M1916 Spanish

[canon6]

Pictures of my lastest project. M1916 Spanish in 7.62x51.XS scout scope base, Burris extra low Z rings, slipon Limbsaver recoil pad , 2 1/2 power pistol scope, Allen buttstock ammo carrier,WalMart special sling,and Brownells grit paint.I have a total of $230.00 ij the rig.Before and after pictures     Doug

[Harry Snippe]

Nice unit ready to hunt . Now how much would it weigh? Have you updated the trigger also?
I understand the 1916 will not handle full reloads . What ammo works best in your rifle?

[canon6]

It weighs 7 pounds 9 oz with five rounds in the rifle and 9 in the ammo carrier.The 1916 Spanish was originally a '93 short rifle in 7mm Mauser.As such it was proofed at  51,000 psi.Commercial 308 Winchester is proofed at 62,000 psi and the Military 7.62x51 is proofed at 50,000psi.
As you can see the "full house" 308's are a tad hot, but reloaded 150gr at 2800 At well below the '93's capability.If I cannot kill it with that, I will go to the 47-70 
As to most accurate I am using mostly military surplus and hand loads with NBT.Still working on the most accurate.Assuming a 25 yard zero(150NBT at 2750) I am 4.3inches low at 300 yards and arrive with 1551fpe.hth   
I have not updated the trigger I like the two stage military trigger(old fart dont you know)but did stone all of the sear engagements and have about a 6 pound, clean breaking trigger.  hth   Doug

[Harry Snippe]

So did you do the tub swap or did you obtain it that way?
I don't mine the two stage trigger but 6 lbs would be more than I would like . I put a aftermarket trigger on my swede .

[canon6]

I did all of the work myself.      Doug

[zoner]

nice job...a well done project completed for a very good price. I have also heard that these Spanish Mauser aren't quite up to full bore 308 loads,but you could load it at 300 Savage pressures and have a darn good hunting rifle...good job,again...Mike

[Harry Snippe]

Yes
One can take pride in making a nice tool for the job intended .

I am impresseded too.
Happy

[Larry Gibson]

Yes
One can take pride in making a nice tool for the job intended .

I am impresseded too.
Happy

canon6

Nice job on the "scout" rifle, especially the correct low mounting of the scope.  Not sure where you got the "proof loads" for the cartridges but they aren't quite correct.  Also the old "psi" was based on CUP measurements and the newer psi's, particularly for the .308 and 7.62 NATO, are based on piezo measurements of psi. Akin to comparing apples and oranges.  The M1916 you have was made and proofed by the Spanish for 7.62 NATO ammuntion.  They also used a milder 7.62 load made especially for the unfluted chambered CETME rifles.  I can show you the Spanish manual if you hable espniol.  You might also consider that when Peter Mauser designed the M93 (what the M1916 is essentially) there was no such thing as psi.  He designed it in "atmosphere's".  If one does a conversion of the expected average "atmosphere" the M93 was designed for it is close to 56,500 psi as measured with piezo devices today.  That is above the average MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) as established by the NATO for 7.62 Nato Cartridge.  I also measure pressures and have measured the MAP of many 7.62 and .308W cartridges. I have found all to be be under the MAP listed.  There have been several reports of bolt lug set back but my investigation of a couple indicat that severe overloads were used.  Also bear in mind that your rifle is marked "7.62" which is for the NATO Cartridge and is not for the .308W which is factory loaded to somewhat higher pressures than 7.62 NATO.  Also all max loads in all manuals for the .308W all have much higher pressures than is allowed for 7.62 NATO.  If you keep your 150 gr loads, using medium burning powders, in the 2700 to 2750 fps range then you will be within 7.76 NATO pressures.

Larry Gibson

[canon6]

Thanks for all of the kind words.All of my SAAMI info came from published data, the 7.62CETME round is  a much "milder" round than THE 7.62 NATO.
The 7.62 CETME round was for a rifle called the FR-7  or FR-8. This was a intermediary weapon between the Mauser and the CETME. I even had the same type sights as the CETME
The M1916 Mauser as imported by Socom have been tested by HP White labs ,and found quite safe at pressures north of the commercial loading for the 308 Winchester.
If you go  back to my original posting I think you will find that I am aware of the "weakness " of the 93 action.     Doug

[Larry Gibson]

canon6

The original CETME rifle was made for a shortened cartridge ala the 8mm Kurz.  When it was decided to adopt it to 7.62 NATO the German engineers (working in Spain) enlarged the action.  Severe problems arose with reliability of extraction.  The pressures of the 7.62 NATO had the cases still gripping the chamber walls when extraction started.  This caused malfunctions as there was no primary extraction in the delayed roller locking system with it's non rotating bolt.  The solution was a milder pressured cartridge, hence the 7.62 CETME.  That cartridge was developed for the CETME rifle not the FR7 and FR8.  The German engineers then discovered that by fluting the chambers the extraction of 7.62 NATO ammo in the CETME rifles was reliable.  All issued rifles were recalled and their chambers fluted.  The German engineers returned to Germany and the H&K G3 was born out of the CETME design.  All this is well documented in numerous books such as Small Arms of the World, etc.  Concurrently the Spanish had a lot of M93/M1916s in 7x57 and M98s.  They rebarreled them with .7.62 barrels and reissued them to police and border guards as FR7s and FR8s.  The Spanish manual for these rifles lists 7.62 NATO as the standard ammo for them along with the remaining supplies of 7.62 CETME ammo.  7.62 NATO is standard.   

There is a considerable amount of "published" pressure data, both old and new.  My point was that many times the modern piezo measurement of psi is confused with the older CUP measurement of psi.  They are different.  As an example of the error in your quote of the 7.62 NATO being "proofed" at 50,000 psi.  That is not correct.  &.62 NATO has always been "proffed with the "Cartridge, 7.62 Millimeter NATO, test, High-Pressure M60 cartridge" which develops 65,000 to 70,000 psi based on a case mouth transducer which is what the Arsenals use for 7.62 and 5.56 NATO ammuntion testing. Another difference between "published data is that for the 7x57.  The CIP (Europes equivelent to SAAMI) says it is 57,000 psi. 

None the less you very nice scout conversion is made for 7.62 NATO ammuntion and should do well with it or equivelent handloads.  If the rifle is still a "work in progress" you might consider a cock on opening conversion.  I've done several (including my M1916 Ovido action) and they are a worthwhile conversion.  BTW; how well does she shoot?

Larry Gibson

[canon6]

Larry,the cock on opening conversion is next on my list. I was at the range yesterday(in the rain) and was able to shoot a 1 1/2half inch three shot group.100 yards off the bench, with  South African 7.62x51.   WITH A  LEAD SLED
These carbines tend to shoot well,with the fairly stiff barrel.Of course it is free floated and glass bedded.
I should be able to equal that with my favorite load with a Nosler BT.    again thanks for the kind words.   Doug

[Larry Gibson]

That's sweet shooting!  I've tried to post a couple picures of my FR8 and Swede Scouts but this forum won't take the jpe format.

Larry Gibson

[canon6]

I have always lusted after a FR8, but the Muaser Gods have never  smiled on me .   Doug

[Hank08]

Good job, I like it. Scout rifles deserve more than they get credit for.  I have 3, 2 in .308 and 1 in .35 Whelen.  Here's my one similar to yours.  I shoot the same thing in it I shoot in my other .308s though i don't heavy load any of them. This one has a 03a3 springfield barrel and shoots great.

H08

[canon6]

Hank08, I like.  The 308 at the velocities we are talking about.They are very versatile      thanks   Doug