Author Topic: Beeswax Waterproofing  (Read 2644 times)

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Offline Mry75

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Beeswax Waterproofing
« on: June 07, 2009, 07:38:46 PM »
Hello all, first let me say that I enjoyed reading every page of this forum. I've been shooting C & B revolvers for about 17 years now and I'm still learning new things. There's a great deal of good info here, thank you to you all for contributing. I thought I'd add a little from a recent experiment of mine. After reading somewhere about how soldiers during the Cival War would waterproof their guns by dripping wax on the caps and chamber mouths, I thought I'd try it. I've always kept my stainless .44 New Model Army loaded and on the nightstand, often for months at a time during humid Indiana summers. Often, I'll carry it in my saddlebags while on a motorcycle trip, so the idea of waterproofing interested me. Sometimes I've loaded with wads, sometimes with lube over the chambers. (A variation of Gatofeo's using crisco instead of tallow, and adding olive oil untill it's soft enough to spread over the chambers with my finger.) I have noticed that after firing a load that has sat for some time, the report sounds a little muffled. Although, I've never had it fail to fire, I suspect that the powder was getting a bit contaminated. (I use Goex FFFg, usually 28 grains with 15 grains of corn meal filler.) Anyway, I decided to try the wax waterproofing. First I melted some beeswax and dripped it over the caps on an UNLOADED cylinder. I quickly learned that this makes one hell of a mess and I had some caps fail to fire because of the wax build-up. This won't do for a gun I carry and I doubt it would've done for a soldier with his life at stake. I found it works much better to knead a small amount of beeswax between your fingers to soften it, roll it into a small "snake" and loop it around the nipple and cap. You can mold it right to the nipple and cap with your finger, scraping away any excess with your fingernail. An added bonus is that you can do this as your last stage of loading, instead of dripping wax on you caps and then loading the cylinder as I read it was done in the old days. A little more beeswax kneaded soft can be pressed over the chambers, sealing it up good and tight. Any of you that use your guns in a damp enviroment, may wanna give it a whirl. I noticed while firing the caps that I'd dripped the wax on, that the wax also seemed to catch the cap fragments. Anyone shooting Cowboy Action shoots would have less worry of a jam due to stray cap fragments. I'd love to hear any feedback anyone may have on this topic, and I hope some of you find the info helpfull. One thing I have wondered is, will there be a noticable difference in the fouling with the wax instead of the lube I have been using, I still haven't fired it yet. I'll let you know how that works out. Good luck and safe shooting.

Offline Elijah Gunn

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2009, 02:46:14 AM »
I read about this several years ago. If I remember right the guy who wrote the article melted the beeswax over the caps, and cylinder mouths. I think he had to carefully scrape the wax off of the face of the cap or else the wax would cushion the blow of the hammer enough to make cap detonation unreliable.
I vividly remember the picture of the gun being held underwater in a stream as the final test of this method. I think the author said he kept it underwater a full 3 seconds.(or was it 30 seconds?)
Please do let us know how your experiment turns out.
What your doing sounds reasonable to me though.
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Offline longcaribiner

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2009, 08:09:02 AM »
I also read about such a practice to waterproof c&b revolvers.  I've never felt the need to waterproof one, although I did see a neat trick for the cap  and nipple.   The cylinder was permitted to get warm, not hot and  wax stylus (a crayon will do but is a bit fat) was used rubbed around each nipple down near the shoulder, depositing a thin layer of melted wax.  When the percussion cap is pressed onto the nipple, the innner edge of the cap is pushed into the wax.  Now it may not be waterproof, but it is water resistant.  I've done the same with side lock rifles for hunting in the rain.   

I usually use some stuff called Pistol Patch to seal the chambers over the balls.  It was sold by Blue and Gray products years ago.  I'm down to my last half dozen tubes of the stuff.  It is about the consistency of tooth paste, and comes in a large tube.  It holds up better then shortening on a summer day, but is only slightly less messy.  The idea of bees wax on the chamber is good, but I load to shoot immediately and often shoot 50 to 100 shots at a range session.  On the other hand, for carrying, I can see the bees wax method as offerring some advantages.     


