6.5-06 or 280 AI

[hankster76]

I am thinking of having a rifle built on a Howa action I have lying around. I have narrowed it down to these to rounds 6.5-06 or 280 AI. It would be whitetail and occasional longer range varmint gun. Just curious to get some input on owners of the two.

[crash87]

I own a 280 Rem M-700. It (HAS) does everything your asking, It's accounted for coyote on up to and including Elk. An A.I. is more of the same. I've been curious about the 6.5-06 for more years than I now care to count. I just never got around to getting one made up. After I took care of another affliction, a 257 Roberts AI, I just never thought I needed nor wanted one. My opinion is, forget about the trivial pros and cons of each and just flip a coin, your going to win either way. CRASH87

[nomosendero]

Or a 6.5-06AI

[hankster76]

I thought about that as well but the dies are considerably more and in PO Ackley's book he even says the standard 6.5-06 is more efficent than the AI version and the AI version begins to show signs of overbore.

[Swampman]

Neither is better than the .270, .280, or the .30-06.

[nomosendero]

I thought about that as well but the dies are considerably more and in PO Ackley's book he even says the standard 6.5-06 is more efficent than the AI version and the AI version begins to show signs of overbore.

You have to remember that alot of slow powders have come out since Mr. Ackley's writings, which has changed the picture a good deal. In Mr. Ackley's day, the std. 25-06 did not offer nearly what it does today with powders such as
RL22, 25, Retumbo, Magnum & many others now. In fact the 25-06AI now has a 125-150fps gain over the 25-06, in Ackley's day it gave virtually nothing & the 257 Wea. will go another 100fps over the AI for the same reason.

[hankster76]

That is a good point about the powders. I would have to check on the 6.5-06ai reamer. My smith has a standard 6.5-06 reamer.

I know neither are a great deal better than the standard 270, 280, or 30-06 but everybody has those I want something different. we can't all be crowd following lemmings carrying our Rem 700 BDL 30-06 every year.

[Swampman]

And when I'm 2000 miles from home without ammo, I'll follow them to any store that sells ammo to get a box.

[hankster76]

Who goes 2000 miles away and doesn't take enough ammo???

[Coyote Hunter]

For whitetail and the occasional coyote, I'd go with the 6.5mm-06.

Even better is the 6.5mm-06 AI (aka 6.5-06 A-Square) which beats the .270 Rem AI, .270 Win, and .30-06 in terms of low recoil, trajectory and retained energy and velocity at long range.  It even beats a 7mm RM and WBY at long range.


I'm building the 6.5 in the AI version.  Lower recoil was a major reason.  The reason I went with theh AI is that I plan to use .25-06 brass to form the cases and want to ensure that I never get the 6.5 and .25 ammo mixed up.

[charles p]

I've got a 280AI built on a Rem 700.  With a 26" Shilen and a McMillan stock, it is too heavy to carry very far.  Shoots good though.  In the process of squeezing every bit of accuracy and velocity I could get, I added more weight than I now care for.

Just get a plain vanilla 7mm-08 and you will be very happy.

[Swampman]

Who goes 2000 miles away and doesn't take enough ammo???

I've known guys who went further than that, and had no ammo.  It got left behind some how.

[Swampman]

For whitetail and the occasional coyote, I'd go with the 6.5mm-06.

Even better is the 6.5mm-06 AI (aka 6.5-06 A-Square) which beats the .270 Rem AI, .270 Win, and .30-06 in terms of low recoil, trajectory and retained energy and velocity at long range.  It even beats a 7mm RM and WBY at long range.


I'm building the 6.5 in the AI version.  Lower recoil was a major reason.  The reason I went with theh AI is that I plan to use .25-06 brass to form the cases and want to ensure that I never get the 6.5 and .25 ammo mixed up.

LOL!

[nomosendero]

Who goes 2000 miles away and doesn't take enough ammo???

I've known guys who went further than that, and had no ammo.  It got left behind some how.

