Author Topic: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?  (Read 4470 times)

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Offline NZFS

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2009, 04:10:32 PM »
SB....(water) proofing a wooden stock has been tried by many.
From proprietary oils to marine varnish....nothing comes near a synthetic stock in my experience.

Offline S.B.

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2009, 05:36:03 PM »
NZFS, I understand what water proofing is but, when words are left out of sentences, makes it hard to cipher.
By the way, my father was a WWI veteran and he spoke of rifle inspections as the same as my older brothers who were in the military later in the 50s and 60s. Where did you get your information from?
Steve
"The Original Point and Click Interface was a Smith & Wesson."
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Offline NZFS

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2009, 06:08:13 PM »
SB....Jeez, you're a bit older than me if your father was a WW1 vet.

Sorry about the confusion, I thought the proofing reference was obvious.
My grandfather used the .303 SMLE in that conflict as did uncles in PNG in WW2.
Don't misunderstand me, the military recommend  clean weapons, however the base line for a serviceable .303 was merely a clean bore and minimal mud in the action.

Offline S.B.

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2009, 02:39:15 AM »
SB....Jeez, you're a bit older than me if your father was a WW1 vet.

Sorry about the confusion, I thought the proofing reference was obvious.
My grandfather used the .303 SMLE in that conflict as did uncles in PNG in WW2.
Don't misunderstand me, the military recommend  clean weapons, however the base line for a serviceable .303 was merely a clean bore and minimal mud in the action.

PNG, is this the Pacific Theater of War?
Steve
"The Original Point and Click Interface was a Smith & Wesson."
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Offline NZFS

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2009, 12:47:40 PM »
Yep, Papua New Guinea.

Offline kix

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2009, 05:11:28 PM »
  I agree with 4296 in saying guns,especially rifles,have "zero character" in SS.And the rust factor? Since I live on the Gulf Coast I can equate gun care with boat trailer care. I see expensive boats with trailers that are massive coats of rust. Why? Because the owners didn't spend the time necessary to prevent it! I have hunted the Olympic Peninsula of Washington State (raining every 20 min.) and snowy Colorado and have never had one speck of rust on any rifle because I took 5 min. to wipe it down. And this was after un-saddeling horses,gathering firewood,cooking,etc. I personally take the time caring for my hard-earned,cherished rifle because,I guess,that's the way I am.  Kix

Offline Zachary

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2009, 11:00:26 AM »
I have both stainless and blued guns, and take care of them the same.  Stainless is not rust-proof.  However, when hunting out in extreme terrain on "extreme" hunts - i.e. in Alaksa (or anywhere else) where you are really outdoors for days on end, and it's rainy and you just can't dry down your gun for whatever reason, then stainless helps.  However, I have never been on such a hunt for such an extended period of time because I always get back to camp in a nice warm cabin, so my guns get dried down.

Bottom line is, except for extreme situations, there really is little to no reason (in my opinion) to have rust on your blued rifle. 

Zachary

Offline foto

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2009, 06:27:59 PM »
Real stainless steel doesn't rust. While alot of you see rust on stainless guns I doubt anyone has ever seen anything other than surface rust. When you see rust on the surface of stainless steel its probably not from the stainless steel itself but from the tools that were used to make it. While the steel in the gun was made from stainless the tools used to machine the stainless imparted carbon into the surface of the stainless under great heat and pressure. You will sometimes see cheap stainless countertops in workshops or kitchens that will rust because the rollers used to make them were made out of a carbon steel. Stainless steel works alot like aluminum in that it forms a protective oxide over itself that prevents further oxidation and the oxide that it forms is not red. If its red then its usually from the tools used to make it. Same reason why when your white car gets hit by blue car you usually see blue paint allover the area and embedded in the paint.  Now just imagine if that blue paint started rusting. Thats how it was explained to me. Hope it helps.

Offline S.B.

