Author Topic: "Trapper Handi" rifles..or I guess Carbines. (Read 1879 times)

alan in ga · « **on:** June 08, 2009, 01:15:42 AM »

Another line of posts is talking about shorter barrelled Handi Rifles. Normally I don't go for short barrels but SOME cartridges do fine in 16+" barrels. My .357 Magnum would do fine but so far I've left it at the factory 22"
44 Rem Mag should/would do fine.....what cartridges would you place on the 'acceptable in 16.5" "TRAPPER" barrel Handis??
As an example of a round that may not do well in some aspects....the 7.62x39 when fired in an SKS "Paratrooper" [16" barrel]....it was as though a concussion grenade went off at the muzzle! For such a small case it sure made noise like some magnum round, probably because the Asian military ammo is loaded to high pressures from what I've heard.
Consider muzzle blast from larger powder capacity rounds. The 35 Rem for example did great in a Super 14" barrel I once had. I did not feel that it suffered at all from a short barrel. Surely it would do fine in a 17" Handi barrel [might as well round up the half inch]. Could we settle on 17.0" as the 'trapper' barrel length[?].

tykempster · « **Reply #1 on:** June 08, 2009, 05:38:01 AM »

I think some big cartridge with the Survivor Stock set and the barrel cut to 16.?" would be a dandy Handi.

rickt300 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 08, 2009, 06:44:37 AM »

I chose 17.5 inches for my 44 magnum barrel mainly for balance, to make picking up the scoped gun in one hand easier. I might have left the gun at 22 inches if it had a lighter barrel contour as even at that length it was short enough. I think a shortened 45-70 case that would hold say 40 grains would be a nice round for a shortened handy rifle.

wreckhog · « **Reply #3 on:** June 08, 2009, 07:26:38 AM »

.223/5.56 is popular in 14.5" AR's. I have that caliber in a 16.5" Encore (cut down from 24").

I saw/fondled a real short (16.5"?) Winchester 1885 in 45-70. Price was north of my league ($1k+)

Calibers based on 30-30 and .35 Rem are popular in 14" - 16" barreled TC's.

Shotgun barrels have always worked down to NFA length. The standard issue NYPD shotgun is now a 14" barreled Mossberg.

Would love to see if anyone had luck with 30-06.

Here is an internet 1885 in 30-40.....yes I think that the scope rings + straight stock look silly

eskimo36 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 08, 2009, 07:35:25 AM »

I have a 16.5" 357 Herrett...

rickt300 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 08, 2009, 07:51:17 AM »

I feel that certain cartridges need enough barrel length to keep muzzle blast down. I like 20 inches in 223, 24 inches in 6MM Remington and 22 inches in 30-06.

tykempster · « **Reply #6 on:** June 08, 2009, 07:55:16 AM »

I love that eskimo! What is a 357 Herrett?

knight0334 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 08, 2009, 08:14:07 AM »

Quote from: tykempster on June 08, 2009, 07:55:16 AM

I love that eskimo! What is a 357 Herrett?

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd357herrett.jpg

eskimo36 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 08, 2009, 08:15:17 AM »

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd357herrett.jpg

Historical Notes:

Although the 30 Herrett proved a good handgun hunting cartridge when used in the 10 to 14 inch barrel of the Thompson/Center Contender single shot pistol, it needed to be improved for hunting heavy game. One solution was to neck it up to 357 caliber to take advantage of larger diameter, heavier bullets. This was done in the initial development. However, it appeared desirable to increase the powder capacity of the original 30 Herrett case and so the final design used a case length of 1.75 inches which is .15 inches longer than the 30 Herrett case. The development of the 357 Herrett was the work of Steve Herrett and gun writer Bob Melik. It was introduced as a standard caliber for the Thompson/Center pistol in 1974. Cases are made by reforming, shortening, and necking up 30-30 or 32 Winchester Special brass. The cases are fire formed to the final configuration.