Very stupid thing to do, but I enjoy those dumb crook shows too. 

Gun writers love this stuff, this needing to buy in a remote hdw. store stuff. But no thanks for me, even when I take a 30-06 or 270, I use my reloads period & don't want to sight in inferior fact. ammo.
When I go out West, I ALWAYS pack my ammo in at least 3 different places so that this retarded stuff doesn't happen. Also, I take a spare rifle & ammo for it also packed in separate places in case we have a mechanical problems with one of the rifles of the group. It works every time it's tried. The stupid mistakes that some make are not a concern to those that plan.

[Swampman]

While handloads used to be better than factory, that's no longer the case.  The only reasons to handload are to save money or to shoot a caliber you can't buy loaded.  Wildcats while romantic no longer serve a need.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

   Swampman, I am sorry, but I must disagree with your statement that factory ammo is equal to good handloads. I have NEVER had a factory load come close to the accuracy of good hand loads. NOT that it cannot happen, but I have only had one load for one rifle that delivered 1 in. groups at one hundred yards. It was Rem. 150 grain in a custom barreled .300. Handloads would beat it most times, but it was my most accurate fac. load. I have probably 20 boxes of various factory ammo, and all can be easily bettered with handloads.

[Swampman]

I've shot tons of factory ammo that shot less than MOA & a lot of it was better than MOA.  Of course I shoot Remingtons.

[nomosendero]

I've shot tons of factory ammo that shot less than MOA & a lot of it was better than MOA.  Of course I shoot Remingtons.

No kidding!! 

[nomosendero]

  Swampman, I am sorry, but I must disagree with your statement that factory ammo is equal to good handloads. I have NEVER had a factory load come close to the accuracy of good hand loads. NOT that it cannot happen, but I have only had one load for one rifle that delivered 1 in. groups at one hundred yards. It was Rem. 150 grain in a custom barreled .300. Handloads would beat it most times, but it was my most accurate fac. load. I have probably 20 boxes of various factory ammo, and all can be easily bettered with handloads.

Yes, no doubt about it. Of course some of the fact. stuff is very good. I have a Mod 700VS that loves the 165 Fed. Fushion, but after some careful reloading, I found a couple of reloads that beat it. And we can forget the idea that one brand will do better all of the time, the one that comes closest to me is the 168gr Fed Gold Match in 308, but not in every single rifle. In rounds like the 30-06, 270, 25-06 whatever you choose, to say that one brand of rifle ammo is the most accurate every time is laughable to anyone who shoots alot, even Rem  . And accuracy is only part of it, in some rounds like the 30-06, 280, 7mag & many others I can & do get better velocity in most rifles. Combine that with the bullets I choose for the application, no comparison really. But I am glad that good factory ammo is available for the occassional shooter & hunter.

[hankster76]

If the "TONS" of factory ammo are shooting SUB MOA imagine how good some handloads tailored to your beloved Remingtons would shoot!!!! You must be shooting older REmingtons because a couple of the new ones I have played with wouldn't make a good tomato stake! And that hurts coming from me because I used to be an absolute BIG GREEN die hard. Come on SWAMP don't you have teh slightest desire to rip the barrels off of one of those Remmy's and build something unique?

Thanks for all the tips on the 6.5 and the 280ai. Keep you opinions coming  as of right now I am leaning toward the 6.5-06ai.

[Swampman]

I just can see spending thousands to build a rifle that can't beat a $450.00 Remington Walmart scope/rifle combo.  I used to love novelty guns but then It dawned on me I was wasting my money just to be different.

[nomosendero]

And I can't see what your rant has to do with the original post. Trust me, no one cares that you have your 30-06 & Rem. convulsions. The man asked a question about a couple of possibilities & 30-06 was not one. I have no doubt he already knows about the '06, one doesn't go straight to a 280AI, 6.5-06 or AI as a rule without some experience.