Offline Tryit 1

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2009, 10:16:16 AM »
Mry75, the method of water proofing described is almost identical to the method that a man in his 80's showed me in the early 1950's. He also kneaded a small ball of bees was and wrapped the cap and tamped it firmly around the base of the nipple and cap. He used a heated knife to smooth over the ball and melt the wax to the walls of the cylinder. Later in the 1950's another friend of my mothers had my father and I unload her grandfathers pistol that was loaded in 1871 and treated in this manner. We had instant firing for 4 cylinders, 1 hang fire and a failure of one cap. The cap was replaced and it fired. I seal my little 1849 pocket model in this manner and hike and camp with it. I fire off the loads yearly clean reload and rewax. Never failed me yet. Tryit.

Offline Mry75

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2009, 02:24:28 PM »
Well, today I had the chance to test out the waterproofing experiment. I used my stainless steel Pietta New Model Army, loaded with 30 grains of FFFg, .457 round ball, about 15 grains of corn meal filler, and beeswax over the chambers and around the caps. The lube I normally use is a mix of beeswax, parrafin, crisco, and olive oil. I added unough olive oil that it's easy to dig from the tub and apply with my finger, but still kind of stiff. Much better than Bore Butter or plain crisco, but a little still tends to get blown out of the chambers and onto the gun from the nieghboring chambers. The first round I fired to see how the beeswax compared. It stayed in place and was very clean, and on clean-up afterwards the bore seemed a bit cleaner too. Unless I'm absolutley worried about totally sealing the chamber mouths, I'll probably keep using my lube just because it's cheap and easy. I've still got a bunch of it. After the first shot I put the waterproofing to the test. I removed the cylinder between each shot and soaked it in a tub of water for 5 minutes, just to see how long I could leave it soak before it failed. Every chamber fired flawlessly. The last chamber I let soak a little longer. By the time I fired the last round, it had been under water for a total of 30 minutes. It fired instantly and I couldn't detect any difference from a freshly loaded chamber. I'm impressed with the results. Obviously, if it can hold up to being submerged for 30 minutes, I'll have nothing to worry about carrying it through humid summers or rainy weather. Any time that I plan to carry my revolver loaded for an extended period of time or in bad weather, I'll be sealing it with beeswax.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2009, 04:26:25 PM »
Well, today I had the chance to test out the waterproofing experiment.

That is REALLY interesting!   :o  Thanks for sharing you test!   ;D
Richard
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Offline Elijah Gunn

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2009, 02:08:39 AM »
Thanks from me too!
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Offline Gatofeo

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2009, 05:15:04 PM »
Very interesting. Very well done.
Some years ago I read the account of a Civil War veteran who said he dripped wax (beeswax?) over the caps and around the ball after loading.
Later, I heard of beeswax softened by the heat of the hand, then moulded around the capped nipple.
In my own experiment years ago, loaded the carbon steel cylinder of my 1851 Navy and left it outdoors from about April through September.
I used Goex FFFG black powder, a thin wax wad cut from a milk carton on top of the powder, a greased felt wad, a .380 inch ball, and a CCI No. 11 cap. I formed a tiny beeswax "turd" and ran it around the cap, right where it meets the nipple. Then, I flattened the beeswax tight against the junction with the blade of a small screwdriver, as I recall. Or perhaps it was a stick; I can't recall.
Anyway, when fired months after loading every round appeared to emit the same, powerful sound. I didn't own a chronograph at the time and couldn't measure velocities.
I didn't dunk my cylinder in water, as you did, and that makes your report all the more interesting.

I keep some waxed paper wads in my shooting box, cut from milk cartons, to act as a barrier against moisture or grease from the wad contaminating the powder. A slightly oversized wad will give a good fit.

Years ago, in the early 70s, I soaked wads in straight paraffin or candlewax. It wasn't much for keeping fouling soft, but I'm sure it was a good barrier against moisture creeping in around the ball.
However, a proper, oversized ball should allow any moisture past it, unless the chamber is out of round. Perhaps the practice is moot.

