FOR ALL YOU MCAIN FOR PRESIDENT SUPPORTERS, THIS IS JUST TOO GOOD

[Dixie Dude]

Like I said earlier, the last time a third party actually won states was George Wallace in 1968.  He won 5 southern states outright and came in second to nixon in 6 or 7 others.  He won the old southern conservative democrats thus causing the democrats to loose to Nixon.  Reagan took the southern democrats and many converted to the Republican party during the 80's.  Southern conservatives are white Christian, pro-life, pro-American, pro-military, fiscal conservatives, and as a hold over from before the Civil War want a less intrusive federal government.  If you don't get a good conservative person to run for office, some have a tendency to stay home.  A lot of southern conservatives stayed home and didn't vote for McCain, and many voted for third party.  So, if the "Rockafela Republicans" can't accept christian conservatives in the party, it is time to change parties.  Polls are coming out now that show 46% of Americans claim to be conservative, and only 33% claim to be liberal.  So, people wanted change from Bush, but not so far left.  McCain was too moderate for a lot of people who stayed home.   

[ironglow]

  The idea that someone could vote for anyone..without voting for the "lesser evil" has to be a fantasy.
  The only perfect person to ever walk this earth was here almost 2,000 years ago..

   ..And as Cement Man said, it is subjective. Even 2,000 years ago there were people around who were willing to truly crucify the only completely righteous man anyone would ever meet.
 
      So, the only way you can avoid voting for a "lesser evil" person, is to simply not vote...

[billy_56081]

Well said IG.

[nw_hunter]

 
[/quote]

Well that's all well and fine...and true in part. But what I think you're not getting is that a bunch of us in this thread (and not just me) are saying that voting the same old Duopoly is the lessor evil ,or just plain ole evil, no matter which name you vote for. I believe Dee use the phrase 2 heads of the same coin. So, if you really want to vote lessor evil or whatever you want to call it,  then quit voting for the dual headed monster.

...TM7
[/quote]

Why is this so hard for people to understand? If you don't want to vote for a third party candidate, then a NO vote would send one hell of a message to the Gangster class ruling our country.

We haven't had a two party system in this country for a long time. Perhaps this will easier to get across to some folks, while we are waiting in line at a soup kitchen getting our daily bowl of swill.

[Cement Man]

I don't think this thing will ever get settled - it just repeats itself in circles.  Half empty or half full.  Lesser of two evils - (not my phrase)  Two sides of the same coin.  Lose with a winner ...... yada yada.
 
What do we agree on?   I think that in principle we are approximately close on many issues - pro 2nd, judeo-christian heritage, pro-life, pro-constitution, strong defense, personal responsibility, pro-capitalism, control immigration, personal freedom, disgruntled or through with the Republicans, democrats are same or worse, the current Obama administration is leading us to disaster, etc.  There is some degree of majority agreement around these issues.

The big hot button disagreement seems more of a strategic/tactical issue:  Don't vote for the lesser of two evils, send a message, I'm done with the Republicans - they're the same as the Democrats, my principles cannot be compromised any longer, I realize my vote will not impact the outcome of this election, and there are no degrees of bad; 5 million tons of crap is the same as 5000 tons because crap is crap.  VS.  maybe we can still beat Obama and 5000 tons of crap is crap all right, but as crappy as it is, we might be able to dig it out, maybe Sarah will develop into a pres. candidate, maybe we can get the Republicans to straighten out, we'll never undo the damage of the liberal socialist trifecta of all 3 branches, I still like Bush, I'm a Republican, etc.  (THESE ARE NOT ALL MY OPINIONS - I AM JUST TRYING TO FAIRLY DESCRIBE OPINIONS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE.)

I see and respect arguments on both sides of the issue but right now I am stuck in the middle, because I think the damage that will be done to our country is so deep and permanent that there is a significant difference between 5000 tons of crap and 5,000,000 tons.  Maybe, just maybe we could have shoveled the 5,000 tons and made some progress straightening out Congress,  but not the 5,000,000 tons.  I believe the bigger amount breaks the back of this country.  Some say there is no difference. I believe there is. Just like I don't understand why we don't use our own oil and gas while we phase in new energy saving technology at the same time. I don't like "all or nothing" and "degrees don't matter". I think we (possibly) can "correct" things incrementally without destroying everything.  If so, I believe it would be the better way to go.

I voted for McCain as a tactical decision and although I absolutely disagree with many of his positions, I do respect, in fact admire his war record and as a fellow vet it does rankle me when people of the eligible age for Viet Nam who didn't serve in the military get snotty in any way regarding his service. (Leave it alone!)   Lesser of two evils?  Call it what you want.  Could be called the better of two evils.  Could simply be called the better choice period.  I don't care - semantics and phrases are not the issues for me. I am not the jingle master here.  If there had been a better viable candidate than McCain, I'd have voted for him or her based on their record and the issues.   All I know is that we got the worst result and it will become worse than we could have imagined.

