Old Huntsman Help

[Jeff H]

I have a "AL" prefix Huntsman, which I believe to be of 1973 manufacture - from what I gathered on the FAQ.  It has a screw-in breach plug, which I thought was the later version and I thought they started making these in 1973, so, I guess I am not certain on the vintage - exactly.

When I got it, the action would not open fully because the firing pin was stuck in the forward position.  After an application of one part "FreeAll" and one part optimism, I discovered the spring was not broken, as the pin started to move (reasonably) freely.

Not quite home yet, as the action would still not open without holding the hammer partially cocked to allow the firing pin to retract fully.  Did some careful feeling and close peering through the hammer slot while actuating the hammer, but no sighn of a half-cock or "safety notch."

More optimism and some punches should reveal an entirely gunked over half-cock notch, which I would clean out and be able to use.  No dice.  What I found was a perfectly formed, and apparently unused, half-cock notch, as there appeared to be no bluing rubbed off from use - and this gun HAD been used.

I taped the reciever's right side, cut the two pin holes for the trigger and hammer and set the hammer and trigger up with the pins as a make-shift jig.  Using thumbs and forefingers as hammer and trigger springs, I found that the trigger would indeed engage the half-cock notch.  When I turned the action and viewed it from the top, with the sear engaged in the half-cock notch, the hammer was farther forward than the hammer slot, indicating that I would never have engaged it even with the hammer resting against the front of the slot, let alone with the back of the firing pin protruding.

The firing pin appears to be correct, factory-made and does not appear to be interchangeable with any other firing pin that would work in any other H&R (Rifle or SG), so it protrudes sufficiently on either end, depending on whether the hammer is cocked or not, and does not appear to be overly long on either end.  A few thousandths would not make a difference on this particular problelm.

So, my question is, what the........

One thing that comes to mind is that maybe I have a trigger that has been shortened on the sear end - considerably.  The sear did show evidence that it was "tweaked" but the tip geometry looked reasonably correct and straight, which I would not expect of someone who shortened one enough to cause such a timing issue.  My mind wants to reach back to a day when one had a deer in the sights of this old piece, started squeezing, kept squeezing and broke the tip off in the safety notch because he had forgotten to cock the gun.

Anyone have a picture of an older Huntsman hammer and trigger?

Thanks for listening.

Jeff H

[Walleye Magnet]

troy5775 posted pictures of old and new style triggers and hammers in the NEF/H&R Classifieds sections.  I believe they are on page two.   

[Jeff H]

Walleye Magnet, good eye and thank you!
I saw those and the "old style" looks like what  I would think mine SHOULD look like.
The difference is that the half-cock cut is higher up on mine and a mere slit compared to the one in the pic.
Mine looks "factory" other wise but doesn't actually work in my gun.

[Jeff H]

It is also apparent that the "tweak" on the trigger is not factory.  Seems someone may have tried to make an original trigger fit the replacement (and incorrect) hammer.  In any case, not safe and not servicable as-is.

This photo shows engagement of the sear.  Almost looks more like what a half-cock engagement should.  This would be a very hard trigger pull with this geometry.


Here, we see "engagement" (wich is more like a sear engagement) of the half-cock notch, which it will not even accomplish when mounted in the reciever, as indicated by the next photo.


The relationship between the hammer position (when engaged in the half-cock notch) and the front of the hammer slot.  This does not even account for the rear firing pin protrusion.  The half-cock notch cannot even be engaged with the hammer/trigger mounted in the slot and the hammer rests on the firing pin (pushing it part way into the nipple chamber) when not cocked.


Even without having one of these for comparison, or having ever had an H&R apart, it is clear to me that this is wrong - very wrong.  The hammer/trigger set shown by Walleye Magnet looks like I would expect would work in place of these incorrect/cobbled parts.

Any other input would be appreciated greatly.  The clue from Walleye Magnet made me feel a lot better about what things should have really looked like.  Maybe if someone recognizes this hammer and can ID it, I would feel better about posting on the WTB sub-forum.  Quite a disappointment, but by the time I got a chance to dig into it, it had been "mine" for several days and I have already invested a lot of time cleaning hardened gunk out of everything and scrubbing rust feathers from the bore.  Too far in to turn back so I will be looking for some parts.  Anyone with said parts, and willing to part with them, feel free to PM me.  Had I got this at a yard sale for $50, I wouldn't feel so bad, but...