As each year goes by, I am just amazed at the amount of tinkering that can be done with cap and ball revolvers. And most of that tinkering uses materials that were fully available to the old-timers: thick, waxed paper, felt wads, oversized balls, beeswax, etc.
Perhaps if we went back in time and talked to the old timers they'd look at us and reply, "We been doing that for years! Where you been?"
 ;D
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Offline Mry75

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2009, 11:34:56 AM »
I've also wondered if it was necessary with a tight fitting ball. Being as I don't use felt wads I'd just as soon carry a chunk of beeswax than a tub of lube, crisco, lard, tallow, or whatever else to apply to the chambers. I'll use the lube at home, but if I'm packin the gun somewhere, A powder flask with about a 30 gr spout, some roundball, a medicine bottle of corn meal with a 9mm shell casing for a measure, caps, a chunk of beeswax and a pocket knife should be all I need to keep me going. I've cleaned my gun more than one time with just a stick and a torn rag and some water or spit. Lol, maybe that's why my gun's stainless.

Offline simonkenton

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2009, 12:51:47 PM »
Submerged for 30 minutes, and it still fired! Very impressive!

I keep a pair of .44s loaded in my house. I am in the humid NC mountains.
I use 30 gr of fffg black powder and a .457 ball, no wad.
I just did an experiment where I kept my Uberti cap and ball Cattleman loaded for 3 years. I keep it in a drawer. I live near the river and the fog comes into my house all night long, very humid in the summer.
Of course, with my wood stove, very dry in winter!
I use no sealant around the caps or balls.
I took the Uberti out a month ago and fired it. All five cylinders fired fine. The balls blew right through a pine 2x6.
I reloaded right away and fired it again, the fresh load felt just as powerful as the three year old one.

If kept inside, I don't see how moist air can get past a tight round ball.
I am making note of your beeswax method, that is very impressive.
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Offline simonkenton

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2009, 12:02:05 AM »
Three decades ago, due to my influence, my older brother got interested in black powder.
He bought a brass framed Italian cap and ball repro, and a few cheap derringers. He bought a tin of CCI #11 caps.

Brother moved out of state and didn't mess with muzzleloading for years.
Six months ago, he moved back to the area. He came up here two months ago, and brought a cardboard box with all his muzzleloading stuff.
I assured him that the black powder was still good, but I wasn't sure about the caps.
We loaded the pistol up using his powder and caps. It fired fine, all 6 cylinders.
We wound up shooting 5 cylinders without a misfire.
I don't know how long caps will last, but CCI caps are as good as new after 31 years.
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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2009, 06:52:30 AM »
2 questions for all y'all...

would the 50/50 Bee's wax & ? mix be easier to apply then streight b'wax, and
would the 50/50 mix be better then streight b'wax at keeping the fouling in the barrel soft ?   ???
Richard
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Offline Mry75

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2009, 06:21:21 AM »
I'd say yes on both counts but I don't know how well a 50/50 mix would seal against water. I've thought about trying my usual lube mix over the chamber and just using wax on the caps. With a tight fitting ball I think that would work well. Anything softer is easier to apply but sraight beewax wasn't too bad in my opinion. As far as fouling goes, my gun's always cleaned up fairly easy with a few tight fitting patches pushed through it no matter how I loaded it. If I plan on doing alot of shooting I prefer a mix. If I pack it on a trip, I'll take a chunk of beeswax just because I know it will work and it's not as messy to carry or use and it's not gonna spill out into my saddlebags.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2009, 07:27:53 AM »
Thanks!   ;D

I'm going from my old memory here so please help me out.  Wasn't there an NRA or NMLRA Bee's wax mix they (whomever "they" were) recommended?  50/50 mix of Bee's wax and something else?  What was the something else they mixed the bee's wax with?   ???  Seems like a lot of people have their own method.  :-\
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Offline Mry75