Still, I have repeatedly indicated my respect for 3rd party voters rights and choices, didn't say they wasted their vote or lost the election. They made their choices, I made mine. I may end up 3rd party myself even in the face of some of the baloney spewed by some - because I will decide on the issues from my perspective.  Yet, I keep reading about those who did not vote or agree with 3rd party last Nov. that we are "transfixed" and can only vote as we were taught by the government, (like we are a bunch of Zombies or something) yada, yada. Now TM-7 is telling me to quit voting for the dual headed monster.  Cajoling takes the place of discussion I guess. Silly monster and coin analogies and slogans with mis-defined words take the place of reason. 

I have tried to be about as fair, honest, and polite as I can about this debate. Hopefully we can get out from under the 5,000,000 tons of crap someday.  I'll decide for me how I vote and why.  Hope you all do the same and I won't criticize your choice or mock you for it.

[dukkillr]

I don't think this thing will ever get settled - it just repeats itself in circles.  Half empty or half full.  Lesser of two evils - (not my phrase)  Two sides of the same coin.  Lose with a winner ...... yada yada.
 
What do we agree on?   I think that in principle we are approximately close on many issues - pro 2nd, judeo-christian heritage, pro-life, pro-constitution, strong defense, personal responsibility, pro-capitalism, control immigration, personal freedom, disgruntled or through with the Republicans, democrats are same or worse, the current Obama administration is leading us to disaster, etc.  There is some degree of majority agreement around these issues.

The big hot button disagreement seems more of a strategic/tactical issue:  Don't vote for the lesser of two evils, send a message, I'm done with the Republicans - they're the same as the Democrats, my principles cannot be compromised any longer, I realize my vote will not impact the outcome of this election, and there are no degrees of bad; 5 million tons of crap is the same as 5000 tons because crap is crap.  VS.  maybe we can still beat Obama and 5000 tons of crap is crap all right, but as crappy as it is, we might be able to dig it out, maybe Sarah will develop into a pres. candidate, maybe we can get the Republicans to straighten out, we'll never undo the damage of the liberal socialist trifecta of all 3 branches, I still like Bush, I'm a Republican, etc.  (THESE ARE NOT ALL MY OPINIONS - I AM JUST TRYING TO FAIRLY DESCRIBE OPINIONS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE.)

I see and respect arguments on both sides of the issue but right now I am stuck in the middle, because I think the damage that will be done to our country is so deep and permanent that there is a significant difference between 5000 tons of crap and 5,000,000 tons.  Maybe, just maybe we could have shoveled the 5,000 tons and made some progress straightening out Congress,  but not the 5,000,000 tons.  I believe the bigger amount breaks the back of this country.  Some say there is no difference. I believe there is. Just like I don't understand why we don't use our own oil and gas while we phase in new energy saving technology at the same time. I don't like "all or nothing" and "degrees don't matter". I think we (possibly) can "correct" things incrementally without destroying everything.  If so, I believe it would be the better way to go.

I voted for McCain as a tactical decision and although I absolutely disagree with many of his positions, I do respect, in fact admire his war record and as a fellow vet it does rankle me when people of the eligible age for Viet Nam who didn't serve in the military get snotty in any way regarding his service. (Leave it alone!)   Lesser of two evils?  Call it what you want.  Could be called the better of two evils.  Could simply be called the better choice period.  I don't care - semantics and phrases are not the issues for me. I am not the jingle master here.  If there had been a better viable candidate than McCain, I'd have voted for him or her based on their record and the issues.   All I know is that we got the worst result and it will become worse than we could have imagined.

Still, I have repeatedly indicated my respect for 3rd party voters rights and choices, didn't say they wasted their vote or lost the election. They made their choices, I made mine. I may end up 3rd party myself even in the face of some of the baloney spewed by some - because I will decide on the issues from my perspective.  Yet, I keep reading about those who did not vote or agree with 3rd party last Nov. that we are "transfixed" and can only vote as we were taught by the government, (like we are a bunch of Zombies or something) yada, yada. Now TM-7 is telling me to quit voting for the dual headed monster.  Cajoling takes the place of discussion I guess. Silly monster and coin analogies and slogans with mis-defined words take the place of reason. 

I have tried to be about as fair, honest, and polite as I can about this debate. Hopefully we can get out from under the 5,000,000 tons of crap someday.  I'll decide for me how I vote and why.  Hope you all do the same and I won't criticize your choice or mock you for it.

Great post.  Prepare to be attacked by the intelligence police!  No way can that type of critical thinking be allowed around here...

[ironglow]

  good post Cememt Man..
  I do agree with your analogy that shoveling 5,000 tons is a possibility..but 5,000,000 is highly unlikely. Once an "entitlement" is established, it is very difficult to disestablish.
   I don't blame the 3rd party voters for the loss because they were rather insignificant. Besides the media who stomped the last vestiges of honest journalism in 2008 were the major culprit..followed by the weak willed "patrician" Republicans, who as Dee pointed out did a fine woman (Sarah Palin) dirty..and gave up trying to honestly compete.

