FOR ALL YOU MCAIN FOR PRESIDENT SUPPORTERS, THIS IS JUST TOO GOOD

[nomosendero]

45-70
I think you would be hard pressed to come up with over 10 "good ones". I don't think a take over of the party is on the horizon. But if you can name over 10 I would like to see the list.

[45-70.gov]

well  the libertaians had  a man on the ballot in  all  50  for a while now

and good people  are  leaving  the republican party  
to join  the constitution party  
having  no party affiliation

they  made a big deal  when  ross  porrot   got  on  the ballot  in  all  50  states

proclaimed   it  to be  a 3 way  race  now

the  news  media  never  mentioned  ross parrot  was  the   FORTH MAN  on the ballot in  50 states
the libertaians  had   the  THIRD MAN  on the ballot in  all 50  states
notice  ross porrot was  on  the  debates  on  tv.....thats cause  he took votes from  old bush
the libertaians NEVER  get invited to  the debates


there  is  no right or  wrong
there  just is  .....deal with  it
and  it   IS  going to be a  rep  or  a dem

the enemy  of  you enemy  is  your friend.....so  i will  help  the republicans..the lessor of 2 evils

  

[45-70.gov]

45-70
I think you would be hard pressed to come up with over 10 "good ones". I don't think a take over of the party is on the horizon. But if you can name over 10 I would like to see the list.

your  point  is  well  taken

but  that doesnt change  the facts

they are  the lessor of 2 evils  and  those  ARE  our choices

that  doesnt  make it right.....it  just  is

maybe   good people could fix the party easyer  than starting 4 more parties

[teamnelson]

The "system" itself is so large and convoluted the ability of any person, particularly Rep or Dem, is blunted from the get go. As much as I don't like the goals & practices of the current President, his own agenda has been slowed and stalled just by the sheer bulk of government, and he's packing on more to saddle the next person down. Let's say we get a real 3rd option by 2012; it'd take more than 1 term to fix what's broke. The change will be painful for someone ... especially Libertarianism. It would require a generation of succesive victories of like minded folks carrying on the same plan, to fix what most posters here think is broke. And even the folks who wanted it would pay a price in some way. Collective will to go after a common dream ... bigger than a revamp of the status quo.

[newstart2k]

You've put it well TN. The main problem any third party candidate would have would be what does he do after he is elected. The reality would be BIpartisanship like we haven't seen in years. The president would be effectively cut off from any means of governing. Power protects Power at all costs. Any 3rd party guy would barely get enough electoral votes to take office and certainly not enough popular votes to have any kind of politcal collateral to spend. Sure reality sucks, but it's better than living in a fantasy world.

newstart2k

[ironglow]

  ny third party should go after the independents first (tea party types) and use them as their base. Then, whatever Dems & Reps want to jump aboard will be welcome.
  I firmly believe that the tea party types are not "moderates", but actually more strongly right of center..old style Reps and blue dog Dems.
  They universally dislike big government and have no quarrel with Christians and traditional values.
   The door is wide open if  persons of stature will just step into it !

[teamnelson]

I agree the numbers may be there for a substantial 3rd Party in 2012, from the base IG identified. But within that group would remain a lot of special interest. As a conservative Christian gun owner I would find myself partnering with gay/lesbian gun owners for example - Libertarianism basically means we all have the right to pursue whatever definition of happiness we want, so long as we don't infringe on the life, liberty and property of others. I'm not saying its impossible, just highly improbable that centrist/independents would be able to maintain the level of cooperation on Jan 21, 2013 like they did on Nov 3rd, 2012. Unless we went into it willing to accept that some things that we personally want need to take back seat from other larger issues.

[BBF]

 Question to those of you that know or know how to get the numbers of votes by ethnic groups:
 What candidate got the muslim vote in the last election?

[teamnelson]

Going into the election, CAIR (which is biased towards promoting Islam) claimed 86% of the 8 Million Muslims in the US were registered to vote, but only 70% (5.6 Million) would vote. The real number is believed to be 5 million, with lower voting/registration participation - spitball number, 3-4 Million voted. Polling claims they were split going into the election, and it looks like from exit polling that they were split coming out; in other words Muslims did not vote as a bloc in favor of Obama. The percentage of Muslims around the world who vote strictly along religious lines (i.e. Obama is a Muslim, we should vote for him) is actually very small. Theologically, those folks form Islamic republics in which the people would have no voice/vote. When given the opportunity to participate in a democratic government, "Abu Average" votes like alot of us would here - morally conservative, free market oriented, pro-family, pro-life.

[nomosendero]

45-70
I think you would be hard pressed to come up with over 10 "good ones". I don't think a take over of the party is on the horizon. But if you can name over 10 I would like to see the list.

your  point  is  well  taken

but  that doesnt change  the facts

they are  the lessor of 2 evils  and  those  ARE  our choices

that  doesnt  make it right.....it  just  is

maybe   good people could fix the party easyer  than starting 4 more parties

OK
Then status quo is where we go

[Graybeard]

OK
Then status quo is where we go

Yes sadly I think that's correct.