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2009, 02:13:14 AM »
Real stainless steel doesn't rust. While alot of you see rust on stainless guns I doubt anyone has ever seen anything other than surface rust. When you see rust on the surface of stainless steel its probably not from the stainless steel itself but from the tools that were used to make it. While the steel in the gun was made from stainless the tools used to machine the stainless imparted carbon into the surface of the stainless under great heat and pressure. You will sometimes see cheap stainless countertops in workshops or kitchens that will rust because the rollers used to make them were made out of a carbon steel. Stainless steel works alot like aluminum in that it forms a protective oxide over itself that prevents further oxidation and the oxide that it forms is not red. If its red then its usually from the tools used to make it. Same reason why when your white car gets hit by blue car you usually see blue paint allover the area and embedded in the paint.  Now just imagine if that blue paint started rusting. Thats how it was explained to me. Hope it helps.

?????, I don't think this is correct.
Steve
"The Original Point and Click Interface was a Smith & Wesson."
Life member of NRA, USPSA,ISRA
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Offline MZ5

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2009, 06:32:24 AM »
While the steel in the gun was made from stainless the tools used to machine the stainless imparted carbon into the surface of the stainless under great heat and pressure.

By carbon, I assume you mean iron... ?  Carbon doesn't 'rust,' but iron does.  And, as has been pointed out previously, some stainless steel alloys have no iron in them at all.  They're not attracted to a magnet, and they will not generate the orange-red iron oxide since there's no iron there.  However, it's only been a few times that I've seen stainless steel of this sort.  Most 'stainless' steel that we see in everyday life seems to have iron in it.

Offline foto

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2009, 09:55:35 AM »
Sorry I said Carbon, the rust is caused by the iron and iron oxides in the the tools used to make it. Point being they are not stainless steel and essentially contaminate the stainless steel. Sorry I said carbon, I am not an engineer or anything, one of my old bosses years ago  made all sorts of stainless steel equipment at another job and related what i said here when I asked him why it rusted. Sorry it was years ago. here is some info on it.

http://www.hitchiner.com/documents/2D4_Rusting_of_Stainless.pdf

Basically its says all cutting tools are made of iron laden steel thus all of the cutting fluids surrounding the metal when its cut have free iron in them that can contaminate the ss. If your stainless gun rusts badly its because they didn't clean it real well after machining it with some special process. Rusting depends on how well you clean the stuff. Also there is free iron in water etc that can contaminate the ss so basically as everyone else said it appears you should clean and oil the thing or it might get some rust. Sorry. Hope it helps.

Offline S.B.

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2009, 11:03:51 AM »
While the steel in the gun was made from stainless the tools used to machine the stainless imparted carbon into the surface of the stainless under great heat and pressure.

By carbon, I assume you mean iron... ?  Carbon doesn't 'rust,' but iron does.  And, as has been pointed out previously, some stainless steel alloys have no iron in them at all.  They're not attracted to a magnet, and they will not generate the orange-red iron oxide since there's no iron there.  However, it's only been a few times that I've seen stainless steel of this sort.  Most 'stainless' steel that we see in everyday life seems to have iron in it.

I agree with this post but, true stainless is very hard to machine.
Steve
"The Original Point and Click Interface was a Smith & Wesson."
Life member of NRA, USPSA,ISRA
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Offline SDS-GEN

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2009, 05:47:10 AM »
Steel is an alloy of iron, all steel (even Stainless) has iron in it.  As I stated before, for a steel to be considered "stainless" it has to have at least 13% chromium in the alloy.  More Chromium (and Vanadium, Molybdenum, etc) makes the steel more rust resistant but also harder to work with.  Rifle parts may be forged with steel tools but they are finished by sanding, polishing and bead blasting with non steel abrasives.  The rust that forms on stainless guns forms in the metal that the gun is made of.  It forms because stainless used in firearms is low chromium content stainless.

Offline MZ5

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2009, 07:45:59 AM »
Steel is an alloy of iron, all steel (even Stainless) has iron in it.