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2009, 07:32:38 AM »
Your probably thinking of Old Zip Patch Grease. I believe it's a 50/50 mix of beeswax and mutton tallow. You can get mutton tallow from Dixie Gun Works for I believe about $3.50 for about 12 oz. Not sure how correct those numbers are, but I plan on getting some and trying it myself.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2009, 07:40:11 AM »
Thanks Mry.  Mutton tallow huh?   :-\  Sounds like sumpin I might cook in...  :P

I wonder how a 50/50 or maybe 75/25 mix of bee's wax and crisco would work as a chamber sealant/bore lubricator?
Richard
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Offline Mry75

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2009, 08:07:22 AM »
Crisco is a decent sub for tallow. Only one way to find out how different ratios compare. Mix some up and let us know. Any hobby store that sells candle making supplies should have beeswax, or find a local bee keeper. I've also heard beef tallow and bacon grease, but I've also heard that these have a much higher salt content and could be more corrosive. I don't know, I've not tried any of them yet. Mutton tallow was the way back in the day. I'm sure they had good reason to prefer it, so that's what I'd stick to. I've got a tub of lube I mixed up years ago, and to the best of my memory, it's a mix of beeswax, canning parrafin, crisco, and olive oil. I kept adding crisco and olive oil untill it was soft unough to easily dig out from the tub and apply with my finger or a knife blade. It was another one of my experiments. I started mixing that batch with the intent to lube some BP cartridge bullets with it and then modified it to use with my C&B guns. Next time I plan to just use beeswax and tallow so if you get there before I do, I'd be interested in your thoughts on it.

Offline bedbugbilly

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2009, 08:17:19 AM »
AtlLaw - a number of years ago I tried cooking up/formulating various lubricants to use not only in the '60 Army that I had, but for musket minie balls, etc.  I tried a combination of beeswax and crisco and it seemed to work out pretty well.  You want the consistency of it to be pliable yet not runny in hot weather - we've alll experienced using crisco over the ball and have seen how well that works in warm weather (smile smile).  I believe that I used about 50% crisco and 50% beeswax - I prepared it by using a double boiler type system - i.e. - getting a large saucepan and filling  it with water, bringing it to a boil and then setting a large tin can in the water and melting the beeswax and crisco together in the can.  The first batch I did, I got impatient and put the melted combination in the tin can into the freezer to solidify it - mistake - it didn't work too well.  I think that because the crisco and the beeswax probably solidify at two different rates that the combination somewhat separated - I'm no chemist but I do kinow that I wasn't satisfied with the results.  The next try, I let it cool at room temperature.  I think that if a person experimented a little with the ratio of crisco to beeswax they could come up with a lube that would work for them in the conditions they are shooting under - either warm or cold weather.  For my musket, I usually lubed the base of the minie ball with plain crisco but by adding a little beeswax to the mix, the crisco wasn't so apt to give problems when shooting in the summer and the fouling was about the same.  I've heard some say that they add a little parafin to the mix as well.  I used old musket cap tins to carry it in and would just take my finger, dip in and smear it across the top of the ball in the cylinder to seal it.  I've never messed with parafin as far as a lube as I was more worried about possibly getting a "waxy" build up from it.  I may be wrong on that though as I've heard others say they have good luck with it.  There have been several combinations suggested on posts on this board - the one utilizing tallow sounds interesting and I think I saw where you can get the tallow from Dixie.  For shooting roundball rifles, I used a water soluable oil from NAPA that someb ody suggested - sorry, I can't remember the name of it as it has been a while.  I mixed the water soluable oil in plastic jug with water - tore strips of patching material (I use ticking for my trade gun and thinner material for my rifle) and soaked the strips in the solution.  I put the strips out in the sun to dry and then rolled them up and stored them in 35 mm film plastic cases.  I'm still using the original batch that I made up as I prepared about 6 yards of material (amazing how many patches you can get out of 6 yards of 60' wide ticking!).  I know this isn't for BP revolvers - just mention it as an example of the variety of things a person can do and use for lubrication.  I'd love to hear from others on what combinations they use of lubricant, etc. in their revolvers.  Everyone has their own tricks!
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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2009, 08:25:35 AM »
Thanks Myr & Billy!
I've already ordered the B'wax and I've always kept Crisco around since I started shooting BP.  Got some parafin also!   ;D  I guess all there is left to do is to start experimenting!

