Author Topic: 257 roberts, new load-- as good as 25-06 -- maybe better (Read 6563 times)

fatercat · « **on:** May 26, 2009, 07:05:49 AM »

give a heads up about hodgdon hybrid 100. we loaded up some nosler partitions 120 gns and 45 gns of powder. in a new ruger hawkeye. cono at ave 2970--- 3/4" at 100 yds. no sign of pressure. i would not us it in older rifles.

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #1 on:** May 29, 2009, 05:49:26 PM »

Thanks for the heads up, I thought it looked like it might be a good one to try. I picked up a pound to try in the 257 and 7mm-08. DP

fatercat · « **Reply #2 on:** June 02, 2009, 10:02:24 AM »

with that load it puts it up to a 300 yard elk gun. 400yard deer gun.

Sweetwater · « **Reply #3 on:** June 02, 2009, 04:19:01 PM »

It was a 400 yard deer gun in 1952, in my Dad's hands, with 100gr Winchester Silvertips factory loads.

His story, not mine, I just share it. The 257Roberts has always been under rated.

Regards,
Sweetwater

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #4 on:** June 09, 2009, 03:06:16 AM »

"257 roberts, new load-- as good as 25-06 -- maybe better" ?

In terms of ballistics, no, it is not as good as a .25-06 and certainly not "better". A .25-06 with IMR7828 can crank a 120g bullet up past 3100fps and still be well under SAAMI limits. You cna't beat case capacity and the .25-06 has the greater capacity.

Not knocking the .257 Roberts in any way - my Ruger M77 in .257 Bob is my favorite rifle by a wide margin. I run 120g A-Frames at 2947fps with +P loads and brass.

Would not attempt that in older rifles, though.

fatercat · « **Reply #5 on:** June 10, 2009, 08:53:31 AM »

coyote hunter, not starting a fuss just a question. at the 2970 ave. fps with the 257 roberts with 45 gns. of powder. at what point(yards) would the 25-06 take over? not that the cost per load has ever used in any of my loads. just a thought.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #6 on:** June 10, 2009, 02:02:48 PM »

Quote from: fatercat on June 10, 2009, 08:53:31 AM

coyote hunter, not starting a fuss just a question. at the 2970 ave. fps with the 257 roberts with 45 gns. of powder. at what point(yards) would the 25-06 take over? not that the cost per load has ever used in any of my loads. just a thought.

Fatercat –

That’s a good question so I ran the numbers assuming a 120g A-Frame (BC .362) in both, at velocities of 2947fps for the Roberts and 3100fps for the .25-06.

Using a Max Point Blank Range zero for a target 6” in diameter:

.257 Roberts = 244 yd MPBR zero, 286 yd MPBR
.25-06 = 255 yd MPBR zero, 299 yd MPBR

2947fps:
.257 Roberts = muzzle
.25-06 = 60 yards

1500fpe:
.257 Roberts = 240 yards
.25-06 = 300 yards

1000fpe:
.257 Roberts = 445 yards
.25-06 = 505 yards

2000fps:
.257 Roberts = 415 yards
.25-06 = 475 yards

24” Drop:
.257 Roberts = 435 yards
.25-06 = 455 yards

400 Yards:
.257 Roberts = -17.7”, 2030fps, 1098fpe
.25-06 = -14.8”, 2153fps, 1235fpe

With these particular loads I would probably go 400 yards with the .257 Roberts for antelope and deer and 300 yards for elk (1338fpe). With the .25-06 I’d probably go 500 yards for antelope and deer and 350 or so for elk.

What is interesting (to me at least) is the .257 Roberts beats this .25-06 load at 500 yards (in drop, velocity and energy) with a 110 AccuBond running 3100fps.

More surprisingly, a 110g TTSX (assuming a BC of .380) running 3200fps from the Roberts beats the .25-06 A-Frame load at 500 yards in terms of drop and velocity and is only behind in energy by 57fpe.

I’ve run both the 100g TTSX and 110g AccuBond with excellent results on paper and over the chrono (getting slightly faster than the velocities shown) and have not decided which I will be hunting with this fall. Probably the TTSX.
.

saltydog · « **Reply #7 on:** June 11, 2009, 02:50:32 AM »

Wow - that is alot of H-100V - it would certainly be a max load with 4350. Are you using +P cases ? I agree the 257 Roberts is an un-appreciated senior citizen. The 243 WIN overshadowed it and factory loads were anemic at best which did not help the issue.

nomosendero · « **Reply #8 on:** June 11, 2009, 02:56:49 AM »

With my Sendero in 25-06, I had no trouble getting 3,200fps with a 120 gr Nos. Part. & now that it is a 25-06AI, 3,350fps is no problem, both velocities with RL25, a great powder for 25-06 & bigger 25 cal. cases as is retumbo. For the Wea, add a little more velocity. Like CH said, it's a case capacity thing.

