Savage accutrigger/marlin xl7 trigger- Safety or pacifier for lawyers

[Coyote Hunter]

per the theme of this discussion, thats why I own revolvers and not semiauto pistols


what year 700's are defective?  do I need to send mine back? I have a couple 700 MTN LSS mfd probably in 06-07 or so...

John -

I don't know the exact years that were affected, but there were many - fom the 1950's through at least 1975 when additional factory checks were made (although no design change was implemented at that time or for years afterwards).  Remington can tell you, but I think the time period for free warranty work may have expired.

[Skunk]

Remington can tell you, but I think the time peiod for free warranty work may have expired.

Looks like it has been extended through Dec. 2009. Here's the link from Remington. John, the link explains which model 700s were effected:

http://www.remington.com/safety/safety_center/safety_modification_program/

[Augustis]

Remington can tell you, but I think the time peiod for free warranty work may have expired.

Looks like it has been extended through Dec. 2009. Here's the link from Remington. John, the link explains which model 700s were effected:

http://www.remington.com/safety/safety_center/safety_modification_program/

John/Skunk

The primary intent, and sole purpose of "Safety Modification Program" is ONLY to deactivate the bolt lock feature to allow the gun handler to unload the arm with the safety in the ON safe position. This change mitigates the potential for a safety induced discharge (FSR) at the onset of the unloading process because you are no longer forced to release the safety to initiate bolt lift. This modification does not in any way shape or form remedy the main contributor of the malfunction itself... the trigger connector or the "fail to reset possibility" to a secure sear engagement condition.
    If you have a rifle with a connector design fire control,  the potential STILL exists for a malfunction that could result in an inadvertent discharge without trigger contact to initiate the firing process. The only way to truly remedy the situation is to replace the fire control with a conventional fire control with a one piece trigger design, after market or the X Mark Pro.

Because it bears directly on the subject of this thread, the X Mark was reported to be developed to address "the body of litigation" against the Company & the connector design fire control according to one or more Remington employee's. Maybe Swamp will confirm this because he seems to be in the loop, or at leased his arguements paralell those of Remington council defensive posture...

Aug ><>

Reason for Edit: Clarification of detail.

[Skunk]

Oh, OK, thanks Augustis for pointing that out. Brother Augustis, it's good to have you around for your input on the Rem Trigger issues.

[R.W.Dale]

back on topic for a moment.

I won't speak for the Marlin trigger as I have no experience with it. But the Savage accu trigger blade is a completely superfluous attachment that when removed does not negatively impede the function of the trigger or overall safety of the rifle in any way. Most of us die hard savage aficionados simply remove the blade giving us a nice (not dangerous) trigger pull without any glock funkiness, yet retaining the same level of safety we've made due with in the past century of bolt actions.

The old Savage triggers were fully adjustable and I took one down to about 3 pounds.  One day I had a cartridge that wouldn’t chamber and I removed it and chambered a different cartridge.  In the process I had worked the bolt back and forth several times, gloves on, and may have bumped the trigger.  When I later slipped the safety off I was surprised to hear a “Ka-BOOM” even though the gloves were then off and my finger was not on the trigger.  That was the only problem Iever had with that trigger but once was once too many. 

so you didn't know what you were doing, adjusted the sear engagement far too low to prevent release when jarring the bolt and now we all need a glock blade to keep from shooting ourselves. Flawless logic THIS is why in the decade before the accu trigger Savage had to eliminate the sear adjustment from their previously EXCELLENT triggers

The new AccuTrigger would have prevented that incident, as would Marlin’s Pro-Fire trigger.

So would reading the manual and or not messing with something you didn't understand. What the design of the accu trigger does is prevent folks like yourself from messing with things they shouldn't. But the blade plays no part in this aspect.
[/u]

First, they are not “extra triggers”, they are safety blades which help prevent accidental trigger release, especially with triggers that are tuned for a light pull.

