Real Black Powder vs The New Stuff

[iunderpressure]

How is Real black powder different from pyrodex or some of the other new stuff?  Is it anymore dangerous, or do you have to handle if differently?  Would it be bad to use a 209 primer with black powder?  I just have never used it.  I found a local place that carries it.  I thought about trying it and don't want to kill myself.  What do you use to clean it up?

Thanks for any insight.

[Semisane]

Be not concerned iunderpressure, real black powder is wonderful stuff.  I find it's more forgiving than the subs and often gives me better accuracy.  With equal volume loads, black powder will give you a little less velocity than will Pyrodex (unless it's Swiss black powder).  It's no more dangerous to handle than Pyrodex and has the advantage that it does not loose its "umph" with age.  Clean up is about the same as pyrodex.  Plain old water will do fine - add a little dish soap if you want.  As with Pyrodes, you should clean the gun well after shooting.  It's best to do it the same day, but you can run a very oily patch down the bore after shooting and hold off cleaning for a day or two if you want.  If you do that, then do use soapy water for the clean-up.  Be sure to oil the bore after cleaning, but make sure the bore is completely dry before running the oil patch down it.  You don't want to trap moisture in there.

[iunderpressure]

I'm not sure what the price is, but I think I need to try some black powder.  I was wondering about packing charges too hard or ultra sensitive to heat, like it you reload too quick.  I figured I was over looking things a bit. 

[zrifleman]

My experience with in-lines and traditional muzzleloaders using conicals and cast bullets is that every one of them were more accurate with blackpowder than substitute BP. BP cleans up as easy as any Sub and is less likely to rust later on. My custom Dale Storey full stock Hawken with a 1-34 twist barrel pushes a 460 gr cast bullet 1225 fps using only 80 grs of Goex 3 FG. That's good enough to kill any thing in North America.

[Casull]

BP cleans up as easy as any Sub and is less likely to rust later on.

Uhhhh, NO.  BP is more likely to rust.  It contains potassium nitrate, which is a salt, and would be considered corrosive.

[Swampman]

In caplocks, I can see no difference.  Cleaning is the same & should be completed asap.  I buy the subs at Walmart when hunting season is over.  It's a very cheap way to shoot more.

[Semisane]

BP cleans up as easy as any Sub and is less likely to rust later on.

Uhhhh, NO.  BP is more likely to rust.  It contains potassium nitrate, which is a salt, and would be considered corrosive.

My experience has been that Pyrodex is worse that black when it comes to rust. 

[zrifleman]

Casull---Whatever is in Pyrodex is more corrosive that BP. Even after the gun is properly cleaned it persists in rusting a blued steel barrel. I have fired countless thousand of rounds thru BPCR and muzzleloaders using BP and using basic cleaning and oiling no rust problems.

[JPShelton]

Real blackpowder differs from Pyrodex in that it ignites at lower temperature, producing more fouling per shot assuming equal volumes of powder are used.

In my opinion, that fouling is softer, easier and quicker to clean, and less corrosive by nature than that left behind by Pyrodex.  I think that real blackpowder has a definite advantage over the subs in terms of performance under really cold weather conditions or when the humidity is high, where I believe it provides more consistant, instantaneous, and reliable ignition. 

I don't think blackpowder is always more accurate than a sub.  With my own arms, I know this simply isn't true.  Using my 1:32 barrel to shoot conicals from my .50 Great Plains Rifle, Triple 7 delivered the tightest groups.  Let the temperature drop below freezing or the relative humidity top 80%, however, and it doesn't seem to perform as well.  It doesn't work well for me at all with patched balls from the 1:60 barrel.  My experience with my Pietta 1860 is similar.

Nothing works as well in my Pedersoli 12 bore as the real blackpowder deal.  Ignition is "right now" regardless of humidity or temperature.  When the shooting is over, the gun gets coated with Bore Butter in and out.  When I get home, a totally clean gun is only minutes away.  Dittos for my 1861.  It shoots the best groups with FFg Goex and .375 balls, which are usually what I am forced to shoot.  When I can get the better fitting .380 balls, FFFg Goex and Pyrodex P are about even.

When I weigh it all, the real stuff is pretty hard to beat because it offers consistant performance over a broad range of climatic extremes, has a long shelf life, and cleans up easily and quickly with water and a little Ivory soap, and its cheap if you happen to have a local source of supply. 

That said, I like using Pyrodex P and Triple 7 in both FFg and FFFg forms, too.  It kinda depends on what I am seeking to do and when.  The two that I don't have much use for are Pyrodex RS and American Pioneer because they just don't work well in my little battery of blackpowder arms.

YMMV, and all of that...

-JP

[necchi]

That said, I like using Pyrodex P and Triple 7 in both FFg and FFFg forms, too.  It kinda depends on what I am seeking to do and when.  The two that I don't have much use for are Pyrodex RS and American Pioneer because they just don't work well in my little battery of blackpowder arms.

Now that's sage advise ! And very similar to my experiance. I appreciate the "not a diehard fanatisism" of either true BP of Faux powders.
 I won't use pyrodex, as I've learned it just doesn't have the seasonal reliability, nor the power I need. My single shot pistols like Goex 2f as well as my 56 smoothy (shot only). My rifles have their best performance with T7's. I've tried T7 in ffg and fffg and the ffg seems to suit all of my needs. It's more expensive on the shelf, but cutting the loads by 15% as recommended more than makes up for the extra cost.
American Pioneer does have it's use. LAWN FERTILIZER!! That stuff is absolute cr@p!

