Another Remington safety recall notice (M710)

[Augustis]

We know there's a problem. Remington admits there's a problem and even offers somewhat of a fix for the problem. Even Swamper knows there's a problem, but there's not a snowball's chance in hell that he will ever admit it. My problem is that someone might come to this forum and foolishly believe old Swamper's opinion like gospel and then accidentally shoot his neighbor or kid. Ya, Ya, Swamper, I know...the first rule of gun safety... But the first rule of gun safety doesn't make a defective trigger/safety mechanism just go away.

Skunk

Swamp and I already broached this issue...


http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,152938.90.html


That is Remingtons defensive argument.


From a letter from Earl Larson to Robert Sperling April 21, 1981 (A DuPont Lawyer and the "Acting Secretary" of the Product Safety Sub Committee)



Subject: SAAMI - NSSF Safety Advertising

(Quote) E.F. Barrett called today (April 20, 1981), advissing that W. Horn (President of Federal) has contacted J.P. McAndrews about an extension of the above program beyond the ten items already covered in the media and contained in the SAAMI booklet. He feels additional items will dilute the ten originally selected. (End quote)


The record goes on to say:

(Quote) It was my opinion from the start of this program, that we would select ten items we felt were important, and get them out to the public. Once that was done, based on complaint and legal experience, we would suggest others to SAAMI and that this would be a continuing program. By so doing, we would be in a stronger position legally because we could show the industry did publicize these many safety items. (End Quote)

In 1975 Remington concluded a special safety audit on C/F bolt action rifles already in the hands of the public which were gathered from wholesalers from around the country. One Model alone, the Mohawk 600 revealed a 55.9% failure rate out of a sample of 615 rifles gathered and tested, in that the effected rifles would fire on safety release under certain safety/trigger manipulation operations. The condition was termed "The Trick Condition" but NO recall or warning was issued at that time.

According to Remington's OWN estimates in 1979, they estimated that 1% of 2 million M/700 rifles already in the field would "Trick" and that a recall would undercut the message they planned to communicate to the public concerning "Safe Gun Handling".

The record goes on to say:

That would mean the recall would have to gather 2 million rifles JUST to find 20,000 rifles susceptible to the trick condition.

Those effected  rifles were NEVER recalled... Where are they now if never accounted for, Still in the field in hands of the public.... With that:

1) Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction

2) Never trust a safety which is a mechanical device, which can fail

3) Never contact the trigger while the safety selector in the 'ON' safe position

I have more bad news for you, History also suggests the Holocaust may have actually happened ;O)

Aug ><>

[Swampman]

1) Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction

2) Never trust a safety which is a mechanical device, which can fail

3) Never contact the trigger while the safety selector in the 'ON' safe position

Exactly!

[Coyote Hunter]

1) Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction

2) Never trust a safety which is a mechanical device, which can fail

3) Never contact the trigger while the safety selector in the 'ON' safe position

Exactly!

While those are good rules for the end user of a product, they in no way excuse Remington for producing and selling a product with known and serious safety shortcomings.

Think about it:

3) Never contact the trigger while the safety selector in the 'ON' safe position
One of the reasons we have safeties is to help protect against accidental discharges in situations where the trigger is touched unintentionally, either by human finger or by virtue of snagging on some foreign object such as brush or tree limbs or whatever.  Then there is the concept of human failure, in which the trigger is fingered intentionally when the safety is mistakenly believed to be in the “Fire” position – a very frequent occurrence and one after which the decision is often made NOT to fire at that time. There are many, many possibilities for violating this rule and Remington knew full well that this rule would be violated fairly frequently.

2) Never trust a safety which is a mechanical device, which can fail
As an estimated 1% of the M700 safeties are prone to do, right?  And a much higher percentage of the M600’s?

Safeties DO fail but most companies would not ship a firearm with a safety that was known to have problems with failures.  Remington simply decided to pay money to the injured or their survivors as they figured it was the cheaper route.

1) Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction
A very good rule but one that does not guarantee anyone’s safety.  Ever heard of ricochets?  Bullets or at least fragments can and often do come straight back, as I can personally attest having once carried copper jacket in my leg for 20 years, the result of a ricochet from 75 feet.

In short, Remington decided the way to highest profits was to allow the occasional injury or death and hope they could minimize payouts with a good legal team.  Their attitude was, in my mind, inexcusable given that simply changing the trigger change would have entirely alleviated the problem.

So while you can point the blame on the customer, and the customers SOMETIMES share some blame, their negligence, when there was any, does not absolve Remington of their purposeful deceit and misconduct.

