FBI Movie Question

[Old Griz]

I just watched the movie Thunderheart, (an 80s movie that took place in the 70s), and it looks to me like the revolver Val Kilmer is using is a 19. It has a big ol' front sight on it. However, I thought the FBI issued 3" 13s with fixed sights? Which gun did the FBI use, or, did they have a choice?

(I always wanted a 3" 13. Had to settle for a 2.5" 19, and a 3" 66. Poor me!) 

[Fairshake]

Having worked with the FBI and attending many of the Firearms Schools they offered to local Law Enforcement I can answer your question. They issued many different weapons to the men in the field. It depended on your duty status. If a law clerk in a office you would receive a different one than a line officer. The 3in 65 was another one they issued once S&W made them. The counter part of the 13. The mdl 15 had it's day also. When I say worked with I mean in field cases and schools and BS after work parties not as a sworn agent.

[Siskiyou]

This gives you a good idea what they were carrying on April 11, 1986 in a major fire fight.

 http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

[DeckH]

In 1968, all FBI AGENTS were issued S&W Model 10's.  The FBI issuance of firearms(handguns) was uniform throughout the Bureau.   In the '70's when SWAT teams were formed, SWAT team members were issued S&W Model 59's (9mm).   Then in the '80's(?), agents were issued S&W Model 13-3's and SWAT members were issued SIG 226's in 9mm.
         After the Miami shootout, the Bureau wanted a more powerful handgun which resulted in the S&W 1076 in 10mm.  Initially 2500 were issued.  Problems developed and they were recalled.  Agents if issued one could buy their handgun from S&W via the Bureau.  Agents are now issued Glock 40's, model unknown to me.
         The Bureau maintained a list of approved handguns that Agents could own and carry if approved by the Principle Firearms Instructor (PFI) in a given field office.     For example--S&W Models 36, 60 15, 19, etc.   These were typically the J and K framed .38 and .357's.
         It doesn't matter what type of cases an Agent is investigating, they all basically carry the issued or personally approved handgun.
          Those of us that were firearms instructors (18 yrs) were issued S&W revolvers, SIG 226's, and up until I retired the S&W 1076 in 10mm.  I also carried an approved S&W 60 and a S&W 66 at various times in  my 27+ years.   
           The revovler in said movie was very likely an " approved S&W Model 19". Ha!
           

[federali]

It is my understanding that S&W made the model 13-3" at the FBI's request. I acquired the Model 65-3" (identical but in stainless) and in my opinion, the model 13/65-3" is the most practical revolver ever offered for law enforcement as it is readily concealable, far easier to hit with than a 2" and the sights come up more quickly than a 4".  And, the extra inch of barrel translates into higher velocity. The gun companies generally listen to the high profile agencies such as the FBI or NYPD. Yes, things went bad in Miami but the FBI did advance the science of combat shooting. However, their foray into the S&W 1076 was unfortunate.

[Mohawk]

  In reference to Miami, don't bring a handgun into a rifle fight. No handgun hollow point on earth can compete with a semi auto .223.

[Tonk]

MoHawk.....I believe that if those FBI agents had been carrying GLOCK-20's in 10mm, things would have been far different that day for the agents period. The 10mm is two levels above a 9mm or 38+P ammo, as well as giving almost twice the wound channel damage. You can check this out for yourself, at AR-15.com handgun sight, under 10mm handguns.

[Mohawk]

MoHawk.....I believe that if those FBI agents had been carrying GLOCK-20's in 10mm, things would have been far different that day for the agents period. The 10mm is two levels above a 9mm or 38+P ammo, as well as giving almost twice the wound channel damage. You can check this out for yourself, at AR-15.com handgun sight, under 10mm handguns.

  Very familiar with the 10mm and it's capabilities. Still no match for a rifle.

[Old Griz]

MoHawk.....I believe that if those FBI agents had been carrying GLOCK-20's in 10mm, things would have been far different that day for the agents period. The 10mm is two levels above a 9mm or 38+P ammo, as well as giving almost twice the wound channel damage. You can check this out for yourself, at AR-15.com handgun sight, under 10mm handguns.

 Very familiar with the 10mm and it's capabilities. Still no match for a rifle.

True, but what I think he means is with all the hits the perp absorbed, had they been 10mm hits, he'd a been gone and the rifle would have been irrelevant.

[Mohawk]

Understood. But what I was saying they went into a firefight with handguns and shotguns while knowing their adversaries were armed with at least one rifle. Had the agents had rifles the caliber of handgun or the penetration of a 9mm Silvertip would not have been relavent.

[Siskiyou]

I attended a number of seminars where the Miami shooting was discussed in detail.  Two common issues discussed were:

Why the passenger agents were not armed with long guns?
 
A cased shotgun in the trunk is false security.

Why two agents had their handguns riding in the seat?

Moving surveillances in traffic can be dangerous with a high risk of a collision.  A weapon not in control of the agent can be expected to be lost.

Another issue is that some were armed with .357 magnums loaded with +P ammunition.  I feel this is buckling to social pressure.  A 357 magnum is only a magnum when loaded with .357 magnum ammunition.  During my career I was issued 38 Special +P+ ammunition and always felt it was not adequate.  Fortunately .357 ammunition was authorized.  I always felt the +P and +P+ ammunition was a compromise for those who lacked the interest or skills to handle full power loads.   Then there are those officers/agents that are restrained by policy.

Okay I must admit that I carried +P .45 hollow points on duty after the transition to autoloaders. 

The shootout occurred April 11, 1986; the Glock 20 was introduced in 1990.  The Colt Delta Elite in 10MM was introduced in 1987.

Was the culture of the Miami FBI office so low key that it cost agents their lives.

The outcome of the shootout like any major L.E. shooting has been the subject of a lot of Monday morning quarter backing.  Without a doubt in resulted in a lot of upgrades in firearms, ammunition, and training in the law enforcement community.  But remember that L.E. officers are tools of their community and at times pay a high price.  The North Hollywood shootout involving two bank robbers February 28, 1997 is a prime example of a large department failing to properly equip its officers after the lessons learned in Miami.

Even before the Miami shootout we were studying the Norco bank robbery and shootout.  This incident was studied across the country by law enforcement.  A lot of lessons learned the hard way from these three incidents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norco_shootout

Normally before I was issued an AR my shotgun was loaded with 00 Magnum 12 pellet buckshot first followed by five rifle slugs.