Author Topic: 45-70 or 444 (Read 1141 times)

mbecnel · « **on:** June 19, 2009, 03:03:34 AM »

New to site and also deer hunting. My two sons (9) (15) & I have been duck hunting for a few years and have decided to give deer hunting a try. We joined a hunting club and now I'm in need of a gun(s). The members in the club told me the best hunting was at the beginning of hunting season so they suggested I get a 45-70 or 444 which I could use to hunt during the primative season also. We will be hunting mixed hardwoods surrounded by mostly pine. Most shots will be in the 40-60yard range and the maximum around +-100 yards.

Which caliber would be best for this application? Pros - Cons ?

Thanks in Advance
Mike

Swampman · « **Reply #1 on:** June 19, 2009, 03:07:14 AM »

.45-70 is way better, and easier to find ammo for. The 405 grain Remington factory loads don't kick very much at all.

BBF · « **Reply #2 on:** June 19, 2009, 05:25:23 AM »

If you had one of them I would have written don't bother to get the other. Both will work just fine.
The factory ammo for the 444 is pretty much a top load, while the standard 45-70 loads are whimpy. That is not to say they wouldn't do a good job on your hunting situation.

If you are buying used, price and shape would make the choice for me.

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #3 on:** June 19, 2009, 05:40:34 AM »

If it's for the boys, you might consider one in 44 mag or even 357 mag. Plenty for deer at that range you said and will do a fine job on deer. If it's for you either will be fine, I have both and like em both. DP

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #4 on:** June 19, 2009, 05:51:51 AM »

If you won't be reloading or shooting a lot I would pick up the first one that I liked. Not one in ten thousand deer taken at a hundred yds will know the difference between the two. 45/70 has more maximum potential but the 444 is not a popgun and will easily drop an Elk at 100yds so don't get too caught up in the differences.

petemi · « **Reply #5 on:** June 19, 2009, 05:58:48 AM »

If I were you, I'd go with a .45-70 for myself, a .44 Mag for the 15 year old, and a .357 Mag for the 9 year old......that way you could play with all three.

Ammo, in a wide range of loads, is readily available for all of them.

Pete

mbecnel · « **Reply #6 on:** June 19, 2009, 06:12:48 AM »

I don't plan on doing any reloading, just stuff off the shelf. My nine year old bought a 20ga combo with a slug barrel that he will use.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** June 19, 2009, 06:19:00 AM »

Welcome!! For factory ammo, the 444 has a bit of an advantage past 150-200yds, but for your use, either will work just fine, a true Handiholic will buy both and make the comparison for himself tho!!!

Tim

Sourdough · « **Reply #8 on:** June 19, 2009, 06:34:56 AM »

Forget the .444 Marlin. Go with the 45-70, far more versatile. Factory loads ranging from the standard and very mild, to the Buffalo Bore which are pretty hot and max for a Handi. Range? It was good enough for the buffalo hunters. You just have to learn how to adjust for the range like any other gun. My Dad has a .444 marlin and sometimes has problems finding ammo. 45-70 is by far a more popular cartridge and can be found almost everywhere, with different loadings.

For kids use the standard 45-70 loadings, yes there is some recoil, but it is a slow shove. The .444 has a sharp recoil that many adults find uncomfortable.

mbecnel · « **Reply #9 on:** June 19, 2009, 06:35:49 AM »

I was thinking of buying new
The dealer I purchased my nine year old gun from has the 45-70 & 444 for sale.............wood $260.00........syn $275.00

then this came up for sale near by. It's black syntheic. Can't find anything on the scope???

H&R 45-70
I am selling a handi rifle 45-70 GOV'T This is a nice powerful rifle it was bought last year and has only shot 2 1/2 boxes of shells. It has a armsport 3-9x32 waterproof scope that is sited. asking $300.00 the reason for selling is because i want a longer barrel one

tykempster · « **Reply #10 on:** June 19, 2009, 07:16:55 AM »

45-70.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #11 on:** June 19, 2009, 07:51:02 AM »

The 45-70 of the two but I agree with Petimi and the 44 mag will work just fine as a deer round at those ranges. Softer 180 grain bullets can be used and a box of 50 .44 mag rounds will be cheaper than 2, 20 round boxes of either the 45-70 or the 444 marlin.
More ammo mean more practice and the kids will be better at shooting.
The 45-70 kicks like a 20 ga shot gun. I have not shot the 444 marlin but would assume the same recoil. the pistol rounds are softer.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #12 on:** June 19, 2009, 08:50:18 AM »

.45-70

Sourdough · « **Reply #13 on:** June 19, 2009, 01:00:51 PM »

One other thing, the 45-70 will be a life time investment. Everyone I know that has started with a 45-70, has kept it and still uses it. My friend Norm got his when he was 19, like me he is now 60. Norm shot his Moose last year with it.