[Swampman]

In short people tampered with their triggers, & handled the rifle in a manner that is unsafe.  You can't protect people from themselves.

[Augustis]

In short people tampered with their triggers, & handled the rifle in a manner that is unsafe.  You can't protect people from themselves.

Swamp
In part, That is BS! The M/600 safety audit that occurred in 1975 that ultimately resulted in a documented 55.9% failure rate, in that produced fire on safety release malfunctions was conducted on NEW Rifles still in the box that were at the wholesale level that had not reached the public yet. But further similar instances of M/700 malfunctions also were identified during gallery testing over the course of MANY years that never made it to the retail level.

While we are on the subject, as you already are aware (I am sure) the connector fire control was always intended to be adjusted by the customer.  Instruction were contained in the owners manual "almost inviting" the consumer to adjust the system until 1972, when the instruction folder was changed to indicate "No More Adjustments Are Recommended".

Interestingly enough though, based off of my review of certain materials that more than suggest that Remington appeared to have changed the rules, and yet again failed to inform the public of a design change that resulted in trigger pulls in the realm of 8 to 10 pounds.... And I Quote From A Memo:

Dated Feb. 21 1973 From SM Alvis To RP Eelly


M/700 - Instruction Folder

MH Walker has requested change to the folder to indicate "No Trigger Adjustments Are Recommended".

This is in accordance with his consultation with FE Morgan. It is understood that the need arises as result of significant increase in customer complaints of problems growing out of attempts to adjust trigger by shooters. The designers believe this condition arises as result of differences in parts as compared to earlier production, with the sear being the contributor.
MH Walker advises that FE  Morgan desires to see a proof copy of the folder change before printing, and advice as to inventory in terms of usage requirements and inventory cost in order to determine whether this should be made without obsolescence. End Quote...

You keep misrepresenting the facts, and I will continue to clarify these details for those that do not know the difference... its all the same to me Bro ;O)

Best Regards, Aug ><>

[Swampman]

I will continue to state the facts.  That's what I do.

[Augustis]

In short people tampered with their triggers, & handled the rifle in a manner that is unsafe.  You can't protect people from themselves.

Oh BTW, Maybe you can not always protect people from themselves... But you sure as heck COULD have protected this fire control system from these forms of malfunction that ultimately resulted in these injuries and deaths as a result of the malfunctions themselves!

And Again I Quote:

Bolt Action Fire Control Design Review 11-14-1978

The following design requirements for a NEW fire control for bolt action rifles were tentatively established

1. Eliminate the "trick" condition. At this point the best solution appears to be adding a trigger block to the safety cam mechanism. This would prevent the trigger from moving in the "safe" position - eliminating the "fail to reset" possibility.


2. The NEW fire control should be retrofittable.

I believe these to points alone from the " 1978  fire control design review record" speak volumes as to what was known & going on at Remington & DuPont internally.

Aug ><>

[Augustis]

I will continue to state the facts.  That's what I do.

No, what you "do" is make me Shine Bro! The real difference is I have something to substantiate a comment (if push comes to shove), and you offer more misleading statements, that at the moment I feel compelled to clarify to set the record straight ;O)

Later, Aug ><>

[Swampman]

I believe they vindicate my point.  Don't tamper with the trigger, if you don't know what you're doing.  Folks did, and people got killed.

[Augustis]

I believe they vindicate my point.  Don't tamper with the trigger, if you don't know what you're doing.  Folks did, and people got killed.

Swamp

What about the design changes to the sear, i.e. the change in the powder metal composition that resulted in higher coefficients of friction of the mating surfaces OR the screw up on the dimension of sear safety cam lobe in 1968 that finally surfaced in 1975? Oh Ya, you people are brilliant alright - Give me a break!

Heck, you people missed that one altogether, in that you did not even identify this condition internally, until a customer informed you of the FSR on his rifle in the field after describing the sequence of manipulation of the subject arm in 1975.  With the before mentioned aside, what about the Injuries & Deaths that have occurred with the factory seals STILL intact, how do you explain these instances away???

Yes people are still getting hurt, or worse... Even if they followed the instructions to the letter that your beloved company provided them.... You people screw up and try to shift the blame, These are all LAME excuse that you give in an attempt to shift attention from your company merely not to take responsibility for a "dangerous" mechanism your company created and intentionally placed in the hands of your customers, full well knowing of the potential for injury or death to occur at leased since 1947. Yes sir you appear to have all of the defensive answers.... With that, you keep doing what you "Do" by attempting to mislead everyone and I will fill in the blanks with a few more details as we go ;O)

[Swampman]

It's not my company.  I've been shooting their products since I bought my first one for $10.00 when I was 6 years old.  That was 46 years ago and I've never had an accidental discharge, nor do I know anyone that has.