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #9 on:** June 11, 2009, 04:51:54 AM »

nomosendero, I haven't tried Re 25 in my .25-06 with 115 grain Noslers. Do you use mag. primers with that load??? When I tried Re22 with the 115's accuracy was sour until I switched to Rem. mag. primers then the story changed for the better. How long is the barrel on your .25-06 Improved?

If I build another rifle for coyote shooting I have thought of that caliber. I really like the std. 25/06, thought of a bull barreled job with a 28 inch barrel for the Improved. I fooled with the .257 Wea. for many years, it seemed to be real sensitive to loads. Never got the accuracy out of any of them that I do with the .25-06 rifles.

nomosendero · « **Reply #10 on:** June 11, 2009, 08:01:17 AM »

Quote from: Wyo. Coyote Hunter on June 11, 2009, 04:51:54 AM

nomosendero, I haven't tried Re 25 in my .25-06 with 115 grain Noslers. Do you use mag. primers with that load??? When I tried Re22 with the 115's accuracy was sour until I switched to Rem. mag. primers then the story changed for the better. How long is the barrel on your .25-06 Improved? If I build another rifle for coyote shooting I have thought of that caliber. I really like the std. 25/06, thought of a bull barreled job with a 28 inch barrel for the Improved. I fooled with the .257 Wea. for many years, it seemed to be real sensitive to loads. Never got the accuracy out of any of them that I do with the .25-06 rifles.

1.Good question, yes I use CCI mag primers in this particular case. In most mag rifle loads I use Fed. 215/M, but in 25 cal. for some reason the CCI would do better.
2. My barrel is 26". Longer won't hurt a thing, shorter will.
3. My accuracy improved going to the AI, but I don't think it was merely because of the AI cartridge at all, but rather because the gunsmith used a very good Match Grade Reamer, he also re-crowned, skim bedded and trued-up the Receiver. It is now VERY accurate.

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #11 on:** June 11, 2009, 10:14:53 AM »

nomosendro, Thanks for the information. I have a 22-250 AI that has been my primary big .22 cal for the last few years. It seems more accurate than the regular .22-250 but that could be just luck also.

fatercat · « **Reply #12 on:** June 12, 2009, 10:33:18 AM »

Saltydog, go to hodgdon web sight- it listed i think 46 gns. for the 115 gn nosler. we lowered that to 45 gns using the 120 gn. nosler. would not quote a non-published load. shoots great with no signs of pressure.

41 mag · « **Reply #13 on:** June 12, 2009, 12:25:02 PM »

Haven't loaded it in anything but 100gr .243 loads, but can also give kudo's to Hybrid 100V as well. Good shooting powder, and looking forward to putting it through a couple of other calibers.

fatercat · « **Reply #14 on:** July 02, 2009, 03:46:52 AM »

hell, think i'll go poach me a 8X8 royal bull elk this fall with this load.

257 Shooter · « **Reply #15 on:** July 02, 2009, 11:24:29 AM »

Have you tired Hybrid 1000 with a 100grn Bullet? If so what velocity do you get? My Ruger in 257 Roberts really likes hughe amounts of H4831. 1/2 in at 100yds with Nosler Balistic Tips

BBF · « **Reply #16 on:** July 03, 2009, 06:29:24 AM »

All the holdover/drop stuff is great, now see how much drift you are going to get at those ranges with a wind gusting between 13.5 and 23.4 mph at an angle of 35 to 78 degrees. ......You get my drift??

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #17 on:** July 03, 2009, 12:20:33 PM »

Quote from: BBF on July 03, 2009, 06:29:24 AM

All the holdover/drop stuff is great, now see how much drift you are going to get at those ranges with a wind gusting between 13.5 and 23.4 mph at an angle of 35 to 78 degrees. ......You get my drift??

As with any other cartridge, you always have the option NOT to squeeze the trigger if conditions are not right.

I have a virgin Roberts that will be pushing 100g TTSX pretty darn fast and will have two elk tags and one deer tag in my pocket this fall. I'll hunt elk with a bigger cartridge initially but once the first one is down the Roberts will get carried. If I see another elk it would be very unheathy fr the elk to be within 350 yards, longer if things were perfect...

nomosendero · « **Reply #18 on:** July 03, 2009, 04:35:56 PM »

CH, I do get YOUR drift actually. We Always do have the option to hold our fire, whether 25 yards
or 600 yards.

