Author Topic: What's the Best .38 Spec. Defense Ammo? (Read 3949 times)

lgm270 · « **on:** September 20, 2003, 11:20:43 AM »

Your thoughts.

DzrtRat · « **Reply #1 on:** September 20, 2003, 03:35:42 PM »

I really don't know which is best. When I carry my .38 airweight, I load it with 125 gr Golden Sabers.

If I ever have to shoot anyone with them, I doubt they'll be able to tell much difference between them and whatever the best one is.

~Rat

Dave in WV · « **Reply #2 on:** September 21, 2003, 11:37:33 AM »

158gr LHP +P with Fed 125gr Nyclad LHP +P second. Dave

Mikey · « **Reply #3 on:** September 22, 2003, 04:59:23 AM »

Igm270: I would go with the heaviest bullet you can find. The 38 Spl loses a lot from a snubnose, esp with the +P lightweights. If you can locate the 158 gn +Ps - get them. If you handload, use any of the Keith style semi-wadcutters in the 158, 168, 173, 180 (if available) or the 200 gn. With the heavier bullets you need not load them fast, just out to factory specs. They are excellent to practice with, easy on you and the gun, and not high pressure. Best ever bowling pin loads I've ever shot. Accurate, too. The heavy-weights have a lot more 'carry' to them than the light-weights. HTH. Mikey.

williamlayton · « **Reply #4 on:** September 23, 2003, 02:26:06 AM »

mikey---or really anybody
i'm not sure i really understand-let me repeat in my own words--if i'm wrong in my understanding just jump in and tell me.
as i see the it the decision comes down to a prefrence between weight and speed. if speed is the decision then a hollow point of some type would be preferred---if choosing a wad or semi wad then speed is an issue only if it is too fast.
would, assuming a double click situation, alternating bullet types be the best choice?
blessings

L-Roy · « **Reply #5 on:** September 23, 2003, 03:36:14 AM »

All regulation, that I am aware of, for the .38/.357 revolvers, comes from the factory as sight settings relative to the old FBI load. Its bullet was the 158 grain semi wadcutter, usually in hollow point configuration.

I've become a heavy bullet proponent as of late. The hollow points just do not open often enough, at handgun velocities, in practical experience, for me to justify their use. Clothing seems to have a peculiar way about it to prevent the hp from opening.

Heavy bullets, vs. light bullets, ALWAYS penetrate as predicted!

Mikey · « **Reply #6 on:** September 23, 2003, 05:18:08 AM »

williamlayton and L-Roy: Wm--good question about alternating bullet types but I'm not so certain I would want to do that. As with L-Roy, I favor the heavier bullet as it will penetrate. The hollowpoint may not function properly, may jam fulla stuff and act as a fmj. Soft points don't always expand and may be turned away by impact so as not to penetrate where you aimed. If someone or something is worth shooting once, he or it may be worth shooting twice and if I have to go to that extreme I'm not so certain I would want the second one to be any less effective (actually, to hurt any less).

L-Roy: as for the sight settings on the 38 snubbies, they are still regulated by the factory for the standard pressure original 158 grain round nose police bullet, I believe. The semiwadcutter design has the same point of impact, just a differently designed bullet. All my fixed sight 38s shoot to point of aim at 50 yds, and are just a couple of inches high at 25. I have tried this with 3 different snubbies and a couple of 4" Model 10s using some old WW 158 gn round nose 'golden bullets' (the old ones), 158 gn reloads using factory velocities and powder charges, wadcutter target loads, and the 200 grain Police load and reloads with factory powder charges (less pressure than even the wadcutter target loads). I believe that most if not all pistols with fixed sights were regulated for point of aim impact at 50 yds, consistent with military requirements, as 50 yds was deemed the maximum effective range for pistols, which included 45s and 38s. I believe. HTH. Mikey.

L-Roy · « **Reply #7 on:** September 23, 2003, 03:32:39 PM »

Relative to a recent experience with a round nose shaped hollow point bullet and its glancing along a ribcage and not penetrating into the chest cavity, I am back with the Keith-style semi-wadcutter HEAVY bullet. It ALWAYS penetrates!

As Mikey says, sometimes hollow points become just ball ammo when the nose cavity fills with "stuff", and the round shape lends them well to glancing when presented with something as an angled rib cage.

If you think about it, if you rotate the rib cage, it will become as a wall of bone, much like a picket fence when viewed from an acute angle.