So 2.5lbs is too light of a trigger to not require a blade? I guess I need to throw out about a half dozen rifles I own because they're far too dangerous to use.

About the only rifle this would apply to would be the LRPV which goes well under 1lb. But honestly how many folks are loading a 15lb single shot bench rifle anywhere other than on the bench. To that end I've removed the blades from these as well.

[Coyote Hunter]

...

The old Savage triggers were fully adjustable and I took one down to about 3 pounds.  One day I had a cartridge that wouldn’t chamber and I removed it and chambered a different cartridge.  In the process I had worked the bolt back and forth several times, gloves on, and may have bumped the trigger.  When I later slipped the safety off I was surprised to hear a “Ka-BOOM” even though the gloves were then off and my finger was not on the trigger.  That was the only problem Iever had with that trigger but once was once too many. 

so you didn't know what you were doing, adjusted the sear engagement far too low to prevent release when jarring the bolt and now we all need a glock blade to keep from shooting ourselves. Flawless logic THIS is why in the decade before the accu trigger Savage had to eliminate the sear adjustment from their previously EXCELLENT triggers

The new AccuTrigger would have prevented that incident, as would Marlin’s Pro-Fire trigger.

So would reading the manual and or not messing with something you didn't understand. What the design of the accu trigger does is prevent folks like yourself from messing with things they shouldn't. But the blade plays no part in this aspect.
[/u]

Over the years I have polished, adjusted, tuned and otherwise worked on countless triggers.  In every case I make sure I understand how the trigger works and what acceptable limits are before working on the trigger.  Your assumption that I didn’t know what I was doing is completely erroneous.  It was adjusted down to about 3 pounds without touching the sear engagement.

First, they are not “extra triggers”, they are safety blades which help prevent accidental trigger release, especially with triggers that are tuned for a light pull.

So 2.5lbs is too light of a trigger to not require a blade? I guess I need to throw out about a half dozen rifles I own because they're far too dangerous to use.

About the only rifle this would apply to would be the LRPV which goes well under 1lb. But honestly how many folks are loading a 15lb single shot bench rifle anywhere other than on the bench. To that end I've removed the blades from these as well.

Damn touchy, aren’t you?  I didn’t say 2.5 pounds was too light, I said “they are safety blades which help prevent accidental trigger release, especially with triggers that are tuned for a light pull”.  You may not consider 2.5 pounds a light pull but most people I know do and I’m pretty sure Savage does as well.  It may not be light for YOU, but it is damn sure light for most folks, especially those who use factory triggers set to pull weights prescribed by lawyers.  I know I don’t want any of my big game rifles at 2.5 pounds.  Target rifles that get loaded singly only when ready to fire are a different beast altogether and even though 2.5 pounds could be considered heavy in that rather rarified world, in the general scope of things from a manufacturer’s perspective, 2.5 pounds is indeed “light”.  As it is by my standards.

Feel free to remove the blade on your rifles – I don’t care one way or another but in any case it does not in any way affect the manufacturer’s original purpose for including them – which was to “help prevent accidental trigger release, especially with triggers that are tuned for a light pull”, with light being defined by the manufacturer, not you.

[nomosendero]

Of course everyone has their own tastes or preference, but I simply don't see the problem & for me I can say 100% that the extra feature has no adverse effect in any conceivable way. I just tested a Marlin & it was a non-issue, as in ZERO.

[R.W.Dale]

Damn touchy, aren’t you?

wow I mean wow! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I'm not the own who told the OP he had his head up his ass in the first sentence of my reply yet I'm the touchy one. And you folks wonder why nobody visits GBO anymore.

which was to “help prevent accidental trigger release, especially with triggers that are tuned for a light pull”, with light being defined by the manufacturer, not you

 Here's where you're in error as the min trigger pull is still dictated by the manufacturer even without the blade 2.5 lbs is still as light as an accu triggger will go. Now tell me 2.5lbs to 6lbs is too light for mere mortals. Just because it can be adjusted that light doesn't mean you necessarily should. Your ND is prime example of this.