BBF · « **Reply #19 on:** July 05, 2009, 08:04:30 AM »

I can't help but cringe at the thought of a 25 cal anything for elk but I do hope that whatever you use will give you a clean kill.

Sweetwater · « **Reply #20 on:** July 06, 2009, 07:36:11 PM »

I put down one elk with a cast bullet from a 94Win 32Spl. A lot of elk were taken years ago with the 250 Savage and other lesser cartridges. With the proper decision to hold fire or squezze the trigger, a bunch of the 25 's are very adequate.
It's the same old same old. Put the bullet where it needs to go. Then, it's cutting time...

Regards,
Sweetwater

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #21 on:** July 08, 2009, 08:22:55 AM »

Quote from: BBF on July 05, 2009, 08:04:30 AM

I can't help but cringe at the thought of a 25 cal anything for elk but I do hope that whatever you use will give you a clean kill.

BBF –

Your hesitance about the .25’s is understandable. I feel kind of the same way about the .24’s, but in the right hands they have been putting elk down effectively for many decades.

The keys are placement and bullet performance at the impact velocity. I prefer fast muzzle velocities and premium bullets. Although I’m moving toward the 100g TTSX in the Roberts, I’ve been shooting 115g TSX and 120g A-Frames. All shoot exceptionally well with little recoil and I have confidence all three will perform admirably.

Limiting the range to ensure adequate impact velocity will be necessary with the Roberts and I certainly won’t be taking shots I would easily take with the 7mm RM or .300 RM or, by a slimmer margin, the .30-06 or .308 Win. Still, something just shy of 2500fps/1400fpe at 300 yards seems entirely adequate – it is about 600fps faster than my .30-30 loads at 100 yards with a little more energy then my .30-30/170g Partition RN load at 100 yards, and few people claim that to be inadequate. At 400 yards its still 400fps faster with the same energy as the .30-30 load mentioned previously at 150 yards. Put another way, it’s the same energy my .44 Mag handgun loads have at the muzzle. Adequate, but certainly not overkill.

Blowtorch53 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 10, 2009, 06:36:20 AM »

Hey Coyote,

What ballistics program do you use and where can I get it?

Thanks,

DeWayne

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #23 on:** July 10, 2009, 12:35:03 PM »

Quote from: Blowtorch53 on July 10, 2009, 06:36:20 AM

Hey Coyote,

What ballistics program do you use and where can I get it?

Thanks,

DeWayne

DeWayne -

The one I use most often is “Point Blank", which is available FREE at www.huntingnut.com. It has a few quirks but is very easy to use once you get the hang of it. Only goes to 1,000 yards so I use “Ballistic” on my iPhone for greater ranges.

One of the things I really like about Point Blank is you can figure Maximum Point Blank Range and zero your rifle for it very easily – just enter the bullet BC, weight and velocity, change the scope height and altitude if desired, click the ‘Calculate PBR’ button, enter the diameter of the target (Height in inches of Kill Zone”) and click OK. I then check the calculated impact height at 100 yards and adjust the scope accordingly.

nomosendero · « **Reply #24 on:** July 10, 2009, 12:44:02 PM »

Quote from: BBF on July 05, 2009, 08:04:30 AM

I can't help but cringe at the thought of a 25 cal anything for elk but I do hope that whatever you use will give you a clean kill.

No need for a cringe at all as long as one understands what he uses & the range & shooting angles capabilities of the round used. The Bob would be fine with the right bullet, modest range for Elk-sized beasts & limit the angles
to the straight line penetration capabilites of said round. I know what the 115TSX will do & have used it a good deal. For me, I use a bigger gun for Elk, but I have to travel a ways & merely want to maximize my opportunities, it makes sense for me just like the Roberts makes sense for CH for his second tag.

BBF · « **Reply #25 on:** July 11, 2009, 06:25:41 AM »

I've never hunted elk and do not expect to in my remaining hunting years.
What do you consider adequate impact energy(ftlb) for elk?

I have shot several moose using a .243 Win( yes,I admit it) 30-06, 300 Win Mag, 35 Rem and 444 Marlin.

Only three moose stayed put after the first shot. Two from those were spine shots( .243 Win and 30-06) the last was from the 444 Marlin in the chest.

Sweetwater · « **Reply #26 on:** July 11, 2009, 10:00:12 AM »

Energy doesn't kill elk or anything else. Bullet type and placement is the whole key - and the shooter's capability with the combination. It kind of comes down to the shooter. Can the shooter put the bullet where it needs to go at the particular range and target size?