I'm sorry about this hankster76. I let it ge out of hand.

Let's get on track and stay there.

[Coyote Hunter]

While handloads used to be better than factory, that's no longer the case. 

Blanket statements like that tend to prove one thing – the ignorance of the person making it.

I’ve seen handloads that weren’t worth shooting and I’ve seen handloads that no factory ammo I’m aware of could match in quality.  My .45-70 North Fork loads are one example of the latter – they shoot great because they are very consistent.  Single-digit, 5-shot Extreme Spreads are common with those loads. 

By the same token, I’ve seen factory loads that shot well in all three of my .30-06s and  factory loads that were equally disappointing in all three.

Although there is some great ammo out there, each rifle is its own universe and some rifles need handloads tailored to their unique needs for best performance.  Factory ammo is invariably tailored to meet certain standard conditions and, as with handloads, individual loads may or may not do well in a particular rifle. 
 

The only reasons to handload are to save money or to shoot a caliber you can't buy loaded. 

Saving money is certainly one reason to handload, and frankly it is more than enough reason for me.  But there are other reasons as well, including the fact that I can tailor the ammo to my rifle and get better accuracy and/or velocity than I can with factory ammo.  I can (and do) also build ammo using components, such as North Fork bullets, that are not offered by any factory.

Wildcats while romantic no longer serve a need.

Perhaps no need that you have, but your needs are not the same as everyone else’s.    Really, you should learn to speak for yourself. 

My decision to build a wildcat was based on very real needs – the most important one being safety.  What I was looking for was a very flat shooting rifle with low recoil that would be suitable for both long rang target work as well as hunting.  The chosen cartridge also had to be compatible with the action I had available to work with, a new Interarms Mark X in standard .30-06 length and configuration.  After an extensive study of various cartridges and their ballistics I decided on a 6.5mm-06.  There was a problem with the 6.5mm-06, however, as I wanted to make the brass from .25-06 brass rather than pay $2 each for pre-formed, properly headstamped brass.  The problem was that since the .25-06 and 6.5mm bullets are so close in diameter, it would be easy to mistakenly try to chamber a 6.5mm cartridge in a .25-06 - with fairly predictable and always unwelcome results.    The solution was to choose the AI version of the 6.5mm-06 as the blown out case will not fit in a standard .25-06 chamber and I have no intentions of every buying or building a .25-06AI.

An additional benefit of the 6.5mm-06AI is the it provides even better long range performance, with trajectories beating any factory loads I have found for the 7mm RM or 7mm Weatherby at long range.  While there are cartridges that will beat the long range trajectory, they invariably do so at the expense of increased recoil – often very significant increases.  None that I could find, however, met my requirement of working in my Interarms action.

[Coyote Hunter]

I just can see spending thousands to build a rifle that can't beat a $450.00 Remington Walmart scope/rifle combo.  I used to love novelty guns but then It dawned on me I was wasting my money just to be different.

I just can see spending thousands to build a rifle that can't beat a $450.00 Remington Walmart scope/rifle combo.  I used to love novelty guns but then It dawned on me I was wasting my money just to be different.

It isn’t necessary to spend thousands to build a custom rifle, even if it is chambered for a wildcat.

Savage actions are a great place to start for a low-budget but very accurate custom rifle, even in a wildcat chambering.  All that is really needed with a Savage action is a new barrel, barrel nut wrench and Go/No-go gauges and a person can swap the barrel themselves.  Barrels can be had fairly inexpensively and barrel makers often have wildcat reamers available.  A wide variety of stocks are available for the Savage actions as well.  Floating and bedding the action can be done as a DIY project, as can tuning the trigger in many cases. 

A $450 Remington M700 is great if it is offered in the configuration and chambering a person wants.  In many cases, however, such a rifle will fail to provide the options a person is looking for.