It would be nice if it were not so but I just don't see it changing. No one who can change it seems to want to change it. What must happen if it is to change is that the alternative parties must get their start at the local level in all states. You must elect folks to local city and county positions at all levels from alternative parties then move to the state level.

Only when you have a party firmly established in most states with good representation in local city and county offices and have folks in the state congress and some govenors from that new party sitting in office and get some elected to the US House and Senate will you ever have a hope of electing a President from such an alternative party.

But no one wants to go that route they want to toss up presidential candidates only knowing full well that all that does is get the worse of the two choices elected. Ya can't begin at the top and work down ya gotta start at the bottom and work up.

[teamnelson]

What do you do if the grassroots movement produces say a half a dozen viable alternatives, maybe even capturing whole states, but none of which have the size to win a National seat?

For example the Constitution Party might catch on well in the Carolinas, while the Libertarian Party might come to the forefront in New England and the Northwest. The Democratic Party might fragment down to some of the smaller liberal parties (Green, Rainbow, Socialist, Communist, etc.) but they'd still hold urban/suburban districts. A Border Party in the southwest ... you see where I'm going maybe?

I agree with the bottom up approach, but I wonder if you need to go even further below local elections?

Obviously our forefathers built it from scratch, and that was tough enough.

[45-70.gov]

i  will  repeat  what  i said a few  monthe  ago

you  have 10 voters

4  democrats
3 republicans
2 libertaians
1  constitution party

who  wins  this vote

one  party  wants  you guns  more  the the other parties
[no  i dont want  to hear about  gun grabbing  mccain]

once  you  are  unarmed and defenseless
every  thing   else  is a mute point

if  we  had  a lot  of  us registered  in  arazona
MACCAIN  COULD HAVE BEEN VOTED  OUT WHEN  HE VOTED FOR THE CRIME BILL
in  the primaries  he could have been  stopped way back when
that  is  why  i now belong to  the republican party
so  i can vote  the mccains  out  around  here

[nomosendero]

Well, last time we did not have 10 voters, but millions of voters & those 3rd party votes did not cost
McCain the election. McCain beat himself. I voted for Palin & obviously my vote was wasted. I wish I had voted 3rd party for my own peace of mind. I have been doing this lessor of 2 evil crap since Reagan & it has accomplished nothing. At this point I see no rerason to do it again.

[45-70.gov]

Well, last time we did not have 10 voters, but millions of voters & those 3rd party votes did not cost
McCain the election. McCain beat himself. I voted for Palin & obviously my vote was wasted. I wish I had voted 3rd party for my own peace of mind. I have been doing this lessor of 2 evil crap since Reagan & it has accomplished nothing. At this point I see no rerason to do it again.

well  your  right
i  didnot change a thing  with  my vote  either
mccain  had to run  so  they could put on a  show to make  us THINK  we  have a choice
mccain basicaly  ran  unopposed  because they new it was  the dems  turn

it was  the democrats  turn

2012    we  might  make a difference


there is a reason  to vote for the lessor of 2  evils
THAT  IS  ALL  WE HAVE

[nomosendero]

If it's all we have we have nothing anyway.

I would just say that you do what you can & I will do the same. As for me, I'm done with voting for punk lite. Good luck to you Sir!!

[Cement Man]

I don't think 3rd party voters helped defeat McCain.  There weren't enough to really make any difference.  I respect one's voting strictly on their own principles - that is their right, but I can't say that the various 3rd party candidates completely aligned with my principles either.

McCain had the poorest campaign I can ever recall. Obama had a very slick campaign and used communications and the internet to a much better advantage. He appealed to a lot of people for many reasons.  I was embarassed for the McCain campaign.  I respect McCain's courage as a hero of the Viet Nam war.  It rubs me the wrong way when people, especially neverdids and wannabes, take shots at his military service or heritage.

I have plenty of strong differences with Senator McCain but I look at Washington as a big pile of poop. We were absolutely going to get one pile or the other and now we have a mountain to deal with instead of a big pile.  And the government now owns all of the poop shovels.

There is a huge and growing bloc of people who embrace the cradle to grave government, the welfare benefits, and the balmy illusion of "change" that cannot be justified with any hint of equity for those who work and succeed, maintaining a strong defense, and fiscal or individual responsibility.   Somehow we have grow our base and unite to defeat that voting mass and that is going to be tough.  I would like nothing better than to support a good viable conservative candidate who supports the constitution and our traditional values.  I'm looking to do so - but I am not attracted to radicals on the right or this backwards-looking continued whining about McClain's flaws either.  He isn't the future.  I'm not sure who is, but we'd better find him or her and be smarter when we do.

[Elijah Gunn]

I wish I had voted 3rd party for my own peace of mind. I have been doing this lessor of 2 evil crap since Reagan & it has accomplished nothing. At this point I see no rerason to do it again.

This where I'm at as well. I did vote constitution party back in 2000, but then fell back into the trap of voting the lessor of two evils. I'm done with that now.