Yes, you are right.  It is not properly called 'steel' if there's no iron in the alloy.  On the other hand, it's not the alloyed iron that causes surface rust; it's free iron, and that frequently/normally comes from the sources the post a few up the thread cited (rollers, tools, etc), and from lack of or improper pickling and/or rinsing & handling, the purpose of which is to remove free iron from the material's surface.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2009, 10:11:20 AM »
After hunting in Canada for 7 days in a marsh everything is soaked including the gun cases . Its a 36 hour drive home + getting gas , sleep and food . So yea i have put the guns away wet . Blue guns are the worst to clean up but so far a little flitz does the trick followed by some Clenzoil or such. I have hunted days with bolt action and lever rifles in the rain and they got a touch of rust also which flitz cleaned off as well . My  guns get used alot abused a little and i make no excuse for it . Hey i have a remington 870 that has been swimming with me several times , for all i know it likes to take a dip now and then we seem to take one every so often . I have been in dove fields that were so hot the gun was covered with sweat . What kind of wussy gun can't take a little water ?
I once read an article in the DGJ about Purdy and how they were made to hunt in the rain and it would not hurt them if they were wiped off and placed in a warm spot to dry . The way they are built its hard for water to enter the action , But they do recommend a good cleanning each season . My S&W gets sweated on everyday and rained on when it rains , and being in the plumbing business it gets wet at other times also .And i clean it every 4 mos. need it or not !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline JPShelton

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2009, 03:26:25 AM »
I spent 15 seasons hunting big game with a 1927 vintage Griffin and Howe built on an 1903 Springfield barreled action.  The previous owner bought the rifle new and hunted with it on five continents.  Nothing he or I exposed the rifle to seemed to phase it much.  Aside from some minor bluing wear from a lifetime of being shot and slid in and out of saddle scabbards and gun cases, it presented as new.

I took it caribou hunting in Canada and used it in California while guiding pig hunters in plain sight of the Pacific Ocean, where the rifle was exposed to salt air and misty fog.  I had no trouble keeping the rifle in good condition.

Because I hadn't seen a need for stainless steel and plastic in my sporting rifles, I improperly used emperical evidence to assume that no one else really needed these materials in their sporting arms, either.  I vowed to the moon and stars that no matter how hard traditional blued steel and wood stocked sporting rifles might be to find in a world filled with stainless and plastic but totally devoid of soul, I would not succumb.  There was the look of the thing that had to be considered and aesthetics were not to be sacraficed.

Then I moved to Oklahoma.

There are summer days here where the temperature exceeds 90 degrees and the relative humidity seems to exceed 90 percent.  I've had the fore-end on an A-5 absorb so much moisture that I couldn't disassemble the gun for cleaning without resorting to the use of a mag cap spanner to get the mag cap and fore-end off.  I noted springs in the trigger group of my 10/22 developing rust from exposure to hot, humid air.  I also noted a dramatic difference in the point of impact of my CZ 550 from the last day of target shooting with it to the opening day of the modern gun deer season -a difference I attributed to firing the last target shot on a hot and humid day and firing at a deer on a very cold and very dry one.

When Savage came out with the Model 14 Classic in .250-3000, I almost succumbed.  Practicality triumphed over pretty, however, and I decided to buy a stainless / synthetic Savage, instead.  Ultimately, I bought a gently used Savage Model 10 in blued steel mated to a synthetic stock with the idea of having the action "Black T'd" and the blued steel .243 barrel re-fitted with a stainless .250 Savage tube.

I own two guns that I've kept for over thirty years primarily because they were gifts from my parents that I received as a teen.  One is a New Haven (Mossberg 500) 20 bore pump action gun and the other is a Ruger 10/22.  Moving out here made me fully appreciate the "modular" design of these arms.  They're both designed to be "slapped together" by relatively unskilled workers and thus they are very easy to detail strip down to the smallest part and equally easy to reassemble after inspection, cleaning, drying, and oiling of those small parts.

This has proven a big deal to me because hot, moist air doesn't just work its magic on the plainly visible outside of a firearm exposed to it, but the inner workings, too.  Having an arm that is easy to take apart, clean, dry, and properly re-oil is a godsend in this climate.