General Comments:

The 357 Herrett is another example of a wildcat cartridge developed for a specific firearm and purpose where there is a gap in the commercial line of ammunition. It was intended primarily as a hunting cartridge for the heavier varieties of medium game, however it has also become quite popular among silhouette shooters. It serves both purposes well, but one must bear in mind that as a hunting cartridge, it delivers ballistics inferior to the 35 Remington fired from a rifle. While it is perfectly capable of handling large animals under average conditions, much depends on the skill of the user, something that is true of all handguns and handgun cartridges when used for hunting. The 357 Herrett is, nevertheless, one of the best of the handgun cartridges for field use on medium or small game and varmints. But all hunting success relies upon either skill or luck.

pitman_mm · « **Reply #9 on:** June 08, 2009, 09:29:14 AM »

Here is my shorty 45-70
[img width= height= alt=image hosting by https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/]https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/images/pitmanmm/handi2.jpg[/img]

canon6 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 08, 2009, 11:40:21 AM »

My shorty 357. 17 1/2 inches Doug

tykempster · « **Reply #11 on:** June 08, 2009, 11:55:04 AM »

Tell me more of the 45-70!

alan in ga · « **Reply #12 on:** June 08, 2009, 12:03:03 PM »

the 45/70 'short' would be nice:
I love to paper patch .458" bullets and have owned 45/70s, 458 Win Mag. and a .458 x 2" American [pre .450 Marlin]. Any lead .452" pistol bullet is just right for paper patching up to about .460". I enjoyed using the Speer 250 gr.SWC swaged meant for the 45 Colt. Expands great when patched and spit out at 1800 fps! At least one 8 pt buck thinks so.
I've considered the 1.5" 45/70......it would be more than enough and a .458" bore for any Handi Trapper or T/C Contender pistol. I had a T/C Super 14 in .45 Win Mag and it was great. However it is a .452" bore and although maybe 'nit picking'...I still like a .458" since I'm already experienced with paper patching for it.

Here is a round I made up:
Would it be a .458 x 1.5" or a "45/50"?

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #13 on:** June 08, 2009, 12:39:29 PM »

I like the look of the 1885 with the strait stock. I agree that the scope rings look silly. But then I like the looks of the 45 colt Handi. And have a Ruger No 3 in 45-70 that has a strait stock and a 20" barrel and over all lenght is that of a standard 10/22.
The only thing i can think of when looking at the short barrels and having had someone cut down a shotgun barrel from 30 inches to 18 and gave me the gun. when the gun had the 30 in barrel it was a great pump shotgun. when they wacked off a foot of steel the butt end became heavy and changed the center of gravity of the scatter gun and made it real awkward to shoulder.
I can see a 22 LR as a 16" rifle as either a garden gun, backpacking, or small game getter in the truck, boat, or quad.
Also a 30-30 or similar for heavy brush. There are a bunch of times I have been way out in the woods and needed to get arouns through or over thickets of thorn brush and big bolt rifle have gotten tangled up in the vines and thorns.

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #14 on:** June 08, 2009, 05:56:00 PM »

45-70 Short= 460 S&W(-.006in).

DP

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** June 08, 2009, 06:06:51 PM »

My thoughts exactly DP!!

Tim

Singleshotsam · « **Reply #16 on:** June 09, 2009, 03:35:45 AM »

I love that 45/70 pitman

tykempster · « **Reply #17 on:** June 09, 2009, 04:50:59 AM »

If you have a single shot action why do you need a shorter shell...? Just load it lighter.

Jeff H · « **Reply #18 on:** June 09, 2009, 01:31:46 PM »

If wishes were Handi's,.... 32-20, 25-20, .256 Win, .32 mag.,.... I think any of those would be great "Handi-Carbines." 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP would be a hoot and could be parent to some creative re-chamber jobs as well, depending upon the twist selected. And, if I didn't have to work for a living, mow the lawn or,.... OK, that's not "Handi-related" but, while I am wishing...

jlwilliams · « **Reply #19 on:** June 09, 2009, 01:54:17 PM »

I think any of the low pressure cartridges would be nice as a 16" 'trapper'. Certainly the pistol rounds. The gain in velocity from 16" to 24" isn't much in cartridges designed for 5" to 7" barrels.

Also,I think the Survivors could be shorter and have tapered or even fluted barrels. That would make them even more convenient to put into a ruck sack or to keep in a light aircraft. With the idea that they are a 'survival' gun, I don't quite see why they come with the bull barrel and no iron sights. Just added weight.

alan in ga · « **Reply #20 on:** June 09, 2009, 03:30:58 PM »

Quote from: tykempster on June 09, 2009, 04:50:59 AM

If you have a single shot action why do you need a shorter shell...? Just load it lighter.