[billy_56081]

As the bumper sticker read on the way to work. "Don't blame me, I voted for Palin"

[newstart2k]

Well let me see if I can keep this going for another minute. It is my heart-felt belief that the biggest root cause of the problems with our governmental system is the career politicians proliferating in it. When a kid can graduate high school with his goal being a career (career, life-long, retire from, career) in politics I really don't think we have a chance.
If a grass roots movement pushed hard enough to get a two term total limit put on our representatives (and I'm open to compromise as to the actual way to divide the limits up) I think in time , a generation perhaps, this country would start to get back to the people.
Show me the holes in my thinking because I'm sure there are several, but also give me suggestions for improvement.

newstart2k

[Dixie Dude]

The last time an independent won some states was in 1968.  George Wallace won 5 southern states.  Came in second to Nixon in about 8 or 9 other states.  If he had won those, no-one would have had enough delegates to win.  They would have had to go to congress which would probably have picked Humphrey because congress was ran by democrats then.  However, the southern democrats might have gone with Nixon. 

[teamnelson]

American Culture no longer values hard work, sacrifice, honesty, etc. Many Americans still do, as evidenced by posters here ... but our culture doesn't. So trying to make the system better doesn't counteract a determinedly selfish people from figuring out a way to exploit it or change it to their favor. The system we inherited was not created in a vacuum - it was critically dependent on the people it was designed to serve.

Example, CA is 24 billion in the hole and digging. And there are parents on a hunger strike in front of the board of education protesting cuts to programs. Folks can't see the forest for the trees.

[Oldshooter]

 "VOTE FOR WHO YOU WANT" 24 hours before the election you know who has a chance to win the election! And if you vote for a candidate that has no damned chance to win then you make it easy for the opposition. I did not like Mcain but i'd cut my throat before I'd vote for obama. No body else had a prayer. If you feel Mcain is the same as obama then so be it. but we will never know now! he couln't have been any worse. And he did more for his country than the muslim did! and somehow I dont see him kissing arab hands and bowing! may as well vote for obamma as vote for a man that has no chance to win! Say what you want, I aint buying the throw yourself on your sword bs!
 

[powderman]

"VOTE FOR WHO YOU WANT" 24 hours before the election you know who has a chance to win the election! And if you vote for a candidate that has no damned chance to win then you make it easy for the opposition. I did not like Mcain but i'd cut my throat before I'd vote for obama. No body else had a prayer. If you feel Mcain is the same as obama then so be it. but we will never know now! he couln't have been any worse. And he did more for his country than the muslim did! and somehow I dont see him kissing arab hands and bowing! may as well vote for obamma as vote for a man that has no chance to win! Say what you want, I aint buying the throw yourself on your sword bs!
 



Well said and true. POWDERMAN. 

[45-70.gov]

"VOTE FOR WHO YOU WANT" 24 hours before the election you know who has a chance to win the election! And if you vote for a candidate that has no damned chance to win then you make it easy for the opposition. I did not like Mcain but i'd cut my throat before I'd vote for obama. No body else had a prayer. If you feel Mcain is the same as obama then so be it. but we will never know now! he couln't have been any worse. And he did more for his country than the muslim did! and somehow I dont see him kissing arab hands and bowing! may as well vote for obamma as vote for a man that has no chance to win! Say what you want, I aint buying the throw yourself on your sword bs!
 



Well said and true. POWDERMAN. 

in  the sceem of things...........no  one vote  matters
so  just  vote what ever  makes  you FEEL  good
we  are  all  too  insignifacant  to matter  any way
i  admit  i  FELT  a lot  better  when  i was in the libertaian party
then  i looked at  REALITY
i  know  what  i think  should be  has  no bering  and  no one  cares
i  have  come  to accept  that the lessor of  2 evils  are the ONLY choices  we  have
not  accepting  that  won't change  it

but  then  perception  is reality      so  vote  the way  you  FEEL

[powderman]

Every vote counts. Our local sherriff was elected by ONE vote and a man in Evansville IN was elected by ONE vote. POWDERMAN. 

[williamlayton]

While I respect Dee, the logic of the arguement is undefendable--by him.
We do not know how the good doctor would have acted and what he would have tried too do, I doubt he would have garnered much support--if you can go by how much support his past programs have fared.
I, for one, was not as enamored by the good doctors rhetoric and have not ever been.
His politics are pretty off the wall and are close too, if not all together, very conservative to the bad side of consevatism.
Democracy is pretty liberal, as governments go, and the concern by the founding fathers was to keep it in check.
We do not have many politicians today willing to keep it in check.
Blessings 

[SHOOTALL]

Until there are enough voters who want whats good for America and not whats ghood for this or that speical interest group we will have what we have now.
We can blame either party but if you face facts both parties represent what many in America have become , To get elected a third or fourth party would have to embrace the ideals of the speical intrest groups to get elected .

[Swampman]

If I had it to do again, I'd still vote for McCain/Palin.  I'm a Republican.

[SHOOTALL]

I rest my case !