Author Topic: Reverse Ballistics - Bullet into Building...Can we find where it "came from"?  (Read 1183 times)

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Online Land_Owner

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Yesterday morning, at the office, we found a bullet that had come through a 1/8" thick French Door glass  (5' - 7 5/8" above the floor), through a shear window curtain, impacting 4 inches below the point of entry into a manufacturer's catalog on a bookshelf 14'-7" from the point of entry, leaving a sizable indent in the catalog and bouncing back into the room about 10 feet. 

The mushroomed bullet was confiscated by the Sherrif's Department prior to caliper, so observers and the discoverer guess that it was 380.  I did not see the bullet. 

We don't think we're the target of anyone's fury.  The office is not in a likely place for such a flagrant act, although we're adjacent to a major State Road and the only 4-laned arterial north to south for the Island.  For now, it is assumed to be a random act of violence.  Cautions are high and the "terror" threat is heightened.

Can the dimensions provided above tell us anything about the trajectory or Place of Origin of the bullet?

Assumptions and wild arsed guesses should be stated for clarity.

Offline AtlLaw

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we found a bullet that had come through a 1/8" thick French Door glass  (5' - 7 5/8" above the floor), through a shear window curtain, impacting 4 inches below the point of entry into a manufacturer's catalog on a bookshelf 14'-7" from the point of entry, leaving a sizable indent in the catalog and bouncing back into the room about 10 feet.

Geeese!  Sounds like you work in Atlanta!   ::)

The initial investigating officers should have plotted all that info.  But at best it gives you a general idea of where the bullet came from.  You can do it yourself.  Just eliminate bullet trajectory and possible deflection and draw a line from POI through the initial point of entry and follow that line backward to a probable point of origin.  then, if necessary and you want, you can combine gestimates of the effect of other influences on the bullet, i.e. possible angle of deflection by the door or other interveining influences on bullet flight; bullet trajectory based on distance from possible firing points; stuff like that, to determine the most probable firing point.  A lot more simple then high school algibra!   :D
Richard
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Online Land_Owner

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Not Hotlanta...Merritt Island, FL...a very sleepy place by comparison.

Standing at the catalog looking back at the glass (up trajectory), there were two distinct possibilities:
1. the State Road (from a passing vehicle - more than likely a truck = tall vs. passenger car = too short)
2. the neighborhood to the East beyond another commercial business (La Petite Academy for pre-schoolers).  Lobbing one in for no apparent reason.  Sure hope the pre-school kids weren't trying to tell us something.

Don't know if there were any reported "shots fired" that night.

Offline Ladobe

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As brother AtlLaw suggested, it would be easy enough for the forensics lab to plot with a high degree of certainty.    Whether they would make the effort or not considering how minor the outcome was remains to be seen.

No idea how far away the highway/other business you mentioned are, but IMO if it was a whimpy 380, it wouldn't carry much distance without lobbing it.   It also wouldn't effect much damage from distance having lost much of its energy.   
Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus

Offline Robert357

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As brother AtlLaw suggested, it would be easy enough for the forensics lab to plot with a high degree of certainty.    Whether they would make the effort or not considering how minor the outcome was remains to be seen.

No idea how far away the highway/other business you mentioned are, but IMO if it was a whimpy 380, it wouldn't carry much distance without lobbing it.   It also wouldn't effect much damage from distance having lost much of its energy.   
First, I want to express my concern for the person and his family that found a bullet in their home.  That is a very scary thing and you have every right to be concerned and want to figure out who endangered your family. 

Unless one really "knows" the cartridge, I think that an exact trajectory calculation would be very difficult, because you would literally need to calculate dozens of them.

The statement was that it looked like a "380."   Unless the bullet was very light, like a 65 to 75 grain bullet, it could have been a variety of different cartridges.   

The .380 Auto cartridges is really a 9mm bullet, with a diameter of .355 to .357 typically depending upon if it is jacketed or cast lead.  The 9mm Luger or 9x19 is also a 9mm bullet.  There are a bunch of other "9mm" cartridges, but none are very common.  I can purchase commercial ammo 9mm Luger and .380 ammo with very similar bullet weights close to 95 to 100 grains.  Since the bullet mushroomed and struck something, it may have lost some weight.  There are probably dozens of 9mm bullets from different manufactures for a given bullet weight, finding the right one might or might not be tricky.  The 9mm and .380 Auto will have different trajectories.  There are also +P loads and hand loads all with different trajectories.   Then there 38 Super (9mm) bullets and .357 Sig bullets, generally heavier, but sometimes can be hand loaded in light bullets and even faster velocities and flatter trajectories.