That is what led me to give a Savage bolt gun a try.  It is easy to strip to the smallest components to inspect them, clean them, dry them, and re-oil them.   

Under harsh climatic conditions, it isn't just the outside that is potentially adversely affected, but the little springs and whatnot inside the mechanism, too.  In light of this, the three most "unrefined" arms in my collection are now the ones that get the most use, week in and week out, simply because they're so easy for me to do a thorough job of upkeep on them on my dining room table.  In other words, it ain't just what its made out of that matters, but how its made may well be a factor in one's ability to keep arms running proberly and looking good in the face of climatic adversity.

-JP

Offline teddy12b

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2009, 07:00:12 AM »
Last deer season on opening day it was raining wet & miserable.  I had my stainless puma 92 on my lap that day and couldn't do anything but watch the water bead off of it and the stock.  Had it been a blued rifle it would have started to pit and get rusty.  It really doesn't take much for rust to start.  When I got home, I wiped it all down and have treated the stock with boiled linseed oil.  Stainless isn't foolproof, but it is more durable.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2009, 07:01:46 AM »
Foto i can assure you SS will rust .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline kiddekop

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #48 on: August 16, 2009, 05:54:44 AM »
A GS taught everyone of his customers how to care for their blued steel handguns,shotguns and rifles.First off you only use a scant amount of oil in the interior of weapon NEVER ON THE EXTERIOR oil migrates and will degrade wood stocks! He told us what to use to remove all traces of oil/grease from the exterior of weapons: naptha & or alcohol.All of the blued steel weapons leaving his shop were coated with TREWAX and a can was given to each of his customers who had their weapons reblued or purchased new weapons.I still use it on my weapons and have not had any rust problem even when hunting in rain or snow.He said leave it unbuffed to cut down glare when hunting.I've also used trewax on the exterior of my stainless steel handguns.I use trewax on all of my wood stocks. To refinish wood stocks and remove polyurethane buy Permatex Gasket Remover Spray it softens polyurethane and makes it water soluable  easing removal.

Offline S.B.

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2009, 06:22:05 AM »
GS, girl scout/ guru sensai? You guys text too much.
Steve
"The Original Point and Click Interface was a Smith & Wesson."
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Offline MZ5

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2009, 06:48:47 AM »
GS, girl scout/ guru sensai? You guys text too much.
Steve

HaHaHa!
GunSmith was my first (but not rapid) though, but I like your response much better!  :)

Offline MSC

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2009, 06:32:01 AM »
I work in a machine shop & i can tell you that i have seen many things made out of stainless rust. there are so many differant grades some good some not so go, surgical stainless is probably the best. the part about about checking it with a magnet is true 

Offline ScoutMan

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2009, 10:28:58 AM »
After a soaking, at the end of the day, I wipe all excess water off the exterior of the rifle. Then I go over the whole gun with a hair dryer. Heating up the barrel seems to drive all the moisture out of the barrel channel. Works on the action of the gun too.
If you can get closer, get closer
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2009, 11:08:11 AM »
As others have said Stainless steel firearms will rust. 
They do not have a high amount of Nickel in them.  Toss a fridge magnet on them and they will stick.
If they had enough Nickel and other Alloy metals to make them corrosian resistant then they could not handle the stress of the chamber.
I think a sleeved chamber and barrel around 304 or 316L stainless steel would cost an arma and leg.
With my rifles either blued or stainless I use a spray wax on the gun.  The wax I use is a special one made for the leading edges of aircraft wings Boeshield T-9.
I found that the Spray wax will shed water in the salt flats for duck hunting as well as stand up to the heat of dove hunting in the desert in 118 degree heat and will still bead water when pouring water on the gun to cool it down to be able to hold it.  And since it is a spray, like WD-40 it will go everywhere and dries.  Acts as a Lube and protector.
And when out camp hunting is wet weather for a week it helps keep the creeping crud from forming.
I use it on my shotguns, rifles, and handguns from the desert to the coast to the mountains and it seems to work well.
It will not however protect a bare barrel of a winchester M70 from the cloth seats of a ford F-250 with driving down a dirt road and the truck seat will wear a clean spot in the blueing.
Also firearms that are stored wrong will rust.  while working on different projects I was going to refinish an old Army -Navy single shot 12ga and just had it in the garage in for a couple years. and it has a full coat of rust.  Guns that live in the garage, or the Barn tend to get surface rust and then it grows.

