Historical "Long Shots"

[Two Bears]

What stories are out there that refer to long shot "kills" and the guns that made the shots possible?

Wasn'emember at there a long shot taken at the Adobe Wall that involved a Shiloh Sharps rifle? I rember a little of it, a couple pinned down scouts(?) and a few Indians out on a hill taunting the pinned scouts because they were out of range but one of the scouts had a Sharps and proceeded to pick the indians off with it and the distance was a very long range....I wish I could remember the whole story, any one know the whole story?

[Dee]

Billy Dixon is the man you speak of. He and about 27 other men, and one woman were TRESSPASSING buffalo hunters. They were on Kiowa, and Comanche land killing buffalo for the hides. There were a large number of Comanche there including famous Chief Quanah Parker.
Dixon actually SHOT INTO a group of 15 warriors sitting on horses together, and was not shooting at any particular warrior. I doubt he could have picked one out anyway. The range was 7/8s of a mile.
I have been to the spot which is now on private property. It would not have been a good place to be. I have also stood at the grave of Quanah Parker. He is the only American Indian that the U.S. Army made a treaty with, AND KEPT! He was a man's man, and a tactician like no other. His mother (a white) named Cynthia Ann Parker was kidnapped by the Comanche, adopted, and later married a Comanche Chief. Her Uncle was the HANGING JUDGE, Issac Parker with his court located in Ft. Smith Ar. I have stood in that court room also.
It is interesting to note that when Cynthia Parker was captured by the whites she had a small child with her. After unsuccessfully trying to escape and go back to the Comanche, I believe she starved herself to death rather than live with the whites.

[Texgun]

A term Ive heard that Kiowas used to discribe rifles that were effective and long range; "Shoot today kill tomorrow".
Also binoculars or telescopes were called " long eyes".

[Duke0313]

Reportedly happened at the Second Battle of Adobe Walls, June 27, 1874...
The battle was highlighted on the second day by the legendary shot of William "Billy" Dixon, who killed an attacker on a faraway hill using a Sharps buffalo rifle. Controversy prevails over the exact range of the shot; a post-battle survey set the distance at fifteen hundred yards, while Baker and Harrison set it at about one thousand yards. Casualty reports vary, and are not known with any great accuracy, although most agree that less than 30 total deaths would be a close number

[Texgun]

Dee,
You may know this but the story of the abduction of Cynthia Parker was the subject of the John Wayne movie entitled "The Searchers".

[Duke0313]

Don't mean to butt in, but I just watched that movie again a couple of days ago. Maybe the best western ever! Mr. Wayne was quoted once that it was his favorite role, he even named one of his sons Ethan after his character in the film.
Trivia: Did you know that Wayne's repeated use of the phase "that'll be the day" inspired the Buddy Holly song of the same name?

[Dee]

Dee,
You may know this but the story of the abduction of Cynthia Parker was the subject of the John Wayne movie entitled "The Searchers".

No I did not know that. Many a movie came from books unnamed. The Outlaw Josie Wales, was taken for the book "Gone to Texas", which included many people that actually existed in my area. One mentioned at the store in the movie was Captain Bob Lee whom fought with Lewis Peacock less than 7 miles from my house. The fight was to the death, and it was a feud that lasted YEARS after the war ended, and the two major combatants were killed. It is (the actual history of the feud) is an interesting read.

[Texgun]

 Dee,
 Where do you live in Texas?

[Dee]

Dee,
 Where do you live in Texas?

North Central by Sherman. How about you?

[Texgun]

 DFW. I enjoy history. My great great grandfather was a rancher near Eastland. He was killed by Kiowa horse theives.
 My great grandfather was a cowboy and made four trail drives to Dodge City and one from Silver City, NM to Fort Worth.
 My grand father was a heavy equipment operator and built roads. He stopped Bonnie and Clyde once at a road block but not for long. He also raised cattle, horses and me. He was my best friend.

[Skunk]

What stories are out there that refer to long shot "kills" and the guns that made the shots possible?

Was watching a documentary (it might have been on Wild West Tech) about Wild Bill and remember a shootout where Bill hit his opponent center mass in the heart at 70 yards. Bill was using his silver-plated, ivory gripped, .36 cal Colt 1851 Navy Revolver.

[Dee]

Me too Texgun. My Grandfather, and Father were Cherokees from Oklahoma. My Grandfather a reformed outlaw, once got to drinkin, rode his horse into a white church and shot some of the lamps out inside. He went to McAlyster for a year for that. When he got out, he came to Texas where I was born and grew up, became a share cropper, and a church elder. We had ancestry on both sides of the law when Oklahoma was a territory, and even when I did my 20 year career in L.E. I guess the knife truly cuts both ways.