The Keith-style semi-wadcutter bullets will penetrate from such an angle, due to their sharp edges and continue on to do expected internal damage.

williamlayton · « **Reply #8 on:** September 24, 2003, 03:39:24 PM »

convinced me--guess some semi's are due for purchase soon.
blessings

S.S. · « **Reply #9 on:** September 29, 2003, 08:13:36 AM »

158 gr lead semi wadcutter hollowpoint has the best street
record in .38 spl.
(CCI Lawman version is a nice round in that caliber)

williamlayton · « **Reply #10 on:** October 01, 2003, 01:11:37 AM »

got to re-thinking things--not as in changing my mind--just going back to past thoughts.
the question came up years and years ago--tha bow was still a hot weapon-- about speed and weight( as in slow but heavy) or in particular the value of the 30-06 versy some new fast cal of tha time.
i decided i liked, as in my own personal decision, the slower, heavier for a number of reasons.
i guess i'm jest goin back there agin.
blessings

brotherinlaw · « **Reply #11 on:** October 03, 2003, 10:29:56 AM »

It all depends on where you place it.

williamlayton · « **Reply #12 on:** October 03, 2003, 02:16:30 PM »

well as formyownself-i was never very good at pin pointin--i been good some at hittin tho.
blessings

Cameron · « **Reply #13 on:** April 19, 2004, 03:14:09 PM »

I would recommend an all lead semi wadcutter hollow point of 158 grains.This is the most effective "street load" to my understanding .Shot placement is the most important aspect of defence,and you shoul select which ever round you can hit with.Lot's of practice is the key

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #14 on:** April 19, 2004, 08:47:56 PM »

Unless you are an absolute dead eye shot under high stress you'd do well to ditch the .38 and get a .357 mag. It's a proven stopper and when your life is on the line your need all the edge you can get.

dawei · « **Reply #15 on:** April 20, 2004, 03:23:11 AM »

Quote from: lgm270

Your thoughts.

What gun are you going to use it in? If a 4" or longer barrel go with a 158gr +P.

If a 2-3" snubby use the Federal Premium 125gr Nyclad HP. (Specifically developed for short barrel revolvers).

coyote 2 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 20, 2004, 05:46:28 AM »

Speer GoldDot has a pretty new round out. The 38 SPL + P 125 gr. GDHP.
I believe it has a 947 fps average out of a short (2") barrel. In bare gelatin it has a penetration of 11.7". Clothing penetration is 13.75 inches. But the bullet expansion is between .554 and .583. This bullet will hold together.

Guardian · « **Reply #17 on:** April 20, 2004, 09:36:00 AM »

I carry reloads of my own creation,
They are 147 grain .358 dia. Hollow base wadcutters
loaded backward creating a large hollow-point.
They are loaded to Max Velocity.
I have read the Posts Concerning the Courts and reloads,
but those things do not concern me.
I have worked in or with Law Enforcement for the last 23
years in the Atlanta Ga. area and have never saw that argument successfully Prosecuted. As far as civil action goes, that will come to you
regardless of the ammo carried.
Most Departments are now standardized
as to what they carry as a Duty Weapon and ammo is normally issued,
but many still allow your choice of backup weapons.
Many officers carry reloads I have made for them in their snubbie 38's.

Reloads or factory, It makes no difference what ammo your weapon had in it if you are Dead from it not doing its job.
Personally I like My own over the Factory when it comes to defense.

"It is always better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

Savage · « **Reply #18 on:** April 28, 2004, 07:36:36 AM »

I did the inverted hollow base wadcutter thing many years ago. I loaded mine over a heavy dose of Red Dot. They looked impressive as hell, problem was, on actual live critter shoots, penetration was iffy due to tumbling. Never had one to mushroom in the classic style of hollowpoints. I found the SWC in 158 gr gave much more reliable penetration. I'll stick with the SWC profile in the 158>gr range.
Savage

papajohn428 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 08, 2004, 01:43:51 PM »

I also tried the inverted hollow-base wadcutter trick many years ago, even went so far as to glue a BB in the hollow to "encourage" expansion. Apparently it worked, I tried them over increasing charges of Bullseye until I got the classic mushroom shape, in wet newsprint. While they didn't penetrate well, I'm sure a stiffer alloy would help.
As for snubbies, the 125-grain Nyclad is about as good as it gets, though the 158-LHP is also a proven stopper.
As for using handloads for defense, I wouldn't, but it's your keister, not mine. If you have more confidence in your ammo than the factory stuff, go for it. But I'm not going to try to convince myself that I know more than the ammo makers, who spend several million dollars a year to improve their designs. I may be reasonably intelligent, but I sure ain't no expert! :wink:

PJ

Stu · « **Reply #20 on:** May 09, 2004, 04:01:09 PM »

Bill Jordan wrote an article years ago when he was with the Texas Rangers about loading wascutters backwards for a self defense round.

dawei · « **Reply #21 on:** May 10, 2004, 03:46:13 AM »

Quote from: Stu

Bill Jordan wrote an article years ago when he was with the Texas Rangers about loading wascutters backwards for a self defense round.

Stu..........