Now we move onto .38 Special, .38 Special +P, and .357 Magnum rounds that have bullets with diameters of about .357 to .359 inches.  They all have different trajectories and diameters fairly close to each other and the 9mm bullet.

Now if the bullet can be clearly identified as say a Remington .380 Auto bullet, or as a 9mm magnum bullet of a certain manufacture, and one assumes that it is a commercially loaded ammo, then one could go to published data on the factory loaded ammo from an assumed barrel length or firearm and then calculate a trajectory.   One would also need to recognize that there significant difference in the trajectory of a .380 Auto fired from my KelTec P3AT or from my Husquavarna Model 1907, which had a bushing installed when imported to convert if from 9mm Browning Long to 9mm Browning Kurtz (i.e. to .380 Auto).  So even if you figure out the bullet assuming a factory load, the firearm might change the trajectory. 

Now we can talk about air temperature, wind, and a host of other variables to change things even more.

The flip side of this is that the points you are interested in zeroing in on, say a close road and a far away daycare center, may or may not be distant enough that only one location might agree with most of the various "probably" trajectories.   

You might go to your local library on see if they have a copy of Volume II of the Hornady Reloading manual, it has ballistic tables for just about every bullet and will allow you to try your hand at a few different hypothesizes.   From doing several such calculations you may get a pretty good indication of the general area and you can turn that over to the police.   They have a good website that can give you some of the basics you would want to consider.  http://www.hornady.com/ballistics/external.php

The CSI TV shows are interesting, but I think the science they showcase is a little more complex than they make things out to be for the audience.

Offline Lone Star

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First, I want to express my concern for the person and his family that found a bullet in their home.

It was actually found in the OP's officeplace, but it's still a bad thing.  I assume no one was in the office on the night it was fired.

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The statement was that it looked like a "380."   Unless the bullet was very light, like a 65 to 75 grain bullet, it could have been a variety of different cartridges....

If the person who called it a ".380" knew cartridges it could have been an accurate guess.  A fully-jacketed bullet would pretty much rule out a revolver round.  A .380 is normally loaded with a short 90-95 grain FMJ bullet, so if it was a 90 grain FMJ then the cartridge was probably a .380 or a 9mm Makarov.   If it was an expanding bullet, or a heavier one, then who knows without more info.



.

Offline AtlLaw

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The CSI TV shows are interesting, but I think the science they showcase is a little more complex than they make things out to be for the audience.

More complex and also, a great deal of the technology they show is non-existent!   At least according to the GBI.  Trouble is, juries believe the crap they see on TV!   ::) 
Richard
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Offline Robert357

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 If it was an expanding bullet, or a heavier one, then who knows without more info..

Well said.  Some light weight 9mm jacketed Luger factory ammo (many more hand load options) from the MidwayUSA website:

  • Cor-Bon Self-Defense Ammunition 9mm Luger +P 90 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point Box of 20  Product #: 167332
  • Magtech Sport Ammunition 9mm Luger 95 Grain Jacketed Soft Point Box of 50 Product #:  815285
  • Federal Premium Personal Defense Low Recoil Ammunition 9mm Luger 105 Grain Expanding Full Metal Jacket Box of 20 Product #: 415332



Offline gypsyman

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Land Owner, glad to hear that nobody was hurt. As far as finding out where it came from, good luck. Don't think the PD is going to spend many man hours trying to find out where it came from, if nody was hurt or killed. They'll put it in the property room, where it will sit for the next 20 years.
You did mention that there is a highway outside where you work. Well, here is my wild arsed assumption. Take a look out towards the highway, and visualize the general direction that the bullet might have come from. Is there a speed sign, stop sign, deer crossing sign,whatever, along side the road. Don't know what the kids are like in Florida,(that means any male below the age of 25, especially if alcohol might have been involved!!)But around here in Ohio, stop signs,deer crossing signs,etc., seem to be targets and fair game. Could it have been some ''kids'', trying out daddy's gun. Or possibly somebody just turned 21, bought a new 9mm, and had to try it out. Any local gang bangers in the area. Maybe they were out getting in some target practice in before the next drive by they had planned. Wonder where they got their ammo? Wonder if the dealer had any primers? Sorry, caught myself speculating again.
Again, glad to hear nody was hurt. Good luck! gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline Camba

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This is my wild guess:

1.  The bullet hit a book and made a dent and bounced off (no penetration)
2.  The bullet was deformed (mushroomed?)
3.  The bullet is from a .380 cal (HP, FMJ?)
Then, my wild guess conclusion, given the above data is:

Since the bullet is already deformed (if it would had deformed in the book, it would had had enough energy to make considerable damage to it), the shot could had been a target practice ricochet from any of your neighbors.  This could mean any degree of possible ricochets.  Anywhere from the bullet coming back towards the shooter to any other angle possible.  Your shooter is within 30 to 100 yards from your home.