[kix]

  As a first generation Texan I cannot claim any historical events but nonetheless I would be not be happy to be anything else but a Texan. God bless Texas.  Kix.

[longcaribiner]

Billy Dixon borrowed the Sharps rifle from the Tavern owner, not even his gun.  Dixon's buffalo hunting partner was Bat Masterson.  Quanah PArker was mounted with the group of Indians on the knoll and years later when Dixon and PArker met for reporters, Parker related that the bullet hit some rocks and bounced up into the brave hitting him in the leg.    However even more amazing, the Indians gathered behind a hill to reflect on the powers of the white mans new rifles and while over the crest of a hill and out of sight, AND even farther away than Dixon's shot, a bullet struck an indian pony in the head and killed it instnatly causing even more fear amongs the braves.

However, read up on Tim Murphy, a Pennylvanian of Irish descent, who joined up with Dan'l Morgan's riflemen and Marched from Va to Saratoga in time to fight.   Story goes that Murphy climbed a Pine tree and from his perch, shot the British Commander off his horse with a mortal wound.  As I recall some estimates were 430 yds.   It is also written that Murphy had a swivel breech flinter.  He would take demonic glee in confronting a group of enemy and shooting one.  As the other's drew their hawks and approached him to kill him, his rifle would claim another victim.  At this point the cockey Indians would flee in fear, not knowing how many shots Murphy could fire without reloading. 
While not necessarily involving a famous long shot, a group of wood cutters was attacked out west by an overwhelming force of Indians.  The Soldiers were equipped with the brand new Trapdoor in 50-70.  The soldiers and guide took cover in a group of wagon boxes. Hence the name the wagon box fight.   While the Army gave much credit to their new breech loading rifles for the way troops held off the Indians, It was probably the lever action repeaters that the guides had the saved the day.

[shunka]

I offer for your entertainment some much older "long shots" from the era of the Revolutionary War.

We know from written accounts that the riflemen *did* practice. How much is less clear. The Military (including Colonials during F&I ) held fairly regular practice, depending upon supplies at the moment. To encourage the enlisted men, officers often awarded the best shot with a coin from their own pocket. Civilian practice is less well documented but we know it did occur.

Powder was less dear than lead; Lead *had* to be imported but powder was both imported and manufactured locally. At most recorded shoots, the winner got the largest portion (often a beef or large bird) the runner up got a smaller portion or the right to collect the lead.

Written accounts also show shooting matches based on speed as well as accuracy - one F&I account mentions a colonial rifleman vs a military musket man; with a closer target the rifleman shot unpatched balls in order to match the musketman's loading speed. With the match consisting of 6 timed shots, we surmise they were not particularly concerned about cost of powder and ball.

Accuracy is also documented:
Further recorded shooting matches were held at taverns, shooting at a silhouette of King George - the targets were at his Head, Heart and A$$, and the best "string" won the game. the string of shots was literally measured by placing pegs in the bullet holes, and wrapping a string around them to measure the circumference. Range Distances depended upon the locale; typically they could range from 40 to over 100 paces. The backstop was most often a large tree. Winner or runner up once again had the right to collect the lead.

A well known and oft quoted letter home from a British officer during the Revolution indicates that at 300 measured paces, a colonial rifleman "who can take his shot" can regularly hit a target the size of a man's head. This was usually accomplished with greased fine patches of cotton or linen. Both cotton and linen were woven locally in the colonies.

yhs
shunka

[All Hawks Kill]

The Billy Dixon shot was reportly 1536 paces, some say 1536 yards.  His weapon was an 1874 Sharps in 50-90.

[Cherokee Mike]

Skunk,

Wild Bill and Dave Tutt had the gunfight in downtown Springfield, Missouri. Bill had been a scout for the Union Army, and Tutt had been a scout for the Confederate Army during the Civil War.  They were playing a game of cards and Bill lost his watch to Tutt.  He warned Tutt not to be bragging about winning the watch.  One thing led to another and they shot it out.  Tutt lost. 

If I remember correctly, Wild Bill had two .36 Colt revolvers he would wear in a sash instead of in holsters.  They said he would fire both guns every day, then clean and reload them.  I believe his eyesight started going bad while he was in his early thirties.  He wasn't very old when he died.         

[Spirithawk]

Not saying it's true but in Wyatt Earps autobiography he says that he knew a few old timers that could hit a man at 400 yards with a .45.  Hickock only fired one shot and hit Dave Tutt in the heart at 75 yards. Many say he was by far the best shot with a pistol that ever lived.

