243 vs 25/06

[coyotejoe]

No, not really. Bullets with higher ballistics coefficients better retain velocity and energy and are less subject to wind drift. A 100 grain spire point .243 will better retain its' velocity with far less wind deflection than a 500 grain .45 caliber roundnose, not even to mention a 240 grain .44 caliber. None of which has anything to do with "bucking brush".

[mcwoodduck]

I think the brush bucking myth has more to do with the round nose bullet design and nothing to do with what the bullet will do when it hits a twig or branch and more on the effect the heavy round nose bullet has on game. Round nose bullets tend to be heavy for caliber and have a lot of exposed lead to start the mushroom process.  I have shot a few deer with different bullet designs and in the woods I use a round nose heavy for caliber bullet as they tend to do a lot of damage and the deer do not go far if at all.  Similar hits with pointy bullets do not do ass much damage and the deer tend to run off a little.  This is where I think the bullet myth started.  the round nose bullet drops deer there with a large exit wound and the pointed bullets make smaller exit holes, especally at short ranges and allow deer to trot off a little lay down and die.  I think game is lost this way and "of couse there is no way I could have missed or not followed a blood trail so the pointy bullet must have deflected off of a twig or branch".

[SHOOTALL]

First i have never conducted a test . I have never had a bullet deflected off target while shooting thru brush while deer hunting . I have heard others say they have so it must happen to some extent . What i have seen in defensive shooting classes all imformation seem to say that bullets striking a hard surface tend to follow the surface at a very slight angle . So if being shot at in a parking lot laying down ain't a good idea . Makes you wonder how much off target it would make the shot . And i have shot both buck shot and pointed bullets that went thru. a branch and killed the deer .

[mcwoodduck]

Shootall,
I think the deflection of through or off of a branch twig or what have you in the woods is a matter of how far behind the obsticle the target is.
If the deer is right behind the branch 5 to 20 feet, and the bullet is knocked 5 degrees off track, heck even 15 degrees off track you will still probably get a hit.  If the deer is 30 yards or more behind the obstruction then ... Maybe not.
As far as bullets hitting hard objects I do know that they will follow the path of a brick or cinder block wall.  I have a friend that was a police officer in LA that shot a suspect that was poping out behind a corner and shooting and then ducking back.  He hold his beretta at an angle to the wall only exposing his hand and when he heard the suspect shoot he shot once.  Bullet traveled down the wall and hit the suspect in the chest.
I do not know what a bullet would do on pavement but I guess if Newton is correct a body in motion will stay in motion untill anothe force acts on it.  But with how uneven pavement is I would still get down.

[Coyote Hunter]

Heavier bullets retain velocity & energy better.  They also buck the wind better.

Once again you are wrong. 

Heavier bullets MAY retain velocity better and they MAY buck the wind better.  Or they MAY NOT, depending on the difference in weight, velocity and/or Ballistic Coefficient of the bullets in question.

[Swampman]

I didn't invent physics, but my bullets still obey the laws.

[Coyote Hunter]

I didn't invent physics, but my bullets still obey the laws.

Yes, your bullets obey the laws of physics.

That said, if you still think "Heavier bullets retain velocity & energy better.  They also buck the wind better." without qualification as to bullet weights, initial velocities or Ballistic Coefficients, then you clearly don't understand the physics involved. 

There are a great many combinations where lighter, faster bullets deliver more energy downrange with less drift than slower, heavier bullets.

[45-70.gov]

BC  goes up  with  wieght

both  weight  and shape  effect retained velocity

sorry  to spoil  your arguement

[efremtags]

this forum got off target....

25-06 is better all around caliber if you take dedicated varmint gun off the table. Accuracy is inherently very good.

As far as ballistics is concerned, sectional density is the best way to determine the ballistic capability of a round. The longer the round is relative to the diameter, the better it will fly. Speed is the key, as the faster it i driven, the less time wind has to play on the path, and the farther it will travel with less drop.