Camba

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Interesting speculations guys. The north to south highway is 4 lanes with a suicide lane (either direction turning lane) in between.  The nearest lane of the highway is about 85 feet to the East from the East face of the building. 

There are no roadside signs.  There are roadside telephone poles.  The path of the bullet from indented catalog back through the hole in the glass tends to indicate
a.) someone in the far northbound lane (about 121'), or
b.) someone southbound shooting to the west northwest back toward the building (about 88') on a drive by, or
c.) someone in a neighborhood 200 to 300 yards to the East playing with Dad's gun(?). 

There were no measurements taken by LEOs.  No one hurt.  Randon act of violence at this time.  New door glass within the hour and most was forgotten (by some).  Local High School graduation was last night.  Pre-grad prank gone bad?  Too many possibilities.  Just another head scratcher...

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Interesting speculations guys. The north to south highway is 4 lanes with a suicide lane (either direction turning lane) in between.  The nearest lane of the highway is about 85 feet to the East from the East face of the building. 

There are no roadside signs.  There are roadside telephone poles.  The path of the bullet from indented catalog back through the hole in the glass tends to indicate
a.) someone in the far northbound lane (about 121'), or
b.) someone southbound shooting to the west northwest back toward the building (about 88') on a drive by, or
c.) someone in a neighborhood 200 to 300 yards to the East playing with Dad's gun(?). 

There were no measurements taken by LEOs.  No one was hurt.  The building was unoccupied.  It's a random act of violence at this time.  New door glass within the hour and most was forgotten (by some). 

Local High School graduation was last night.  Pre-grad prank gone bad?  Too many possibilities.  Just another head scratcher...

Offline beerbelly

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AtlLaw, it seems that today if you can get yourself declared an expert at some phony technology, you can make mega bucks testifying for the state.
 I have seen where a few guys have been taken of death row and set free when DNA said that the bite mark evidence was plain BS!  I don't trust any of their so called scientific evidence.   I think if the DNA tester wants it to be you, iy will be you.
                              Beerbelly

Offline Savage

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Regardless of what you see on TV, there is no way anyone can say with certainty where the bullet was launched from. There are wayyyyyyyyyyy too many variables. Distance, elevation, velocity, deflection, just to name a few that this country boy can think of. The police made a report, that's about the end of it for them. I'm sure they have other more important things to do. Minimum property damage, no injury, and no proof of criminal intent. I'm sure your insurance company will repair the damages. Just lucky no one was in the office at the time.
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline mechanic

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We were shooting at a slab of steel hung in a tree one day at the far side of a pasture.  We had put away the rifles and was picking up the gear, and just for kicks, I pulled my little Beretta 380 and fired off 3 quick shots, just pointing high and letting loose.  One of them hit.  The steel was 350 yds away.  Would it have penetrated plate glass?  Beats me.  But bullets can go a long long way on the right launch angle.  Farther than we would imagine sometimes.
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline MZ5

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Very sorry to hear of this incident.

In terms of the 'reverse ballistics' question, the military regularly does precisely this (and astonishingly quickly at that) to zero enemy artillery and such.  Whether the PD there can and/or will is quite another question.  My guess is that they won't, and probably that they can't, but I don't know.

I hope this does not happen to you again.

Offline SHOOTALL

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I had a 22 LR bullet hit and stick to my windshield on I 95 . Didn't crack the glass so it had to have come from long away . We get several cars shot into around here every year . Petersburg Va. which is a few miles south of Richmond is setting up some new equipment that will locate gun shots . It consist of listing post around the area connected to a computer . It is supposed to be fast in locating the location of the shot . That along with the cameras located on the highways is supposed to help catch the shooters . Don't have a clue if it works yet .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Savage

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MZ5,
Not saying some pseudo expert couldn't come up with a SWAG on the trajectory of the bullet. And who would be qualified to disagree? Doubt that the local LEO have the time or resources to make this incident a priority.
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,