How low will remington's or CZ's trigger go? Do they have a glock blade?

[melloman]

Coyote Hunter says he has worked on "countless triggers". There are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on all earth's beaches and deserts. So those "countless" triggers must be more than all the grains of sand otherwise maybe someone could count them. How can Coyote Hunter be so smart that he knows ahead of time how light he can make a trigger without taking the trigger past the safe point and THEN realizing he went too light? Krochus, thank you for saying what I couldn't quite decide how to say. I am the person who started this blog and I don't think I have my head up my ass.

[mjbgalt]

i guess no one is allowed to use generalizations anymore. coyote hunter, go back and count every trigger you ever worked on. we apparently now need an exact number so we can get the point you were trying to make.

tired of small minded people jamming up the works here, its why sites fall apart.

coyote hunter is one of only a few making any sense in this thread. he has stated his thoughts. don't like his thoughts? get over it.

the point is that everyone likes something different in a trigger. he is not the first to get off track in this thread.

if you disagree, good for you. that's usually where mature adults leave it.

stop your bitching and go spend more time behind the trigger than in front of this screen.

-Matt

[R.W.Dale]

somewhat back on topic,


When you work on a trigger it's critical that you do a few bump and slam drills to make certain everything is kosher. Chamber empty striker cocked safety off, bounce the rifle off the buttpad a few times slap on the underside of the forearm and SLAM the bolt home a few times and recheck to see if the safety will still engage.

It's also critical on an old three screw Savage trigger that with the stock return spring retain a certain level of preload
DO NOT ATTEMPT TO SET THE SAVAGE FACTORY TRIGGER BELOW THREE POUNDS. SLAM FIRES AND OTHER TYPES OF ACCIDENTAL
DISCHARGES ARE PROBABLE IF THIS GENERAL RULE IS IGNORED.
http://www.varminthunters.com/tech/savage110trigger.html

The old Savage triggers were fully adjustable and I took one down to about 3 pounds. 

So in other words "about" three lbs on a trigger that should never be set below three pounds is too darn close. I wonder just how accurate the "about" trigger scale used on Coyotes trigger was? Since he's done "countless triggers" I'm sure he has one.

tired of small minded people jamming up the works here, its why sites fall apart.

coyote hunter is one of only a few making any sense in this thread. he has stated his thoughts. don't like his thoughts? get over it.

yeah because telling folks they have their heads up their asses in line one of reply one is a great way to expand the member base. Coyote can stand up for his own inexcusable behavior he doesn't need your assistance and quite frankly I wouldn't want to lower myself to his level by defending his behavior. Of course not being in the "good Ol boys club" here on GBO I'm automatically the one in error and am viewed as the one with the problem.

The reason this thread had degenerated is it comes out that Coyote Hunter was the one who had his "head firmly planted in a dark and smelly place." by setting his trigger too dam low to be safe BECAUSE he didn't know what he was doing

[mjbgalt]

yeah, youre right. there is some memo that says as a mod i have to side with whomever ISN'T you.

must have forgotten. or maybe i am a mod and am supposed to try to keep things from totally unraveling into crap.

-Matt

[melloman]

I make a trigger lighter in stages. Mostly I try to rid a trigger of a long gritty travel before release. The actual poundage is not as important as a short smooth travel and release. I also try to bump the triggers release with the safety off. I use a cautious approach and perhaps take a trigger to a certain point and then after weeks come back and ease it a little finer until a point comes where it is safe and I am happy at the same time. I don't remember ever trying to cut things so fine that I ever ruined the parts and had to replace them. I started this because I felt that center "safety" was excessive or unnecessary and from some comments I now know there are folks that do fine without them.

[Coyote Hunter]

somewhat back on topic,
When you work on a trigger it's critical that you do a few bump and slam drills to make certain everything is kosher. Chamber empty striker cocked safety off, bounce the rifle off the buttpad a few times slap on the underside of the forearm and SLAM the bolt home a few times and recheck to see if the safety will still engage.