Now when my wife and I first came to Alaska, I got her a Marlin .44 Mag lever gun. She has killed Moose and Black Bears with it, but graduated to a 30-06 after about 7 years.

Since than I have given that .44 Mag away to young kids, (Nieces and Nephews, friends sons and daughters, and in every case it has found it's way back into my vault. After a few years they no longer want it, they want something with more range and power and they give it back to me.

That's OK, I'll start my grandkids with it. Cheyanne will be nine in August and coming to visit. She can shoot it. Oh Yea, I forgot, I even gave that gun to her father once when he turned 18, and he traded it back to me. Wanted a 30-30.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #14 on:** June 19, 2009, 01:15:00 PM »

the 444 was a hot thing when it came out

but then along came the 45-70 and it was crushed

444 is almost gone and probly we will see its passing

i wonder if the 45-70 will out do any more hopefulls

i think the 45-70 is here to stay and not just a passing fad

even if it is a passing fad it will come back

but i keep thinking about getting a 444 too
just for comparison
and i got all those 44mag slugs cast
sorta like a 45-70's little brother

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #15 on:** June 19, 2009, 02:34:51 PM »

Don't think the 444 is going anywhere, to good as it is. Yes there are more factory loads available for the 45-70, but the 444 Hornady loads cover any deer or elk on this continent. They are both great rounds, not gonna start another fight over "mines better than yers". I have both and will keep both. DP

OBXPilgrim · « **Reply #16 on:** June 19, 2009, 02:40:39 PM »

Always entertaining to here from some 45-70 lovers about how bad the 444 sucks.

You'd have thought that after all these years the manufacturers would have loaded a big heavy slow 444 load for a fun to shoot deer loading. In some areas 444 is just as common as 45-70 on the dealers shelves, I'd take a look at what's on the shelf before you buy either one. Hopefully in a few months it won't make any difference - The deer won't be able to tell one bit of difference.

Even draw either way.

Quote from: 45-70.gov on June 19, 2009, 01:15:00 PM

the 444 was a hot thing when it came out

but then along came the 45-70 and it was crushed

mmm..., thought the 45-70 was already around (by about 90 years).

Bayou Stalker · « **Reply #17 on:** June 19, 2009, 02:57:56 PM »

Stop in any Louisiana sporting goods store and you'll find two boxes of each, Remington and Hornady on the shelves. I had a 45/70 then after reading the ballistics, sold it for a .444.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #18 on:** June 19, 2009, 04:40:21 PM »

Quote from: 45-70.gov on Today at 06:15:00 PM
the 444 was a hot thing when it came out

but then along came the 45-70 and it was crushed

mmm..., thought the 45-70 was already around (by about 90 years).

that was my point

these 2 rounds get compared a lot because they are so close
the seniority is the primary difference

actually the 444 might be a better round
just not a more powerfull round
but to others the 30 30 is better

myarmor · « **Reply #19 on:** June 19, 2009, 05:28:44 PM »

Quote from: Sourdough on June 19, 2009, 01:00:51 PM

One other thing, the 45-70 will be a life time investment. Everyone I know that has started with a 45-70, has kept it and still uses it. My friend Norm got his when he was 19, like me he is now 60. Norm shot his Moose last year with it.

Now when my wife and I first came to Alaska, I got her a Marlin .44 Mag lever gun. She has killed Moose and Black Bears with it, but graduated to a 30-06 after about 7 years.

Since than I have given that .44 Mag away to young kids, (Nieces and Nephews, friends sons and daughters, and in every case it has found it's way back into my vault. After a few years they no longer want it, they want something with more range and power and they give it back to me.

That's OK, I'll start my grandkids with it. Cheyanne will be nine in August and coming to visit. She can shoot it. Oh Yea, I forgot, I even gave that gun to her father once when he turned 18, and he traded it back to me. Wanted a 30-30.

A father I understand(mine has been able to do so for me a lot), but a grandfather being able to give guns seems a lost heritage for so many..... I have a lot of respect for that. Good man. There's not much I can say that you don't already know.

-Aaron

tykempster · « **Reply #20 on:** June 19, 2009, 06:48:11 PM »

Factory loads kick a lot less than any 20 gauge I've shot. 444 loads will be more powerful and have a lot more kick, which you don't need to 100 yards.