Offline jmayton

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2009, 04:59:11 AM »
mcwoodduck, I've used T-9 for years.  First discovered it working on bicycles and use it for every non-bearing moving surface.  I lube my reloading presses with it and have used it all over my vehicles.  I never thought of using it on my firearms.  It makes perfect sense though, T-9 is about the best lube/cleaner/protectant I've ever seen.

Offline S.B.

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2009, 06:18:58 AM »
mcwoodchuck, sound expensive? I doubt you have to spend a lot of money to protect your firearms if you just take care of them right after getting wet?
Steve
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Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2009, 11:34:11 AM »
After a soaking, at the end of the day, I wipe all excess water off the exterior of the rifle. Then I go over the whole gun with a hair dryer. Heating up the barrel seems to drive all the moisture out of the barrel channel. Works on the action of the gun too.

  GREAT idea!  Next time i go out in the bush, i'll pack in my generator, some gas and a hair dryer with me...  lol

  DM

Offline Brithunter

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2009, 11:33:45 PM »
LOL thanks for the laughs  :D

Stainless is called so because it stains less than carbon steel.

What we call stainless steel is broken down into three groupings:-

1) Ferritic

2) Martensitic

3) Austenitic

   Their uses are different and using the wrong type in the wrong application could be a disaster waiting to happen. Some stainless steels are brittle others are soft like that used in table cutterly. Not all stainless steels are non magnetic  ;).

  For more reading about them try here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel

  Oh as for cutting stainless in manufacturing, it's mostly done with carbide or ceramic tools which cannot transfer iron to the steel as they have none  ;).

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2009, 03:19:38 AM »
By carbon, I assume you mean iron... ?  Carbon doesn't 'rust,' but iron does.  And, as has been pointed out previously, some stainless steel alloys have no iron in them at all.  They're not attracted to a magnet, and they will not generate the orange-red iron oxide since there's no iron there.  However, it's only been a few times that I've seen stainless steel of this sort.  Most 'stainless' steel that we see in everyday life seems to have iron in it.

Actually, ALL stainless steel contains iron.  It also contains nickel, sulphur and other things in varying amounts, but the PRIMARY ingredient is …. iron.

The fact that stainless is (by and large) not attracted to a magnet has to do with the chemical composition of the metal and its structure.  But it is still a steel and steel is made with iron as the primary ingredient.
Coyote Hunter
NRA, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Rifles are tools-they get wet- so what?
« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2009, 06:39:08 AM »
mcwoodchuck, sound expensive? I doubt you have to spend a lot of money to protect your firearms if you just take care of them right after getting wet?
Steve
Not really about $12 - 15 a can.  If you can find it at a local airport that has jets and gets cold they sell it in a hand pump gallon jug.  For not that much.
As far as taking care of my guns, I do.  I use the T-9 before to protect them.  Even just going Duck hunting out at the Salton Sea will eat blueing.
When I first got my Benelli Nova.  I cleaned it, shot it and took it out for a first dunck hunt.  It was a cold wet windy day ;D  Perfect duck weather.
At the end of the day I grabbed a clean towel and wipped down my gun as best as I could.  there was water and mud on the gun.
The three hour ride back including a stop for dinner and I took the gun out of the sleeve and parts were rusty.  Because the gun is plastic I never thought to spray the plastic gun down with the T-9.  After tearing apart the Plastic gun and cleaning off all the surface rust.  Again for a DAY of being in the weather I was getting surface rust on the gun.  Nasty salt infused rain.