Apparently you labor under the erroneous misconception that I DIDN’T do this???   Not only did I check it thoroughly when I did the original work, I rechecked it thoroughly again after the FSR incident.  I was never able to recreate the problem or cause any others. 

It's also critical on an old three screw Savage trigger that with the stock return spring retain a certain level of preload
DO NOT ATTEMPT TO SET THE SAVAGE FACTORY TRIGGER BELOW THREE POUNDS. SLAM FIRES AND OTHER TYPES OF ACCIDENTAL
DISCHARGES ARE PROBABLE IF THIS GENERAL RULE IS IGNORED.
http://www.varminthunters.com/tech/savage110trigger.html

That is a good document and one of several I referred to before doing the work.  I have hardcopy versions of document and similar documents for Ruger and Remington available at my workbench, as well as a variety of other documents and books both general and specific with regard to the matter at hand.  As with handloading manuals, I tend to believe more information is better.

The old Savage triggers were fully adjustable and I took one down to about 3 pounds.

So in other words "about" three lbs on a trigger that should never be set below three pounds is too darn close. I wonder just how accurate the "about" trigger scale used on Coyotes trigger was? Since he's done "countless triggers" I'm sure he has one.

You would be correct in thinking I used a trigger scale.  Two, actually, using multiple tests with each one and comparing the results.  One is of my own design and is very accurate as it relies on actual weight rather than springs or digital sensors.  I can trickle in sand or shot a little at a time and weigh the load after the trigger releases.

Three pounds on the 110 triggers provides an adequate safety margin which is why it is the recommended minimum.  If the triggers were unsafe at that level the recommended minimum would be significantly higher. 

For what it is worth, the trigger was adjusted down from about 5-1/2 pounds.  When I say “down to about three pounds” it was closer to 3-1/8, which is my target weight for most of my hunting rifles.  That’s hardly an unsafe level for that trigger.

tired of small minded people jamming up the works here, its why sites fall apart.
coyote hunter is one of only a few making any sense in this thread. he has stated his thoughts. don't like his thoughts? get over it.

yeah because telling folks they have their heads up their asses in line one of reply one is a great way to expand the member base. Coyote can stand up for his own inexcusable behavior he doesn't need your assistance and quite frankly I wouldn't want to lower myself to his level by defending his behavior. Of course not being in the "good Ol boys club" here on GBO I'm automatically the one in error and am viewed as the one with the problem.

The reason this thread had degenerated is it comes out that Coyote Hunter was the one who had his "head firmly planted in a dark and smelly place." by setting his trigger too dam low to be safe BECAUSE he didn't know what he was doing

OK, my apologies to melloman – my statement was out of line and I could have made my point without using it. 

Still, his suggestion to put epoxy on the face of the trigger was dumber than a box of bricks in my mind, yet he was complaining about the design of the AccuTrigger?

For some reason you think I set the trigger too low, although it was within normally acceptable pull weights and no malfunction could be induced.  You contend I didn’t know what I was doing but the truth is YOU don’t know what I was doing or details about how it was done or tested or much of anything else related to the matter except for the minimal information I’ve provided here.

By the way, I am hardly one of the “good Ol boys club" on this site.  The Bearded One threatened to kick me off the site for having the temerity to challenge statements he made in various threads.

[melloman]

Coyote Hunter, apology accepted. I am sorry for what I said regarding your "countless" trigger jobs.
I suggested using epoxy as a way to fill the void left after removing the central "safety" trigger so a person didn't end up with two skinny side by side triggers. I have never done the epoxy fix but speculated it might work. I wouldn't want to use much epoxy to make the trigger weigh a lot more than normal.
If a person new to trigger work wants to try it they should try to read a tutorial with pictures that will help them learn all they can about a specific trigger and then proceed with patience and an eye for small detail. A magnifying head set helps a lot. Doing a nice trigger upgrade can be very satisfying and save money.