Author Topic: Cast bullets at 458 Lott speeds  (Read 1724 times)

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Offline tykempster

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Cast bullets at 458 Lott speeds
« on: June 06, 2009, 02:06:17 AM »
I'm looking to begin casting for my 45-120 "Nitro".  I currently shoot 405 grain bullets a bit over 2500 fps and 500 grain bullets about 2200 fps.

I understand I will need especially hard lead for this, would Linotype be enough?  Would I get any expansion at these velocities?  I would need a gas check I assume, do you need a special mold that fits a gas check on the base, or can you crimp a gas check on to any bullet?  What lube should I use for this velocity?  Basically I am asking for a quick step by step guide to casting bullets that will be used at high velocity.

I was hoping to do this as a low budget project, as I am in highschool and I don't think I can afford the expensive Lubri-Sizers and such.  Would the Lee sizer do?  I'm not sure how I would apply anything other than their Liquid Alox lube however.

Sorry for so many questions, I was referred to this specific forum by a friend from another site.

Thanks a lot for helping,
Tyler

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Cast bullets at 458 Lott speeds
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2009, 06:21:21 AM »
Good question Tyler!   ;D  I'm anxious to hear Veral's answer!
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Offline Veral

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Re: Cast bullets at 458 Lott speeds
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2009, 08:42:12 PM »
  Lott speeds are possible with good accuracy using lead bullets.  You'll need a good bullet design, and LBT bullet lube.  (If there is any other bullet lube that will stand full throttle, no one has ever told me of it.)  Our blue soft will be the one to get.  You'll do well to get a mold from LBT also, as I don't know of any good ones for high velocity use from other makers.  I design all LBT bullets to take what no others can handle, so far as pressure and velocity, and still deliver accuracy with no leading.  Bullets MUST me gas checked.  Here are your production steps.

  Use wheel weight metal just cleaned up, or with no more than 1% tin added, best tin source being silver bearing no lead plumbers solder, which is available from all plumbing stores.
  Don't start saving bullets till the mold is hot enough that all are frosty, when dropped on a pad.  An old bath  towel folded is great.  When you are up to temp, start dropping them into cool water.  In 24 hours hardness will be higher than linotype, and will be more stable than lino, so far as long term hardness loss goes.

  The lee sizer will work great for anyone on a tight budgit.  Put a gas check on the bullet, then push it through the sizer nose first.  The pusher punch must be a fairly close fit to the sizer to prevent wrinkling of the checks.  No more than about .020 smaller than the hole for best results.  After sizing, apply the Blue soft lube with the forefinger of your master hand, hold that finger out of the way, and push the bullet through the sizer again, to wipe the lube smooth and clean.  When you have a batch lubed up, use a cotton rag, or paper towels to wipe any excess off the bases and nose.  They are ready for loading.

 
  If you chose an LBT design, I will have walked you through all the important factors so far as seating depth etc, and will have made the bullet specifically for the rifle(s) you want to use it in. Use jacketed bullet data, for the bullet weight you have, preferably the slowest buring BALL powders listed and start with the lightest loads given.  Work up to max or until accuracy becomes unacceptable or leading becomes a problem.  The latter is very unlikely with LBT bullet lube, if your rifle bore is reasonably smooth.  Accuracy will degrade, as you work up to max loads, as the bullet gets too much pressure for the lead to rifling engagement to maintain a precise fit.  In other words, when lead begins to smear away or strip on the leading edges of the rifling edges.

  Read everything in this forum which you think might give you more insight, and by all means get my book, Jacketed Performance with Cast bullets, which is available from       LBTMoulds.com

  Bullets this hard will not expand but will break down on impact with game at full Lott speeds.  But you don't need expansion if you get an LFN, and with that bullet I don't recommend shooting them faster than 1500 fps for fastest kill speed.  If you want a good flat trajectory, run them up to 2100 fps or so, and they will normally not break down in game, even if they hit heavy bone.  At 2600 fps and higher impact speeds, 20 bhn and harder bullets will break up into almost powder on impact when temperatures are around 0 F and colder.  Best to keep velocities at no higher than 2400 fps if you expect to hunt in very cold weather.  A softnose will soften impact and allow them to stand higher impact speeds, but we are getting a bit too techy for a beginner, and out of line for your budgit, with softnoses.  And they aren't needed if you stay within the speeds I'm recommending.