You may have been wasting your money “just to be different” – wouldn’t surprise me a bit.   Frankly, “just to be different” never struck me as a good reason to do anything.  On the other hand, building a custom rifle to get what a person wants is not necessarily a waste of money at all – only the individual spending the money can make that determination. 

The custom 6.5mm-06AI I’m building will come in at about $1500 when all is said and done.  The rifle is intended primarily for long range target work out to 1200 yards.  If I had started with a $450 Remington the bill would not be much different as I still would have had the action trued, the lugs lapped, the trigger replaced, the action re-blued, the barrel replaced with a match grade stainless and fluted barrel in a heavy sporter configuration, the barrel floated, and the action pillar and glass bedded.  When all is said and done I will have a rifle that uniquely meets my requirements, something no $450 Remington is capable of doing.

That said, I do appreciate the utility of inexpensive firearms – which is why over half my rifles were purchased used, most in the $350 range.  If I could purchase the equivalent of the custom I’m building for under $500 I would gladly have done so.

[archerross]

Greetings.  New to this forum, but not new to shooting/reloading.  I'd like to chime in on this discussion. 

Last fall I was strongly considering the 6.5-06.  I visited with a gunsmith friend of mine, who was going to do the build, about the idea and he liked it.  He also asked me to look at the 6.5-284.  Looking at the ballistics, they are nearly identical.  No great surprise since the case capacity of the 284 is very similar to the 30-06, only it is shorter and fatter.  One of the big advantages of building the 6.5 on the 284 case and a standard action is that the shorter case offers you nearly unlimited flexibility in seating depth.  One potential downside of the 6.5-06 is that your rifle may shoot most accurately with the bullet seated touching or even slightly into the lands.  At that length, it may not fit in the magazine.  I ended up using a Ruger M77 Mark II .270 action for the 6.5-284 build.  I have seated test rounds 0.020 into the lands and the bullets would easily fit in the magazine.  My most recent group was 3/4 inch at 200 yds.  When you start looking at barrels, take a good look at a Brux in 1:8.5 twist.  Rockin barrels!

That much being said, my gunsmith buddy recently had the opportunity to shoot his 6.5x47 Lapua and 280AI at 500-1600 yds in some difficult wind conditions.  In raw accuracy, has 6.5x47 (~1/4 MOA) has the 280 beat (~1/2 MOA), however given the conditions, the 180 gr high BC bullet he was shooting in the 280 AI beat out the 6.5 at the longer distances.  In his opinion, he would rather shoot the 280 AI at distances over 800 yds, particularly in tough conditions.

In either case I would put a break on it.  Not because they are big recoiling cartridges, more because you can spot your own shots at distance with the reduced recoil.  Past 400 yds I can recover fast enough to spot myself.  This is with an 11.5 pound rifle.

Just my humble opinion.

[hankster76]

Great post and very informative. I will keep that in mind. Thanks again!

[Coyote Hunter]

archerross –

In my case I am working with a new Interarms Mark X action configured for a standard .30-06 size cartridge (action length, magazine and feed rails).  While I considered building a 6.5 on the .375 Ruger or a WSM case, in the end this idea was rejected because the resulting case capacities were greater than I  considered optimum for the recoil levels I was seeking and because I did not want to mess with the feed rails (have a friend who had such work done and was unhappy with the results).   With the decision to leave the feed rails alone the options were pretty much limited to a standard 6.5-06 or the AI version.  I opted for the AI version to prevent loaded cartridges from being chambered in a standard .25-06.

Seating depth will not be an issue.  Even though this rifle will see most of its use on targets, all of my rifles are, in the end, hunting rifles.  The bullets will be seated off the lands at the maximum COL allowed by the magazine.  The 130g Scirocco II’s I intend to use seat to the back of the neck with only the short boat tail protruding further.