 Weight is the least important thing to consider regarding ballistics (all objects fall at the same rate, regardless of weight). A good example of this is the ultra long .223 rounds (Berger VLD 75+grain). This round is very ballisticaly efficient, but not that heavy.

Weight is important in terms of killing power as momentum is mass x velocity, so double the weight, you double the momentum, so it is harder to slow the round down (IE more penetration capability from shear force).

[mcwoodduck]

Wait.  you just said 25-06 but made the arguements for the 243.  Heavier, longer bullets fly better.  So a 100 or more grain bullet is going to be the same length as a 117 grain 257 bullet ( assuming the same bullet design) and the 100 grains can be shot same speed.   So long skinny bullet right?
Did I miss something?

[efremtags]

if trajectory was the only objective, maybe, but on game I'll take heavier large diameter bullets.

Also, a 25-06 will push  120gr as fast or faster than a 243 will push a 100gr.

[Coyote Hunter]

BC  goes up  with  weight

Not so fast.

Some B.C.s for the .30-30 ,in ascending order:
.252 = Nosler 170g RN
.255 = Speer 130g FNSP
.298 = Speer 150g FNSP

For the 6.5mm cartridges:
.283 = Hornady 160g RN
.358  and .365 = Hornady 95-100g V-Max and SP
.445 and .485 = Hornady 129g SP and SST
.465, .520 and .550 = Hornady 140g SP, SST and A-Max

For the 7mm’s”
.285 = Hornady 175g RN
.382 = Speer 175g Mag Tip
.400 = Speer 175g Trophy Bonded
.436 = Speer 175g Grand Slam
.468 = Speer 145g Match BT
.472 = Speer 145g BTSP
.485 = Nosler 140g BT
.493 = Nosler 150g BT
.504 = Speer 160g SP
.519 = Speer 160g BTSP
.531 = Nosler 160g AccuBond

Or how about this one:
.571 = Swift 130g 6.5mm Sirocco II

The heaviest of the bunch (175g) have the lowest BC, one of the lightest (130g) has the highest BC...

BC DOES NOT necessarily go up with weight – it may or may not depending on other factors.

both  weight  and shape  effect retained velocity

My point exactly.  Weight alone does not determine BC.

sorry  to spoil  your arguement

It isn’t my argument that got spoiled...

[Coyote Hunter]

this forum got off target....

25-06 is better all around caliber if you take dedicated varmint gun off the table. Accuracy is inherently very good.

 Not necessarily so.  A .243 Win is a very capable antelope and deer cartridge.  But there are deer and there are DEER and there is the great plains of the west and the swamps and dense timber of the east.  There are people who are not affected by the recoil levels of either one and there are people with shoulder injuries for whom even the .243 recoil is painful.  There are adults for whom a full size rifle is not a problem and youngsters with short arms and small stature who benefit from a smaller .243 Win.

“Best” is a qualitative judgment, and something you can only judge for yourself.  Unless you’re another Swampgas.

As far as ballistics is concerned, sectional density is the best way to determine the ballistic capability of a round. The longer the round is relative to the diameter, the better it will fly.

Sectional density has far less to do with the Ballistic Coefficient of a bullet than does the profile.  Consider a .308” Nosler 170g RN with a BC of .252 and SD of .256, then consider a 6.5mm Nosler 125g Partition, BC .449 and SD .256.  Same SD’s but the lighter bullet will fly flatter for any given velocity.
 

   
Speed is the key, as the faster it i driven, the less time wind has to play on the path, and the farther it will travel with less drop.

Wrong  – doesn’t anyone do the math any more before making their claims???

Consider the 6.5mm 130g Swift Scirocco II, BC .517, at 2500fps and a .308” 165g Nosler Partition, BC .410, running 3000fps.  The faster bullet has less wind drift per your claim, but reality is very different. 

In fact, at all ranges past 40 yards the much slower 6.5mm bullet has less wind drift.  At 1000 yards the 6.5mm drifts 84.4” per the calculator, while the much faster .308” bullet drifts 101.6”.