[flatgate]

I'm surprised no one here brought up Mike Venturino's article about the "Billy Dixon" Shot.
It's fascinating. The data presented is amazing.
The article is copied from The High Road.    Click Here
flatgate 


HOW FAR WILL A SHARPS RIFLE SHOOT?
Mike Venturino
In the fall of 1992 the people at Shiloh Sharps were approached by a group of forensic scientists who were going to have a meeting at the Yuma Proving Grounds early in November. The were going to be allowed to use some newly unclassified radar devices to test the performance of various types of ammunition. Shiloh was invited to bring down some rifles and participate in the doings. Especially they wanted was a .50-90 So, Wolfgang Droege, previous Shiloh owner, Kirk Bryan, one of the present Shiloh owners, and Dennis Bardon, Shiloh’s custom gunsmith began making plans to attend. They also asked yours truly if he wanted to go, and I said I wouldn’t miss it.

However, I must admit to being a bit puzzled as to why they wanted to use such new—fangled radar gadgets to test such old guns. Well, when we got there we found out. It seems that one of the forensic scientists wrote an article in their newsletter saying that the Billy Dixon shot at Adobe Walls in 1874 could not possibly have happened. (Remember Billy Dixon knocked an Indian off his horse at a distance later surveyed to be 1,538 yards.)

Anyway, this particular forensic scientist did some calculations and arrived at the conclusion that a .50-90 Sharps (What Billy Dixon said he used could not have a bullet out that far. When I heard what this was all about thought, “That scientist is going to be embarrassed. He must not have fired Sharps Before. We all know they’ll throw a bullet that far.”

When we arrived at the Yuma Proving Grounds I was suitably impressed by it all. We had to have badges pinned to our shirts to move about the place, and I couldn’t take my camera out of the vehicle. A picture of the row upon row of Russian T—72 tanks would have been neat, but if I had tried we would have been thrown out. The test facility was a large bunker filled with electronic equipment, and covered with armor plate. I asked why and was told it was also the bunker from which they tested tank guns and the plate was to protect the inhabitants in case something blewup during testing. Since they weren’t too worried about our Sharps blowing up and killing the crew, we were free to roam out to the machine rest, which happened to be a modified gun carrier from a Russian T—72 tank.

This whole assembly was not about just testing Sharps. Many of the scientists brought their own weapons to gather data on ranging from .38 Special handguns to 12 gauge shotguns up to even a 20mm cannon. Finally time rolled around to try the Sharps. They elevated the gun carriage to 35 degrees and touched off a round of Dennis Bardon’s loads using a 675 grain bullet powered by about 90 grains of FFg. All the scientists running the equipment started stuttering and stammering, collectively saying, “It couldn’t be!” They just couldn’t accept that a bullet launched by black powder and starting out at a muzzle velocity of only 1,216 fps landed over 3,600 yards away!

I heard mutters of, “Shoot another one, something must not be working right.” So they turned loose another shot. This time the bullet weighed 650 grains and the muzzle velocity was 1,301 fps. Again the muzzle was elevated to 35 degrees. That bullet landed 3,245 yards downrange. The fellow who wrote the article saying Billy Dixon couldn’t have hit the Indian got real quiet and very red in the face.

From there on it was all fun. We elevated the muzzle to 45 degrees. The bullet again was 650 grains and started at 1,275 fps. It landed at 3,190 yards, but the most amazing thing was that it went up to a few feet shy of 4,000 feet and was in the a full 30 seconds!

One of the scientist there had a laptop computer and he did a bunch of tapping with the data accumulated so far and said, “Elevate the muzzle to 4 1/2 to five degrees and you’ll get a Billy Dixon shot. That was done with the same load and the bullet landed at 1,517 yards. I’d say that scientist was on the ball. Incidentally, five degrees of muzzle elevation can easily be gotten with only the rear barrel sight on a Shiloh Sharps. -

We tried one light bullet in the .50-90. It only weighed 45&gralns, and had 100 grains of FFg under it. It started out at an impressive 1,406 fps but with the muzzle elevated to 35 degrees it landed only 2585 yards away. That extra bullet weight sure makes a difference.

Next we played with a .45-110 (2 7/8 inch case). Using a 550 grain bullet with about 100 grains of Ffg. With the muzzle elevated to 35 degrees it started with a muzzle velocity of 1,322 fps and landed 3,575 yards down-range. Next we dropped the muzzle to five degrees. The small bullet started at 1,361 fps and the bullet went 1,430 yards. Interestingly, it was stil traveling 669 fps when it went into the ground.