Jeff H

[PHATINJUN]

Don't give up on her to fast they are a blast of fun...whats the caliber? Kurt

[trotterlg]

OK, I have one and this is how they work.  They do not have a half cock position.  The hammer will be stopped slightly forward of it's resting position if the trigger is not pulled back.  The hammer is a rebounding type, so it rests slightly off the firing pin.  On mine, the hammer can be pushed only slightly forward from rest if the trigger is not pulled.  If the hammer is pushed forward engaging the trigger, the trigger can be pulled which will let the hammer move forward into the firing position.  I think yours is probably working like it should.  Larry

[Jeff H]

Kurt,
.58, and I don't intend to give up but am a tad frustrated that I finally HAVE one and can't use it - especially THIS weekend.  Thanks for the encouragement.

Larry,
I am glad you chimed in.  I almost PM'd you because I have seen some of the work you are doing.  Still kicking self over missing that 32-20 barrel.   What an appropriate cartridge for the old H&R design.

.......They do not have a half cock position.  The hammer will be stopped slightly forward of it's resting position if the trigger is not pulled back.  The hammer is a rebounding type, so it rests slightly off the firing pin........  Larry

"Rebounding hammer" is what I originally thought, but my hammer lays forward against the firing pin and keeps the firing pin pushed into the nipple chamber.  That led me to believe there must be a half-cock notch to keep the hammer off the firing pin or that whatever makes the hammer rebound was gunked up enough that it was not allowing the spring that KEEPS the hammer off the firing pin OFF the firing pin.  There was (understandably) plenty of crud keeping things from moving freely but, after cleaning, the hammer still rests on the firing pin.  However, what you are saying makes sense, and that notch at the top should be the one that prevents the hammer from being pushed forward without the trigger being pulled but mine doesn't seem to be doing that.  With this insight, I will "dry-assemble" and try it again. I will study the whole works and determine what makes the hammer rebound and see if there is something gone wrong there.

Larry, looking at my pics, what do you make of that sear nose and sear notch?  Do they appear correct to you?  If that sear nose were 1/16" longer, it would actually be able to engage that top notch and the rear of the hammer slot would still leave room for the hammer to be farther back when fully cocked.  Not to question your previous statement, just wondering about that rather positive engagement of the sear.

I REALLY appreciate you guys taking a few minuutes to help me out with this.  If this were an old Mauser or a Ruger single action, I would be in my realm.  The action on this piece is very simple but I am not familiar with how each part should look, so I don't know if anything is amiss.  Maybe I will shoot this thing this weekend after all!

Thanks again for the help!

Jeff H

[trotterlg]

What appears to hold my hammer back is the firing pin spring.  If I hold the firing pin it, the hammer goes forward nearly to the pin and just sits ther with no tension on it either way.  This is slightly past the trigger stop notch.  I think you need to take out the firing pin and take a look at the spring you have.  Larry

[Jeff H]

.............I think you need to take out the firing pin and take a look at the spring you have.  Larry

Admittedly, the firing pin spring IS very light - light in compression load and lightweight in construction.  It is formed of .020" stock and appears to be stainless, which I found odd and may indicate it was sub'd at some time in the past, because there was not a touch of rust or tarnish on it and the whole firing pin well was full of a conglomeration of , well, something that looked like black and brown waxy cheese.

Good catch, Larry.  I will look at this further as well.

Thanks.

Jeff H

[trotterlg]

I have a bunch of springs, if you can tell me the diameter of it, I will send you a selection of different ones.  Larry

[Jeff H]

I have a bunch of springs, if you can tell me the diameter of it, I will send you a selection of different ones.  Larry

Larry - THANK YOU!  That is a grand gesture.
I put it all back together and the hammer keeps the pin pushed all the way forward.  Everything elses seems in order.  I will pop the pin back out and measure the spring if I can sneak out of something tomorrow.

Jeff H

[trotterlg]

My pin is .165, so you will need to find a spring that is about .170 to .175 ID.  I have some that are .183 ID but the OD is .241.  If that will work then I will send you a chunk of it and you can cut it to length.  It is medium stiff.  Larry

[Jeff H]

OK, I finally caught back up with this thing.
Thanks all for all the help and offers of parts (Larry) and the guys who sent me leads on parts they thought might be available, but the biggest help was talking it through.

I got a trigger from Numrich (GPC, or whatever they call it these days) and it was 1/16" longer, but the same dimensions in all other respects - except for a pin poking out one side.  I endeavored to make short work of that pin with a punch, hammer and backing block but that sucker was there to stay so the Dremel tool came out and the pin got shorter.

I installed the new trigger and checked everything out per Larry's description above and everything is now in order.  The trigger pull, although heavy, is a far cry better as well so it all shakes out to a useable .58 Huntsman. 

Thanks again guys