Weight is the least important thing to consider regarding ballistics (all objects fall at the same rate, regardless of weight). A good example of this is the ultra long .223 rounds (Berger VLD 75+grain). This round is very ballisticaly efficient, but not that heavy.

While weight is not the only factor it is an important one.  Weight, diameter and shape work together to determine the Ballistic Coefficient.  The bullets you mention run .453 to .552 for BC’s – pretty good but they can’t match the .6’s and .7’s that heavier bullets can reach, let alone the BC of 1.050 reached by the Hornady .50BMG A-Max.

Weight is important in terms of killing power as momentum is mass x velocity, so double the weight, you double the momentum, so it is harder to slow the round down (IE more penetration capability from shear force).

Once again your argument is not entirely correct. Terminal performance is highly dependent on bullet performance.  A heavy bullet that expands quickly will often slow down much more quickly – and penetrate less -  than a smaller, lighter bullet that expands slowly or not at all.

By the way, double the velocity and leave the mass alone and you also double momentum.


 

[the lone gunman]

Go here and compare, very little diff between the 2.

http://www.remington.com/Products/Ammunition/Ballistics/

note 243 100gr vs 120gr 25/06

[mjbgalt]

check out the 90 grain swift scirrocco...when compared to the .25-06, it outdoes it by a lot with the 100 grain bullet. almost all because of better b/c and s/d.

-Matt

[hunt-m-up]

Looks like a lot of "killing" animals on paper here. How about real world performance?
I only owned a 25-06 for a short while and no 243, but did own it's near twin, a 6MM, also for only a short period. Although not bad, recoil from the 06 was noticeably greater to me, one of the reasons I sold it and bought a .270. If it's going to bark, then it needs to have an appropriate bite.
If I wanted a gun I could coyote hunt with 90-95% of the time and hunt deer once in awhile, it would be the .243, if the scenario were reversed I would still go .270
(Been looking at a Tikka in 25-06 and think I just talked myself out of it)

[efremtags]

C hunter,

I can do the math. First thing is I am basing my calcs on apples to apples. You can skew #s to make any argument with apples to oranges comparisons.

First off, SD and BC are intertwined, SD is easier for me to visualize and make comparisons.

If you take a bullet and change nothing but velocity, it will have a great impact on trajectory. Comparing a 6.5mm to a 308 is apples to oranges. The same bullet driven faster will have a better trajectory and less drift.
If you take 2 bullets of different weight with same BC, and drive them to the same speed, they will have near identical trajectory and drift.
If you take 2 bullets of different caliber and same SD, of course they will have different BC, they are different shapes. If you take the same caliber and change the SD, the BC will be better for the higher SD typically since SD and BC are related. (I am sure there is 1 exception, but generally not).
It is a lot easier to double weight than to double velocity. I can easily go from 85 to 170grain bullet, but you can not easily go from 3000fps - 6000fps.
My example of 223 was to illustrate how a puny, light 22 can have serious ballistics. Comparing to 50bmg is apples and oranges.  I may have oversimplified my statement. Weight is important relative to the same caliber as the longer bullet is generally heavier.
In terms of hunting killing power, weight is rarely a disadvantage. A  small caliber has to deform to provide adequate wound channel and tissue damage. Take two similar style bullets at the same speed, the heavier round typically perform better. your comparison of has a lot of implications of mismatch, again apples and oranges.

Second, learn to read, never said 25-06 is best, qualified it as better for larger than varmints. Look at the top 10 bullets sold, 223 and 243 are there, the rest are all over 270 caliber. 25-06 is closer in bullet selection and performance to the other 8 selections than the 243.

You must have been a politican in a past life the way you present mismatched facts to make a case.

[Coyote Hunter]

C hunter,

I can do the math. First thing is I am basing my calcs on apples to apples. You can skew #s to make any argument with apples to oranges comparisons.