The 6.5x47 Lapua lags well behind the 6.5-06AI in terms of velocity.  When both are MPBR zeroed for a 6” diameter target, the 130g Scirocco II (BC .618) pushed to 3200fps with a 6.5-06AI beats a .280 AI pushing a Berger VLD (BC .659) to 2828fps (Nosler’s fastest load for a 175g bullet) by 51” drop and almost 2” in 10mph wind deflection at 1000 yards.  Similarly a 140g VLD from the 6.5-06AI at 3090fps (.264 Hawk velocity) beats the .280AI/180g @ 2828fps by 43” in drop and 3” in wind deflection.  Just to pick one, in a rifle/scope combination weight 8.3 pounds, the 6.5-06AI/140g VLD does it with about 6 pounds less recoil.

[nomosendero]

Swampie, I asked to stay on topic, so I deleted. If it continues, I will just delete without saying anything.

[Coyote Hunter]

Yes, reducing bullet dia. by .010 without increasing powder capicity make the 6.5-06 magic.

The 6.5-06 isn’t magic, nor is the AI version.  You’re  just pissed because in another thread I challenged you to come up with a load for one of the cartridges you were hyping that would beat the 6.5-06AI with the loads I intend to use, and you came up with loser load after loser load – guess you’re not up to doing the math before you spout off, eh?

It isn’t the reduced diameter, it’s the combination of bullet weight, Ballistic Coefficient and velocity.  The 6.5’s do very well in the BC category and the relatively light weight allows high velocity with relatively low recoil.  Simple physics, not magic.

  It will out shoot a .257 Weatherby.
 

Correct.

My rifle is being purpose built to play at ranges out to 1500 yards, although 1200 yards will be more common.  Let’s compare the flattest load I can find for the .257 Weatherby against the 6.5-06AI.

.257 Weatherby
115g BT, BC .453, @ 3433fps, Nosler 6th.   Let’s use the Berger 115g VLD, BC .479 instead – the .257 WBY needs all the help it can get...

6.5-06AI
130g Scirocco II, BC .571, 3250fps.

Zeroing both for MPBR for a 6” diameter target, and assuming a 10mph 90-degree wind:

1000 yards
-191.1”, 66.6” Wind Drift, 1690fps, 729fpe, .257 WBY
-193.5”, 56.7” Wind Drift, 1793fps, 928fpe, 6.5-06AI

1200 yards
-362.2”, 119.2” Wind Drift, 1308fps, 436fpe, .257 WBY
-334.2”, 92.1” Wind Drift, 1519fps, 665fpe, 6.5-06AI

1500 yards
-711.0”, 192.5” Wind Drift, 1106fps, 313fpe, .257 WBY
-664.0”, 159.5” Wind Drift, 1235fps, 440fpe, 6.5-06AI


As you can see, the 6.5-06AI beats the .257WBY in every category except the 1000-yard drop, and it only wins that one by 2.4”.  Given that wind drift is harder to compensate for than minor differences in drop, the 6.5-06AI is easily the all-around winner.

If you can find a better .257 Weatherby load from a reliable data publisher, I’m all ears.  Good luck, and if you need help I can point you to some good ballistic calculators so you don’t embarrass yourself again...

 

Myths don't bring home the bacon.

Must not be much bacon eating at your place...

[nomosendero]

I am glad you ran the numbers with the 280AI & 180Berger, I had not bothered & it appears the 180 starts a wee bit slow to beat the 140 in the 6.5AI, yes it is impressive.

After 1000 yds is where these rounds start to walk compared to other rounds with higher muzzle vel, but lower BC bullets.  In the case of the the 257 wea, it is very flat out to 700 yds & as you show even a hair flatter at 1,000 yds & the windage is virtually the same out to 450 yds or so. Yes, for the long range paper/target shooter, esp. past 800 yds it matters, which was what you were talking about. For a 500 yd. Antelope rifle, it would not matter, so it depends on what your goals are. Let's get back to 6.5-06/AI vs 280AI.

If I had known this post would pop up I would not have deleted swampie's, but yours does have pertenent data.

Again, back to the 2 calibers, no need for us to argue about an off topic item.