The last Sharps we test fired was Dennis Bardon’s .40—70 Sharps Straight silhouette rifle. The bullet weighed 403 grains. I don’t have the exact powder charge at hand right now but it would have to be in the 58 to 60 grain range. The muzzle was elevated to five degrees and the bullet started out at 1,333 fps. It hit at 1,155 yards and was still traveling 688 fps.

The forensic scientists generally agree that any projectile from BBS on up needs in the area of 300 fps to inflict a fatal wound. The .50 caliber Sharps bullets which started at 35 to 45 degree angles were coming almost straight down o~it of the sky, but they were still traveling at 350to 400 fps. In other words they were still deadly even at 3,500 yards!

Others there were anxious to test their pet projects so that’s all the Sharps shooting we got done. Actually we tested 27 rounds, but most were .50 calibers and merely repeat shots to confirm results. I would like liked to have tested more of the lighter calibers at the five degree angle, but time wouldn’t allow. If I ever get to do this again I would like to take samples of every .40 and .45 caliber bullet styles available and compare them all with the muzzle elevated to only five degrees. We could certainly get some precise ideas as to the effect of bullet nose shape couldn’t we?

[ironglow]

   Longcaribiner beat me to it, but we must give room to Timothy Murphy, who served during the Revolutionary War.  His shot at Bemis Heights, near Saratoga, NY could arguably be called the most important single shot in gaining our independence.
   The Battle of Saratoga was the turning point of the Revolutionary War..after that battle, British forces drew back to Canada, eschewing the possibility of linking up with Howe and the rest of the British Army.  They did not make a serious threat again...and Timothy's shot, taking out General Fraser was the turning point of that battle.  Shortly after tyaking out Gen fraser, Sir francis Clerke (aide-de-camp to Gen Burgoyne) galloped onto the field...and Murphy took him out.  That shot may have clinched the British decision to pack up and head north..
  http://www.americanrevolution.org/murphy.html

  So 300 yards may not seem great today, but  back a century before the Adobe Walls incident, when rifles were in their infancy...and the Brits were for the most part using smoothbore muskets..it  was pretty good ....and impressive..
 

[streak]

Billy Dixon is the man you speak of. He and about 27 other men, and one woman were TRESSPASSING buffalo hunters. They were on Kiowa, and Comanche land killing buffalo for the hides. There were a large number of Comanche there including famous Chief Quanah Parker.
Dixon actually SHOT INTO a group of 15 warriors sitting on horses together, and was not shooting at any particular warrior. I doubt he could have picked one out anyway. The range was 7/8s of a mile.
I have been to the spot which is now on private property. It would not have been a good place to be. I have also stood at the grave of Quanah Parker. He is the only American Indian that the U.S. Army made a treaty with, AND KEPT! He was a man's man, and a tactician like no other. His mother (a white) named Cynthia Ann Parker was kidnapped by the Comanche, adopted, and later married a Comanche Chief. Her Uncle was the HANGING JUDGE, Issac Parker with his court located in Ft. Smith Ar. I have stood in that court room also.
It is interesting to note that when Cynthia Parker was captured by the whites she had a small child with her. After unsuccessfully trying to escape and go back to the Comanche, I believe she starved herself to death rather than live with the whites.

Dee,
Good historical info!
Ft Smith is a neat place, I have been there several times and if memory serves me right, the hanging tree is still there in town where Judge Parker carried out his justice!
Also another thing that got my attention was one day I decided to go across the Arkansas river into Oklahoma, man talk about a change in scenery!
I bet the marshalls that went out into the Oklahoma Territory from Ft Smith to capture the bad guys must have been a pretty tough breed of men! Then bring the BG back to FT Smith for sentencing by Judge Parker. That had to be some wild country back in those days!

[jlwilliams]

  I'll have to dig for the specifics but I recall reading about a mile-ish shot during the Lincoln County Range War.  Most of what's written about that conflict centers on Billy the Kid, but there was plenty of action and drama that had nothing to do with him.  He's just the one who captured the public imagination so he gets more writtien and filmed about him that the rest of the principals combined.  Fair enough. 
 
  I'll see if I can find those specifics.  All I recall is that it was a boffalo rifle shot at cole to a mile.  I read about this 15 or more years back.  At the time I discussed it withan older gent I know who is more knowledgeable about guns than I.  He said, given the cartridge and range, it must have been like an artillery shot.  Coming through a long arc and hitting at a down angle.  Still counts.  A hit is a hit.