I didn’t skew any numbers.  You stated flatly that “25-06 is better all around caliber if you take dedicated varmint gun off the table.”  Not necessarily so, depending on individual circumstances and priorities.  Best for you perhaps, not everyone.

You also stated “As far as ballistics is concerned, sectional density is the best way to determine the ballistic capability of a round. The longer the round is relative to the diameter, the better it will fly.”  Neither of these statements are absolutely true, although they may be true in many or even most cases.  As far as I’m concerned, Ballistic Coefficient is a much better property to use in determining how a bullet will fly.  Just about everyone agrees as that is what is used to calculate downrange ballistics by every calculator I know. 

Then you stated “Speed is the key, as the faster it i driven, the less time wind has to play on the path, and the farther it will travel with less drop.”  This is simply not true, even within a specific caliber or for a specific cartridge – the Ballistic Coefficients of the bullets play a big part and there are many comparisons that can be made where the slower bullet will have less wind drift and drop.

You also stated “Weight is the least important thing to consider regarding ballistics (all objects fall at the same rate, regardless of weight).”  Again, not necessarily true.  All other factors being equal, the heavier bullet will have less drift and more retained velocity and energy.  And yes, although it will drop as fast as a lighter bullet of similar profile, caliber and muzzle velocity, the drop at any given range will be less because the heavier bullet will get there first (because it will have a higher BC and retained velocity).

First off, SD and BC are intertwined, SD is easier for me to visualize and make comparisons.

It is common for bullets of identical caliber and weight to have very different Balllistic Coefficients.  Their SD will be identical.

If you take a bullet and change nothing but velocity, it will have a great impact on trajectory. Comparing a 6.5mm to a 308 is apples to oranges. The same bullet driven faster will have a better trajectory and less drift.
If you take 2 bullets of different weight with same BC, and drive them to the same speed, they will have near identical trajectory and drift.
If you take 2 bullets of different caliber and same SD, of course they will have different BC, they are different shapes. If you take the same caliber and change the SD, the BC will be better for the higher SD typically since SD and BC are related. (I am sure there is 1 exception, but generally not).
It is a lot easier to double weight than to double velocity. I can easily go from 85 to 170grain bullet, but you can not easily go from 3000fps - 6000fps.
My example of 223 was to illustrate how a puny, light 22 can have serious ballistics. Comparing to 50bmg is apples and oranges.  I may have oversimplified my statement. Weight is important relative to the same caliber as the longer bullet is generally heavier.
In terms of hunting killing power, weight is rarely a disadvantage. A  small caliber has to deform to provide adequate wound channel and tissue damage. Take two similar style bullets at the same speed, the heavier round typically perform better. your comparison of has a lot of implications of mismatch, again apples and oranges.

Now you are adding qualifications that you failed to add before. 

By the way, your statement above that “If you take 2 bullets of different caliber and same SD, of course they will have different BC,...” is not necessarily true.  They may, they may not.  You ignore the effect bullet profile plays in determining BC, which is very often greater than the effect of SD.

Second, learn to read, never said 25-06 is best, qualified it as better for larger than varmints. Look at the top 10 bullets sold, 223 and 243 are there, the rest are all over 270 caliber. 25-06 is closer in bullet selection and performance to the other 8 selections than the 243.

 I understood what you wrote and simply disagree.  The .25-06 might be better for you, it is not necessarily better for everyone, for reasons I cited.  It is not me that needs to learn to read.

You must have been a politican in a past life the way you present mismatched facts to make a case.

You made flat statements without qualification.  Now, when your flat statements have been proven wrong you want to add qualifications.  Just like a politician.