  If you want expansion, you should be able to get good hunting accuracy with the above bullet/lube/information, except use air cooled WW bullets, which are cast in fairly cool ambient temperature, say no warmer than 70 deg F, and spread out on a pad a little for good air flow around them.  With a small fan blowing across them, hardness will come up to about 14 bhn, rather than around 12 if not cooled with forced air.  Keep velocity at 2400 fps max, and they will perform on game like standard jacketed bullets, as long as impact speed is at least 1400 fps.  This means, if you are quite certain you'll never shoot game at over 100 yards, a start speed of 1800 fps will be enough to insure expansion at 100 yards, if the bullet is fairly heavy for the caliber.  Like 450 gr plus in 45 cal,  180 gr plus in 30 cal, etc, etc.

  Last but far from least.  When you run into any snags, I'm here to answer any questions, and save you endless experimentation.  I've trained many hundreds of new casters in the past 30 years, so it's hard to find me without an answer that will work for you.  Best to pop personal problem questions at me by email, but if you think they are good for everybody to read, write them here.
Veral Smith

Offline tykempster

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Re: Cast bullets at 458 Lott speeds
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2009, 03:47:28 PM »
THANKS A TON!

I will start off casting low speed stuff for my 45-70, then when I get more comfortable I will get a better mold for the 45-120 and get to work!

Offline Veral

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Re: Cast bullets at 458 Lott speeds
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2009, 09:37:04 PM »
  When you get your first dissapointment with a cheap mold, order one from LBT that fits your gun.  Rather than spending a pocket full of greenbacks and a lot of your short life experimenting, just be simple and ask me any question you have, and follow what I tell you EXACTLY.

  I'm real proud of a Phoenix customer I had about 15 years ago.  He bought a new Pedersoli 45-70 and knowing nothing about cast, just did what I told him to.  He sent me several 100 yard groups  ranging from one quarter inch up to a half  inch, with good heavy smokeless powder loads, shot in 100 deg F. temperatures. The gun was scoped as his eyes were over the hill.   He lapped the bore before even starting to load.

  Earlier I specified the use of LBT lube for heavy loads.  In my book I tell of an experiment I did quite a few years ago.  I was trying to get a lead star on the muzzle of my 30-06.  I loaded to near max power, using LBT lube and was holding a good tight group with no lead at all.  When I got down to my last bullet I wiped the LBT lube off and replaced it with Alox.  I got not just a lead star but a lead plated muzzle with one shot, and had to hammer the bolt open with a piece of 2X4.  The primer fell out and cartridge was close to the rupture point!  That is the difference between bullet lubes.  Most experianced lead shooters have used Alox so know it as a good reference point, and a fairly good lubricant for moderate loads, but if you want heavy loads, alox or no other I know of will carry the mail.  With alox and air cooled WW bullets one will be fortunate to find a bore good enough to support speeds of 2200 fps, and that with rapid leading and degerating accuracy after  just a few shots.  With LBT lube most bottle neck cartridge rifles will shoot air cooled WW bullets at 2450 fps, no leading and consistent accuracy.  With hard bullets, 20 bhn +, I have shot one and a half inch 100 yard groups at speeds to 2900 fps, using LBT lube.  It is THE major ingredient, after, but with, a strong bullet design, if you want to get stout loads from lead bullets.
Veral Smith

Offline tykempster

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Re: Cast bullets at 458 Lott speeds
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2009, 09:25:23 AM »
I will get a good mold later when I have some money....if my 600 Cheapo Nitro project works out I will need a mold for it too, can you do sizes like a .620 1000+ grain bullet?

Offline Veral

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Re: Cast bullets at 458 Lott speeds
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2009, 07:54:10 PM »
  I make 600 nitro molds quite often, and I've forgotten what max weight is, but well over 1000 grains as I recall..  Maximum diameter which will work well in my molds is 8 bore, or 8 guage, and I make one occasionally.  Paradox molds mostly.

  Gas checks aren't available for 600 of coarse, so you will be limited to plain base velocities, which are quite respectable with the larger calibers if the barrel is smooth. 
Veral Smith

Offline tykempster

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Re: Cast bullets at 458 Lott speeds
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2009, 05:48:10 AM »
Theoretically I could run a 1000 grain bullet to almost 1800 fps.  I wouldn't do that very off, mostly around 1500-1600 fps.  There shouldn't be any leading at that speed right?

Offline Veral

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Re: Cast bullets at 458 Lott speeds
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2009, 09:48:27 PM »
  If you use LBT bullet lube, there should be no leading at speeds to 1600 fps with the large caliber.  However, if I were shooting 1000 grains of lead at that speed in any gun I could hold up to point at the target, I'd feel like I had 'lead in my pants' after the first shot!  I'm also convinced that just watching you would satisfy any shooting urge I might have!
Veral Smith

Offline tykempster

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Re: Cast bullets at 458 Lott speeds
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2009, 03:34:13 PM »
Okay Veral, cast my first bullets tonight.  Not as pretty as I'd hoped for.  I will get pics up ASAP so you can diagnose the issue.