Just because I shot an elk with my own cast bullet out of a 32WSpl doesn't mean everyone else should go out and buy a 32WSpl and start casting bullets for elk season. It was adequate in my hands for that particular situation. There are a lot of shots I would pass up with this combination that are totally within the limits of my 8x57, 30-06, 6.5x55 and my 257Roberts. That elk still went in the freezer.

New powders are beathing new life into some of the older cartridges, especially those that are still being hampered by SAAMI specs from a different time. Maybe someone can explain the sanity in having diferrent pressure limits for cartridges of the same basic design, using the same basic brass, using the same basic action/rifle...Makes no sense at all to me. Case point: take a 264Win Mag and rechamber it to 6.5x55. All of a sudden you go from a high pressure limit to a mid pressure limit. It's the same rifle and same size exit hole and all modern brass, so WHY? Wandering a little off topic...

Regards,
Sweetwater

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #27 on:** July 11, 2009, 12:56:39 PM »

Quote from: Sweetwater on July 11, 2009, 10:00:12 AM

Energy doesn't kill elk or anything else. ...

Energy doesn't kill elk or anything else, but without energy transfer nothing gets killed.

I can shoot my .45-70 and penetrate 12 water jugs with a 350g hardcast @ 1100fps, barely doing anything but punching cailber-diameter holes in jugs 2-12.

Of I can blow a bunch of them to smithereens (as well as punching a hole in the supporting plywood under the lead jug and breaking the supporting sawhorse as well) with the same cartridge but a load with more energy.

More energy has its advantages...

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #28 on:** July 12, 2009, 04:13:32 AM »

Quote from: Sweetwater on July 11, 2009, 10:00:12 AM

… Maybe someone can explain the sanity in having diferrent pressure limits for cartridges of the same basic design, using the same basic brass, using the same basic action/rifle...Makes no sense at all to me. Case point: take a 264Win Mag and rechamber it to 6.5x55. All of a sudden you go from a high pressure limit to a mid pressure limit. It's the same rifle and same size exit hole and all modern brass, so WHY? Wandering a little off topic...

Regards,
Sweetwater

The answer lies not in the brass or the powders but in the age of the cartridge and the rifles that were chambered for it at the time the cartridge was introduced. The 257 Roberts, for example, inherited the pressure of its predecessor the 7x57. Many old Mausers were converted to .257 Roberts so the SAAMI pressure (45,000 CUP, 54,000 PSI) was held low even though modern rifles chambered for both can and often do handle higher-pressure cartridges (54,000 CUP, 65,000 PSI). SAAMI did standardize a .257 Roberts +P pressure (50,000 CUP, 54,000 PSI) in deference to modern firearms.

My .257 Roberts is my favorite rifle and I see no reason to hold pressures so low when the Ruger M77 long-action my Roberts is built on easily handles the .25-06 (63,000 PSI) and the .300 Win Mag (64,000 PSI).

Sweetwater · « **Reply #29 on:** July 14, 2009, 10:22:27 AM »

Quote from: Coyote Hunter on July 12, 2009, 04:13:32 AM

Quote from: Sweetwater on July 11, 2009, 10:00:12 AM
… Maybe someone can explain the sanity in having diferrent pressure limits for cartridges of the same basic design, using the same basic brass, using the same basic action/rifle...Makes no sense at all to me. Case point: take a 264Win Mag and rechamber it to 6.5x55. All of a sudden you go from a high pressure limit to a mid pressure limit. It's the same rifle and same size exit hole and all modern brass, so WHY? Wandering a little off topic...

Regards,
Sweetwater
The answer lies not in the brass or the powders but in the age of the cartridge and the rifles that were chambered for it at the time the cartridge was introduced. The 257 Roberts, for example, inherited the pressure of its predecessor the 7x57. Many old Mausers were converted to .257 Roberts so the SAAMI pressure (45,000 CUP, 54,000 PSI) was held low even though modern rifles chambered for both can and often do handle higher-pressure cartridges (54,000 CUP, 65,000 PSI). SAAMI did standardize a .257 Roberts +P pressure (50,000 CUP, 54,000 PSI) in deference to modern firearms.

My .257 Roberts is my favorite rifle and I see no reason to hold pressures so low when the Ruger M77 long-action my Roberts is built on easily handles the .25-06 (63,000 PSI) and the .300 Win Mag (64,000 PSI).

To which I totally agree. Couple that with the fact that no two manuals give the same load data and you have the basis for why I use my rifle as a "standard" and the manual as a "guide". I don't reload, I handload for the individuality of my rifle; which, based on reading your posts, appears to be your practice as well.

Thanks for the printed word for "why this is so" to my sanity blurb.

Regards,
Sweetwater