They refined the product to make it harder for morons who don't follow proper gun safety rules to kill each other.

Don't be a hater.  You just can't beat a Remington.

[Augustis]

It's not my company.  I've been shooting their products since I bought my first one for $10.00 when I was 6 years old.  That was 46 years ago and I've never had an accidental discharge, nor do I know anyone that has.

They refined the product to make it harder for morons who don't follow proper gun safety rules to kill each other.

Don't be a hater.  You just can't beat a Remington.

Bro, here is the short and sweet of it....

 You appear to be doing your level best to Represent them HERE in the public domain, Certainly speaking on their behalf by using misleading defensive arguments they have utilized over the course of many years in the past as the official company line and in some instances developed, or even fabricated many years ago solely to pass the buck, "Hide the ball", or place blame on to their customers for something that at one time they had absolute control of, that they intentionally created and released to production and subsequent release to the public.

  Your BS comments and chest beating over something you may really NOT know anything about, or on the other side of the coin your deliberate lies are becoming somewhat disturbing to me, because I for one know better & because I potentially know more about this issue then anyone on the planet!  Sorry, but at this point I no longer see any clear distinctions in this area - with that,  Welcome to my world Remington!


Best Regards, Aug ><>

[Augustis]

 FYI  The "morons" you reference above all have, or HAD names at one time when still living.
 
Here are a few names of the "morons" that you referr to: 
 
Luna - Chapa - Munoz - Collins - Morris - Aleksich - Cambell - Coates - Blake - Baker - May - Castleberry - Ahlschlager - Corkich - Craig - Deloach - Hartman - Keenum - Barber - Jordan - Lewy - Murray - Nigro - Robertson - Parker - See - Slatter - Seyferth - Shutts - Van Allen - Thompson - Williams -  & Weigel to name ONLY a few as the body count continues to grow...

After further consideration you are offensive because I believe you are part of the problem and not the ultimate solution.

Aug ><>

[Swampman]

There is no problem.

I potentially know more about this issue then anyone on the planet!

[Augustis]

Swamp

You never answered my previous question, what about the Injuries & Deaths that have occurred with the factory seals STILL intact, how do you explain these instances away???

[Augustis]

There is no problem.

I potentially know more about this issue then anyone on the planet!

More lip service??? Say what you want Bro, or what you are told to say but the quotations from the internal records I have provided speak volumes about the issue itself ;O)

How do you explain the recommendations to correct the product deficiencies by Remington's own engineers?

Aug ><>

[Coyote Hunter]

It's not my company.  I've been shooting their products since I bought my first one for $10.00 when I was 6 years old.  That was 46 years ago and I've never had an accidental discharge, nor do I know anyone that has.

They refined the product to make it harder for morons who don't follow proper gun safety rules to kill each other.

Don't be a hater.  You just can't beat a Remington.

Swampgas -

If this was a debate class you would receive a big red "F" for your efforts.  You fail to address the points made by others and fail to refute their evidence with evidence of your own.  Instead you offer platitudes and statements that are both irrelevant and wrong.

The triggers were faulty and Remington knew it.  People got hurt and/or killed as a result.  In most cases, perhaps all, some customers shared the blame.  There are cases, however, in which the VICTIM was completely blameless.

Nothing Remington did absolves them of 50 years of corporate malfeasance at the expense of their customers and innocent bystanders who paid the price for Remington’s misconduct with their blood.

[Swampman]

You're both mistaken.  That's not unusual.

[Coyote Hunter]

You're both mistaken.  That's not unusual.

Once again you are hiding behind non-specific blather - as is typical of people like you who cannot provide anything of substance to support their claims.

[Swampman]

I provided substance, and you didn't like it.  People who violate safety rules, and then sue companies to get rich are a lot more common than they used to be.  That's why it's harder to get hot coffee from McDonalds now.

[Double D]

Move on from the pissing contest or I will close this discussion!!!

[Swampman]

I'm done, nothing will change my mind on the subject.

[nomosendero]

Yes, we know! 

[Zachary]

I am going to step in here and put on my moderator hat.  Please watch your words and be respectful.  I believe in freedom of speech, but I also believe in exchanging your ideas in a proper, respectful, and civil manner.  More importantly, there are guidelines that we have to follow here at GBO.

Remember, there are young(er) children who read these posts.

Zachary

[Graybeard]

This topic has already been locked by me.