[coyotejoe]

 "You also stated “Weight is the least important thing to consider regarding ballistics (all objects fall at the same rate, regardless of weight).”  Again, not necessarily true.  All other factors being equal, the heavier bullet will have less drift and more retained velocity and energy.  And yes, although it will drop as fast as a lighter bullet of similar profile, caliber and muzzle velocity, the drop at any given range will be less because the heavier bullet will get there first (because it will have a higher BC and retained velocity"

"All other factors" will never be equal. For any given cartridge the heavier bullet will have a lower muzzle velocity. The lighter and faster bullet may indeed slow down more quickly but within practical hunting ranges the heavier bullet will never "catch up". Barring extreme examples the lighter and faster bullet will shoot flatter out to 500 yards or so. Also, in any given caliber, the heaviest available bullets are generally roundnose and thus have rather poor BCs compared to the next step down in weight.
 Now if you compare the 150 grain spitepoint '06 to a 200 grain spirepoint at the same muzzle velocity from a .30 caliber magnum, then indeed the heavier bullet would shoot flatter but if you loaded the magnum with a 150 it would shoot even flatter still out to 500 yards.

[Coyote Hunter]

 "You also stated “Weight is the least important thing to consider regarding ballistics (all objects fall at the same rate, regardless of weight).”  Again, not necessarily true.  All other factors being equal, the heavier bullet will have less drift and more retained velocity and energy.  And yes, although it will drop as fast as a lighter bullet of similar profile, caliber and muzzle velocity, the drop at any given range will be less because the heavier bullet will get there first (because it will have a higher BC and retained velocity"

"All other factors" will never be equal. For any given cartridge the heavier bullet will have a lower muzzle velocity. The lighter and faster bullet may indeed slow down more quickly but within practical hunting ranges the heavier bullet will never "catch up". Barring extreme examples the lighter and faster bullet will shoot flatter out to 500 yards or so. Also, in any given caliber, the heaviest available bullets are generally roundnose and thus have rather poor BCs compared to the next step down in weight.
 

All other factors (bullet velocity, diameter, basic profile, etc.) are often equal enough that weight becomes the determining factor as increasing weight then increases BC.

Moreover, heavier bullets do not always have lower velocities.  

Here’s a comparison of some Remington .30-06 loads for you:
2660fps, 125g PSP Core-Lokt, Managed Recoil
2910fps, 150g PSP Core-Lokt
2800fps, 165g PSP Core-Lokt
2700fps, 180g PSP Core-Lokt

Or this comparison between Remington and Federal?
2800fps, 165g PSP Core-Lokt, Remington
2880fps, 180g Trophy Bonded Tip, Federal

Or this comparison of Remington .300 RUM loads?
2910fps, 150g PSP Core-Lokt, Remington
2980fps, 180g Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded, Remington
3032fps, 200g A-Frame PSP, Remington



Or this comparison for the .45-70?
1167fps, 350g hardcast, my handloads
1330fps, 405g Soft Point, Remington
1625fps, 500g FMJ-FN, Buffalo Bore
1810fps, 300g Jacketed HP, Remington
1812fps, 460g hardcast, my handloads
1850fps, 300g Speer Uni-Cor HP, Federal
1880fps, 300g JHP, Winchester
1925fps, 430g LBT-LFN, Buffalo Bore
2000fps, 405g JFN, Buffalo Bore
2100fps, 350g JFM, Buffalo Bore
2300fps, 300g JHP, Buffalo Bore

Granted, the Buffalo Bore 300g runs the fastest in this list, but there are plenty of examples in that list that prove my point that the heavier bullet is not always the slowest.  

Of course we could always compare a .44 Mag to a .444, a .45-70 to a .458 Win Mag, a .308 Win to a .30-06 or .300 Win Mag or .300 RUM and so on to find many more cases where the heavier bullet is not necessarily slower.

If you are going to make a statement and claim it as fact you need to define any qualifying criteria when doing so, not after the fact.

Now if you compare the 150 grain spitepoint '06 to a 200 grain spirepoint at the same muzzle velocity from a .30 caliber magnum, then indeed the heavier bullet would shoot flatter but if you loaded the magnum with a 150 it would shoot even flatter still out to 500 yards.

Again, not necessarily.  Kind of depends on the velocity at which each bullet is fired and their respective BCs, which you again fail to specify.