Oh ya, I got to get me a BP revolver first...  :-[

Not to worry!  I'll take care of that in a few days!   :D
Richard
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Offline simonkenton

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2009, 11:01:33 AM »
I have a can of Old Zip from Dixie right here.
It is bee's wax and mutton tallow.
It says it is enough for 1,000 medium sized rifle patches.

This stuff lasts forever, I bought this tin in 1982 and it is still good.
Like someone said, the old timers lived, or died, by their muzzleloaders. They had a choice of all kinds of fat, yet they chose mutton tallow.

This stuff smells good too.
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Offline trainsteeter

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2010, 06:42:14 PM »
I got accused a while ago fer stealin trains and I know how folks in Georgia feel about that, i hope they don,t get mad about my bullet lube I ben buying toliet bowl rings they seem to have a beeswax that works pretty good in my smokepoles.(be sure you by the new ones)

Offline Oldwolf

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2010, 05:04:56 AM »
This is a very interesting thread and a topic I have been thinking about.

Has anyone tried this method that I am considering?
1) Melt wax in a small container.
2) Using tweezers, dip only half of the cap in the molten wax so that a coating will be on the inside of the cap. Probably should not get the cap mixture in the wax though.
3) Dip a ball in the molten wax.
4) Load as usual.

My hope is that the wax inside the cap will seal against the nipple. The wax on the ball might help seal the chamber side a little better than just a shaved ball.

I haven’t tested any of this yet.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2010, 08:03:27 AM »
I got accused a while ago fer stealin trains and I know how folks in Georgia feel about that,

We keep the General all locked up nowadays!   :D 

Quote
I ben buying toliet bowl rings they seem to have a beeswax

I've heard it said they ain't made outa beeswax anymore.   :-\  I looked at some in the hardware store in Marietta and it sure looks like beeswax.  Do you know anyway to tell for sure?  I don't believe I could find anything on the label.   ???
Richard
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Offline trainsteeter

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2010, 05:10:56 PM »
I'm not real used to being honest but to tell the truth I havent bought iny bowl rings in years but I still have a few left, they may not be wax anymore. It's kinda hard to put together a good all round lube.

Offline Gatofeo

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2010, 05:46:04 PM »
Difficult to find real beeswax toilet seals anymore, in my experience.
Years ago, when I bought it, it said "beeswax" somewhere on the package. Today, that word is conspicuously lacking.
Another clue is the consistency and color. The synthetic stuff I've seen is bright yellow. I've never seen beeswax as bright as this stuff, and it has an oily consistency. Beeswax is more sticky than oily.
Smell might be a good indicator, but I never punctured the clear plastic bag to give it a sniff. Real beeswax will have a sweet scent, ranging from faint to nearly a honey scent. I've never smelled the synthetic stuff because I never bothered to buy it.
Beeswax is readily available at Rendezvous and Renaissance Fair events. A call to the local county extension office will sometimes lead you to who rides herd on bees around the area. Crafts stores are not good sources, they typically want too much for what little you get, and it too may be synthetic.
Internet searches can sometimes find it reasonably. I've heard of people lucking out on Ebay.
When I make the lubricant named after me -- Gatofeo No. 1 lubricant -- I use beeswax purchased from Rendezvous. If you look hard enough, you'll find the real stuff. It's worth it.
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Offline simonkenton

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Re: Beeswax Waterproofing
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2010, 04:36:24 PM »
I am from Georgia, and am a Son of Dixie.

Any of y'all Yankees who get a hankering to hi-jack the General. I will personally stick an 1860 Colt Army between your ribs, and fire twice.

In case you don't remember, Mr. Andrews died at the end of a rope.
Aim small don't miss.