For full or close to max loads the standard 45/70 is fine,,,well 'great' to be specific. But many medium or even warm loads leave a good bit of air space over the powder charge. There is one picture of a Contender pistol in 45/70 that blew up. It was a load of Unique and supposed to be an ok load. Some believe too much air space over slow burning powders can cause detonation in rare instances. Unique should have been fine but it was in a full size 45/70 case. I believe the 458" x 1.5" would be able to be loaded plenty stout enough. We are 'couch dreaming' here so relevance and logic are subject to anything... : )
BTW...what bullet diameter is the .460?

alan in ga · « **Reply #21 on:** June 09, 2009, 03:34:03 PM »

Quote from: rickt300 on June 08, 2009, 07:51:17 AM

I feel that certain cartridges need enough barrel length to keep muzzle blast down. I like 20 inches in 223, 24 inches in 6MM Remington and 22 inches in 30-06.

I fully agree. I would cut a barrel down to 17" only for pistol or low intensity or low powder capacity rounds. The .357 Maximum would be great in a 17" barrel as even the .35 Remington would do fine. I had the 35 Rem in a Super 14 and felt it was getting good 'barrel time' for most of the loads I used. I did load 158 grain bullets a good bit though, not the 200s so much.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #22 on:** June 09, 2009, 03:39:19 PM »

here are my cronograph test for a 45-70

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,160953.0.html

quickdtoo · « **Reply #23 on:** June 09, 2009, 05:36:04 PM »

Quote from: alan in ga on June 09, 2009, 03:30:58 PM

BTW...what bullet diameter is the .460?

.452", in my 20" 460S&W BC carbine, factory Hornady 200gr ammo does just shy of 2900fps.

Tim

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=389

mike@nds · « **Reply #24 on:** June 10, 2009, 02:39:51 AM »

Has anyone doccumented the velocity drop in a .357 max when they cut it down from 22"?

I recently reamed mine to Max, and I don't want to negate the velocity gain that was the purpose of doing it in the first place.

But, I really want to have at least one with a "backpack" length barrel.

alan in ga · « **Reply #25 on:** June 10, 2009, 03:20:59 AM »

Good question. The .357 Max was commonly offered in 10", 12" and 14" barrels IF I am remembering correctly. I would GUESS that a 17" barrel would do fine. If you load it hot the origional 22" barrel might make for better recoil taming with heavier bullets. I know one thing, even the .357 MAGnum is quite loud and nerveracking in a 10" T/C Contender barrel. Guess I'd be interested in chrono tests of the MAX, too.
Easier to cut barrel OFF, than to cut barrel back ON..... : )

quickdtoo · « **Reply #26 on:** June 10, 2009, 05:13:18 AM »

Quote from: mike@nds on June 10, 2009, 02:39:51 AM

Has anyone doccumented the velocity drop in a .357 max when they cut it down from 22"?

Here are some "documented" 14" velocities and 21" data by Hobie!

Tim

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Handgun/Standarddata/35738Cal(9.2mm)/357%20Remington%20Maximum%20page%20105.pdf

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2006_02_01_archive.html

45-70.gov · « **Reply #27 on:** June 10, 2009, 05:20:43 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on June 09, 2009, 05:36:04 PM

Quote from: alan in ga on June 09, 2009, 03:30:58 PM

BTW...what bullet diameter is the .460?

.452", in my 20" 460S&W BC carbine, factory Hornady 200gr ammo does just shy of 2900fps.

Tim

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=389

good gun for trash can varmints
just hose down the red spot where they were.....nothing else to clean up

mike@nds · « **Reply #28 on:** June 10, 2009, 08:08:03 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on June 10, 2009, 05:13:18 AM

Quote from: mike@nds on June 10, 2009, 02:39:51 AM
Has anyone doccumented the velocity drop in a .357 max when they cut it down from 22"?

Here are some "documented" 14" velocities and 21" data by Hobie!

Tim

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Handgun/Standarddata/35738Cal(9.2mm)/357%20Remington%20Maximum%20page%20105.pdf

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2006_02_01_archive.html

Thanks Tim.

I can extrapolate between the two for 17"-18" tubes.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #29 on:** June 10, 2009, 04:59:02 PM »

It's all I can take, and I can't take no more! The 357 synthetic gets cut. Got no front sight anyway, so off with it's nose!