[BBF]

To think back that I actually voted for George Wallace should give me a point or two from the 3rd Party supporters

[ironglow]

  In 1968, I was in ntransition and disgusted with both "parties"..so i voted for Wallace also..

[teamnelson]

[chest, pull pin, 1, 2, 3 ...] a myth of democracy is that it is like a perpetual motion machine: once you start it, it will run forever. However the truth is that it has an inherent half-life - an intentional design characteristic that guarantees obsolescence - which is becoming more and more tangible. I am talking about "mob rule." Our forefathers did what they could to prevent it, but ultimately left things simple in the hopes that their children would retain some of their convictions. McCain, Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc. are all keenly aware of the power of the mob, and have taken different approaches to garnering their favor. For the average Joe: When the mob is going the way you like, you're happy. When the mob is going the other way, you're not. But that is the ultimate expression of democracy. Unchecked, the mob will eventually vote itself into socialism, because the mob wants its cake and to eat it too.

Ahh, but a republic is a whole 'nother thing. And that is where we were headed when the foundation was laid. Sadly we lost sight of it somewhere along the way, with some major drifts in the 19th century that put us on the course to where we are today. You cannot blame a politician for appealing to the mob when that is the nature of things. Paul, and so far Palin, are 2 examples of folks who are not driven by the mob, although for Palin to make it in 2012 I assume she will bow to the forces that are. The good ship USA will run itself aground, bilge pumps straining, listing to port, regardless of who's at the helm, because we're not willing to stop and perform maintenance.

As long as we the people are committed to mob rule, the problems we are discussing here will not be solved. As a citizen, and one who has devoted most of his life to preserving his country, I will continue to participate in what we have, but will not vote strategically, or tactically.

[briarpatch]

As we type, we as a nation are circling the drain. The only thing that will stem the flow is an honest man dedicated to the preservation of this country and its principles. They are the ones the news media refuse to acknowledge. They struggle to get their message out and are vilified for their efforts.
We talk of being patriots and heros but like a cow with a ring in its nose we follow the media and the evil they pick. Evil #1 and Evil #2 No matter who you vote for, it is still evil. (The media picks).
I have voted for these fools in the past but will not again.
I intend to get behind the man that will do what is right and help him push his cart from the mire. We may not get it to the top of the hill but it want be because we did not try.
When evil #1 or evil #2 does something that removes freedoms dont blame me I did not vote for him.  MHO.

[blind ear]

If Ron Paul or Sarah Palin or any combination of the two get the Republican nomination for preaident and neither one gets ELECTED, a whole bunch of possibilities will be eleminated and some grave decisions will have to be make by us citizens for our individual lives.
eddie

[teamnelson]

TM7, some have noted that the mob threw off the oligarchy in the late 1800s here. What we forget is that the moral caliber of the mob was of a higher order than we have today. To successfully throw it off again IMHO won't be a matter of politics or guns but of stronger better folks with selfless ideals, which may pick up arms and reestablish politics later. But the sequence is important.

As long as we chase bright shiny objects we will remain subjects not citizens.

[newstart2k]

Indulge my fantasy for a moment then. Add one more line item to the ballot which is labeled "None of the Above" If the total number of votes cast for NOTA is greater than a set percentage we throw it all out, disqualify the current slate of candidates and start over from scratch. It wouldn't have to happen but once before a whole lot changed.

Hey! I said it was a fantasy.

[ironglow]

Teamnelson;

   Your post #103 has much wisdom. Our forefathers who wrote the Constitution relied upon the people for some major character traits to continue this United States. Judging by the character of most Americans in 1776, it should have been a cinch !
  We failed those patriots however, and we have a population, much of which is willing to "sell their birthright (freedom) for a mess of pottage". Having deserted their spiritual roots over the last 3-4 decades..they are ready to be fed free pulse..
  a witness:

 " Our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other"
                                                                                         
                                                                                                 John Adams (address to the military, Oct 11, 1798)

[teamnelson]

Ariana Huffington, a broken clock who happens to tell the correct time at least twice a day, commented yesterday that Adam Smith wrote The Wealth of Nations, upon which much of what we have now as Free Market Capitalism is based, after he had written The Theory of Moral Sentiments. Morality preceded Wealth. No system succeeds or fails in a vacuum - that's like accusing a gun of inherent evil (an argument we here are all sick of hearing).

Capitalism, Democracy, like any other useful tool, can inflict great pain upon the innocent when wielded by those of evil or simply selfish intent. Those who would argue to regulate either one are using the same logic as the Brady campaign, who seek to punish or place safeties upon the tools, or restrict who can or cannot participate in the use of those tools, or how they can be used. The solution to injustice or infringement forever remains in the hearts of those who would wield those tools; not the tools themselves.

[BBF]

BHO would be a fraction of the danger he is now  IF  the Democrats did not win majority in both Houses and with Frankern now preventing any likely filibusters in the Senate it made it worse. The only additional disaster I could see would be an  additional open seat in the Supreme Court.