Bill Jordan's book was; NO SECOND PLACE WINNER. It's a classic, first published in 1965. He worked for the US Border patrol however; not the Texas Rangers.

We Revolver Buffs now have Jerry Miculek (sp?) but he uses specialized, custom guns. Bill did everything with a stock S&WÂ® Mdl 19. He was the original Master with a double action wheel gun!

Mohawk · « **Reply #22 on:** July 21, 2004, 03:26:11 PM »

Upgrade to a .357 Magnum(sorry I didn't get to finish my post). Upgrade to a .357 Magnum if you feel comfortable. I still carry .38 LRN half the time. I'm not a big believer in the whole stopping power debate, except that handguns in general are lousy. They can get you out of trouble but I wouldn't go looking for it without a long gun. I recently heard about a guy that took 20 or so handgun rounds and remained on his feet. What they also mentioned, quietly, is that the perp took 4 shotgun slugs also. In short, use the .38 to get to cover. Once your armed and behind cover, his plans normally change about continuing the fight. Yes, I have pretty good experience with getting to cover and it works better than any handgun round.

papajohn428 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 22, 2004, 09:56:01 PM »

If you follow the teachings of Clint Smith (I Do!) the handgun is to be used as a tool to fight your way to your long gun. If there is no long gun available, it is to be used as a tool to extricate yourself from the entire situation! Makes good sense to me. I may work three blocks from the local police station, but I still don't count on rapid response from them to save my bacon. That's why there's a Mini-14 and ammo in my trunk!

PJ the Cautious

dawei · « **Reply #24 on:** July 23, 2004, 01:46:07 AM »

Here is performance info on the 38, 38+P, & 38+P+:

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=7&Weight=All

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=8&Weight=All

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=9&Weight=All

z_biker · « **Reply #25 on:** September 24, 2006, 05:30:22 AM »

If the charts are right, then heavy weights/slow speed are the worst combo.

z

randyb · « **Reply #26 on:** September 28, 2006, 04:43:51 AM »

I prefer the 158 LHP +P rounds myself. Long record, adequate penetration. Though the new CCI 130 JHP +p for short barrels seems to be getting a good following of knowledgable shooters, I just haven't tested it myself. I don't buy into Sanow ans Marshall's one-stop shots studies. I do not like the methodology. I have also found that in my guns the 158 grain load is very accurate and hits at point of aim.

Almtnman · « **Reply #27 on:** October 21, 2006, 02:57:17 PM »

Quote from: lgm270 on September 20, 2003, 11:20:43 AM

Your thoughts.

I would suggest 125 grain Corbons. If you use a 38 special in a short barrel, the 158 grain loads will not expand enough to do damage enough to take a subject down. The 125 grain loads will expand rapidly especially in a short barrel. I speak from experience as my brother popped a perp 4 times with a Smith&Wesson Chiefs special using 158 grain loads and they didn't expand at all. The first two shots through the chest area only made him mad. It took two more to stop him enough to subdue him. He was in the hospital a week after being shot 4 times with the 158 grainers. So, short barrel 38's need to be using 125 grain bullets, longer barrel 38's are good to go with 158 grain bullets.

Corbon bullets are good defensive loads.

Lawndawg · « **Reply #28 on:** March 07, 2007, 06:29:36 PM »

Heres three for ya that are pretty darn good. Two from Buffalo Bore....

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#38spl

158 gr. L.S.W.C.H.P.--G.C. (1,000fps/M.E. 351 ft.lbs.) out of a 2" J frame smith

125 gr. L.V. Speer Uni Core (1,050fps/M.E. 306 ft.lbs.) out of a 2" J frame smith

20 bucks for a box of 20...a wee bit expensive. But worth it if you ever had to use them.

My choice would have to be these tho.....

And one from Double Tap ammunition.........

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_57&products_id=215

.38 Special +P 125gr. Gold Dot JHP (LV)--(1100fps/M.E. 336 ft. lbs.)out of a 1.875" bbl S&W J frame.

In 10% ordinance gelatin with 4 layers of denim and two of light cotton:
12.75" penetration
.652" expansion

Not too bad in my opinion. And at 25 bucks for a box of 50...a good deal for good, hot self defence ammo too.

valian · « **Reply #29 on:** March 08, 2007, 09:40:53 AM »

The velocity of 38 special loads is marginal for good performance through clothing. The best loads will vary also with barrel length because of the marginality of the velocity.

In 4" guns the old FBI 158gr LHP works well, and is one of the better performing rounds with good expansion and penetration, even through heavy clothing. But in the 2" guns this same load will rarely if ever expand through 4 layers of denim and you need to go to proven performers in the 2" guns like the Speer short barrel load-a 135gr JHP, or the Corbon DPX.

Interested in learning more about wound ballistics? try:

www.firearmstactical.com
or
the terminal ballistics forum at www.tacticalforums.com

valian