[nw_hunter]

How is Real black powder different from pyrodex or some of the other new stuff?  Is it anymore dangerous, or do you have to handle if differently?  Would it be bad to use a 209 primer with black powder?  I just have never used it.  I found a local place that carries it.  I thought about trying it and don't want to kill myself.  What do you use to clean it up?

Thanks for any insight.

All powders are dangerous!
Never load directly from the can or powder horn. Use a powder measure, and keep the lid on the cans of powder.

Real blackpowder ignites at around 300 degrees. Pyrodex at around 700.
They both are used by the same volume instead of weight.Pyrodex being lighter than real powder. The 209 primer will work with both.

Over the years for different reasons I have gone to Blackpowder  and I use 3f for all my rifles.
I use about 10% less 3f than 2f.      80 grs of 3f = about 90 grs of 2f

[iunderpressure]

I was wondering at what temp the different powders ignited.  I always wondered if you could load too fast.  Somestime after shooting the barrel smokes for awhile. I always wondered if there could be a hot spot to ignite the fresh powder you pour down the barrel for your next shot.

I bought some BP today.

[Longknife 76]

Yes there could be a hot spot that could ignite the fresh charge!!!!!!! I was not present at this event but will tell you what hapened to a friend of mine. After shooting his 20 ga. smooth bore several times he began to reload again. He  measured and poured down a charge of powder, he then inserted a patched ball into the muzzle and placed the rod into the bore, when he rammed it down the charge ignited, blew the ramrod, and ball out the barrel and into the sky, luckily he did not have his hand cupped or any other body parts over the rod and all he received were a couple of scorched fingers!!!!!Synopsis, a hot spot was fanned by the rush of air caused by ramming the ball down and ignited the powder.... When I first got into muzzle-loading it was common practice to "blow down the barrel" after each shot. This would heat up and burn any hot embers in the barrel. I thought this was strange because I was taught to never point a gun at something you didn't want to shoot ESPECIALLY your HEAD!!! Now you will get in trouble at many shoots if you do this. One way to reduce the danger of this is to swab with a damp patch or get a short plastic tube to insert into the barrel to blow into, thereby blowing out the ember. Black powder cartridge shooters do this by inserting their "blow tube" into the breech. their warm humid breath  keeps the fowling soft for better accuracy...Ed

[Forestclimber]

I have a Knight Bighorn that I have shot 2F out of many times.  I clean it after every day of shooting.  The rifle looks almost unfired except around the priming area where I scratched it with the capper.  It will shoot holes in a 4 inch circle at 100 yards all day long.  It is scoped.  Rust is not a factor if you take care of the rifle.
If you know anyone going to Friendship, Indiana for the NMLRA shoot June 13 - 20, ask them to pick you up some 2F or 3F.

[iunderpressure]

I'm going to try to get up to Friendship this year.  It's not all that far from me.

[Two Bears]

Here is my take:

I have been using Goex 3F in my TC Encore for a few years now and love it !

With the INFLATED PRICES of the other powders these days I got tired of paying it and started buying Goex in bulk from Powder INC  and now have 25 + pounds of it that will last me for a couple years:)

Go ahead and try it, you will be surprised just how accurate your rifles are with using real black.

[nw_hunter]

Real blackpowder differs from Pyrodex in that it ignites at lower temperature, producing more fouling per shot assuming equal volumes of powder are used.

In my opinion, that fouling is softer, easier and quicker to clean, and less corrosive by nature than that left behind by Pyrodex.  I think that real blackpowder has a definite advantage over the subs in terms of performance under really cold weather conditions or when the humidity is high, where I believe it provides more consistant, instantaneous, and reliable ignition. 

I don't think blackpowder is always more accurate than a sub.  With my own arms, I know this simply isn't true.  Using my 1:32 barrel to shoot conicals from my .50 Great Plains Rifle, Triple 7 delivered the tightest groups.  Let the temperature drop below freezing or the relative humidity top 80%, however, and it doesn't seem to perform as well.  It doesn't work well for me at all with patched balls from the 1:60 barrel.  My experience with my Pietta 1860 is similar.

Nothing works as well in my Pedersoli 12 bore as the real blackpowder deal.  Ignition is "right now" regardless of humidity or temperature.  When the shooting is over, the gun gets coated with Bore Butter in and out.  When I get home, a totally clean gun is only minutes away.  Dittos for my 1861.  It shoots the best groups with FFg Goex and .375 balls, which are usually what I am forced to shoot.  When I can get the better fitting .380 balls, FFFg Goex and Pyrodex P are about even.

When I weigh it all, the real stuff is pretty hard to beat because it offers consistant performance over a broad range of climatic extremes, has a long shelf life, and cleans up easily and quickly with water and a little Ivory soap, and its cheap if you happen to have a local source of supply. 

That said, I like using Pyrodex P and Triple 7 in both FFg and FFFg forms, too.  It kinda depends on what I am seeking to do and when.  The two that I don't have much use for are Pyrodex RS and American Pioneer because they just don't work well in my little battery of blackpowder arms.

YMMV, and all of that...

-JP

JP,  You pretty much covered what I would have said

[JBlk]

Real black powder works well in either flint or percussion firearms.Most of the substitutes don't work very well in flintguns unless you use five to ten grains of real BP under a reduced charge of substitute powder.The Federal Government has made it almost impossible for dealers to stock and store real BP and the cost of the product has gone up to record levels.When you add the hazmat fee to the powder cost.Most shooters join a long rifle club and buy their powder in large quanties to be divided among the club members who participate in the purchase.I prefer real BP, but it is still necessary to throughly clean your weapons after use reguardless of the type of powder that you use.Our Constitution gives us the right to keep and bear arms but it doesn't say anything  about the ammo that it takes to use those arms.