Sourdough · « **Reply #21 on:** June 19, 2009, 09:27:18 PM »

One thing many people here keep saying is about how underpowered the 45-70 is in comparison to the .444. They use the factory loadings as their example.

Yes factory loads are way underpowered, they are loaded for the old Trapdoor Springfields that Custer's troops carried at the Battle Of The Little Big Horn, in the Mid to late 1870s. Many of those guns are still around, along with many replicas. They can not take heavy loads, so the loads you buy from Remington are loaded real weak.

Now enter the Handi Rifle, modern metallurgy enables it to handle much higher pressure. Reloaders have exploited this for years. Now Buffalo Bore is making loads that are loaded for the modern rifles such as the Marlin lever guns and the Handi Rifle.

Using Cartridges Of The World as my referance.
The only factory loading for the .444 Marlin list a 240 gr SP bullet @ 2330 fps and 2942 ft pds of energy.
Factory loading for the 45-70 government list 300 gr SP @ 1880 and 2355
405 gr SP @ 1330 and 1590

If bullet weights were comperable I do not think there would be any differance. So then I look at versitility, there is not much room for loading up or down with the .444. The 45-70 has a big range to move up and down. Can be down loaded to a comfortable loading for kids, and can be loaded hotter for big bears or any other big game.

The .444 came along in the late 60s, and never developed a big following nation wide. The 45-70 came out in 1873, and there must be a reason it is still going strong.

maglvr44 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 19, 2009, 10:05:09 PM »

Welcome!
Which caliber is not nearly as important as seeing the gun BEFORE you purchase it! There are a lot of low quality guns shipping these days.
Stuff the real H&R would have rejected in a heartbeat!
Good luck and safe/happy hunting.

tykempster · « **Reply #23 on:** June 20, 2009, 03:19:57 AM »

You can run the 300 grain bullets from 1800-2500 fps in the Handi 45-70, and 405 grain bullets from 1400-2200. 500 grain bullets past 1800 fps if you want. Lets see the 444 do that.

mechanic · « **Reply #24 on:** June 20, 2009, 03:28:28 AM »

In regards to the "weak" factory loads in the 45-70. The Remington Core Locs will shoot end to end through a good sized deer. (Front to back). Thats at about 70 yds. downhill with the deer looking straight up at me. A right shoulder entry exited the left rear. Broke a lot of bones, and yes, ruined some meat. I don't know how much more power you could want at <100yds. Those big bullets perform much better than the ballistics charts indicate.

Buy whichever gun you can get the best deal on, or whichever one "floats your boat". Either are almost overkill on whitetail at short ranges.

jim36 · « **Reply #25 on:** June 20, 2009, 03:40:44 AM »

TY pretty much laid it on the line for you. The 45 70 is a piece of history to own one. Great round and a "HOOT TO SHOOT"

Fairshake · « **Reply #26 on:** June 20, 2009, 05:43:06 AM »

The 45-70 is by far the better choice. I owned one of the early H&R Sharki (SIC) and it was built on the shotgun frame. The only rounds safe to shoot in it was the slow factory designed for the trapdoor Springfields. The new 1871 is able to shoot the same loads that were listed for the Ruger #1 and the Marlin lever guns. If you hand load this rifle will beat the 444 in every dept including being able to shoot BPCR. How many 444 have you seen at one of these matches?

BBF · « **Reply #27 on:** June 20, 2009, 05:45:50 AM »

The original poster did write that there will be no hand/reloading.
Why would I want to shoot 500 gr bullets if they were even available from a 444 when a 265 gr Hdy or LE(factory load) or 300 gr XTE will be more then enough.

Using those heavy .458 bullets will make a 45-70 shoot even more of a rainbow trajectory then it does with lighter bullets.

Those dealer prices sound like a dream to me.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #28 on:** June 20, 2009, 06:08:25 AM »

Quote from: BBF on June 20, 2009, 05:45:50 AM

Those dealer prices sound like a dream to me.

They're USD$ prices, they always look better to those north of the US border!!

Tim

southernutah · « **Reply #29 on:** June 20, 2009, 06:36:48 AM »

444 ammo now has hornady behind it. they have flat point and now the new plastic tip bullets. 444 is in big demand and the components for loading are stocked by all the suppliers. nothing againts the 45-70 just haven't owned one. 444 is a little much for a young kid and a 44mag may be more in line with lighter recoil. You could have H&R fit an extra 444 barrel and have both.