

[helotaxi]

At least some of the Remington bullets are made by Hornady (the Accu-tip are the exact same bullet as the Interbond for big game and Vmax for varmint loads with a different colored tip).  Remington doesn't even make a lot of their firearms anymore, I seriously doubt that they make their bullets.

[Autorim]

I have burned a fair amount of powder in the 38-55 and 45-70 for quite a few years and found IMR 4198 to be more accurate and consistent than IMR 3031 in both cartridges. IMR 4198 is my standard powder in both cartridges.

[Lone Star]

Remington doesn't even make a lot of their firearms anymore, I seriously doubt that they make their bullets.

You'd be wrong - kinda.  They still make at least some of their traditional CoreLokt bullets, and they will even make limited runs for jobbers - and even for individuals.  But like many ammo makers today they do use more and more third party suppliers for their high-end bullets.


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