Author Topic: Martini Enfield (Read 2531 times)

filmokentucky · « **on:** June 23, 2009, 02:24:26 PM »

Hi guys. Any Martini experts here? I've got a few questions I need to ask about a Martini Enfield I'm thinking of buying. Thanks, Dan

Double D · « **Reply #1 on:** June 23, 2009, 05:12:08 PM »

Ask away...

filmokentucky · « **Reply #2 on:** June 23, 2009, 05:42:07 PM »

Thanks. The action is marked thusly:
Crown
V.R.
ENFIELD
1889
M.E. .303
A.C. 11
1

All of this is on the left side of the receiver and on the same side up forward near where the barrel screws in are what appear to be proof marks and perhaps military acceptance stamps. The receiver is polished and unpitted and has been fitted with a long curved lever suitable for a pistol grip stock and this lever appears unused. The markings are clear and sharp and do not look as if they have been recut. I would really like to build a rifle around this action, but I am unsure just which one it is and what its value is. Thanks again. Dan

mauser98us · « **Reply #3 on:** June 23, 2009, 06:13:22 PM »

you have a medium action in calibre >303. Pretty scarce item I would hesitate to change it. I am no Martini"expert" ,but I know enough about them that the medium action is pretty hard to come by. Most were the small and large actions.

Double D · « **Reply #4 on:** June 23, 2009, 06:51:10 PM »

Check the date again. MEAC II should not have an 1889 date. Date should be 1899. AC should also be II and not 11.

On the right side should be the faint markings of the Martini Henry that the gun was modified from. If the gun was all original, not modified and had a good barrel it would be worth well above $750. Unfortunately it sounds like someone already started to bubba it by polishing the action and straightening the lever. In this case if the gun is real it may still be suitable for restoration if you can find a lever. Even polish would still be worth considerable if restored. Complete original ME with good barrels are hard to find and very desirable.

Unfortunately the ME's are also the most counterfeited of the Martinis. If you can post clear pictures of the markings on both side of the reciever I should be able to help determine if you gun is real. If it is counterfiet, it will make a poor wall hanging and lousy boat anchor.

There is no such thing as a Medium action Martini. There Are Greener Pattern, Martini Henry Pattern, which includes the ME's and there small Martini Henry and Francotte patterns which includes the BSA line of Cadets and onward.

filmokentucky · « **Reply #5 on:** June 23, 2009, 08:22:11 PM »

This is just the action--no barrel or stock. The date does seem to be 1889. The A.C. 11 is actually A.C. II. The steel in the lever appears different from the rest of the action and has a sort of round end on it. The checkered "thumb print" is present on the top right rear of the action and from what I can see, there never was anything stamped into the right side of the receiver. I have tried to post an image but I'm doubtful that it worked.

Double D · « **Reply #6 on:** June 24, 2009, 03:25:07 AM »

Polishing the Action may have removed the marks that were left on the right side.

Did you try clicking on the Additional options button below the reply window and then browsing on you computer to find and post a picture.

All I need to see is the marks on the Left side.

filmokentucky · « **Reply #7 on:** June 24, 2009, 08:27:10 AM »

Trying to post photos again.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #8 on:** June 24, 2009, 09:08:29 AM »

Great thread, good pics...

I'm glad Doug responded. He knows I want a Martini to build on and likes to torture me...

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #9 on:** June 24, 2009, 09:52:16 AM »

Altlaw,
One of the knife compainies has the nepalese martini's and they have un refurbished guns pretty cheap. I will get a website for you. Bounce this back to me and I will bring the catalog in tomorrow.
Or if i want to torture you I won't.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #10 on:** June 24, 2009, 10:00:23 AM »

Quote from: mcwoodduck on June 24, 2009, 09:52:16 AM

Or if i want to torture you I won't.

Thanks McWoodrow!

It's good to be loved...

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #11 on:** June 24, 2009, 10:01:54 AM »

Found it.
www.atlantaCutlery.com
1 800 883 0300
By the name I would guess they are in your back yard.
The short lever guns are $275.00 for un refurbished
the short and long lever rifles are 595.00

AtlLaw · « **Reply #12 on:** June 24, 2009, 10:49:45 AM »

Yup, they're not to far from downtown Atlanta. I've bought stuff from them over the years but never any firearms. I wish I could get Double D to check out what they are offering and give me (us) a rundown on his opinion of them... $:-\$ You know, history, price good or bad, suitability for what cartridges... that sort of thing.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #13 on:** June 24, 2009, 11:15:07 AM »

I have seen a couple in 45-70 and we know they will handle 303 brit type pressures.
What are you thinking of making?
I am guessing you are looking at American calibers with a rim.
So 22 hornet, 256 Win, 25-20, 30-30, 30-40 Krag, 303 brit, 32 win special, 44-40, 45 colt, 45-70, 50-70 no problem As well as any of the T/ C contender wild cats. Like the JDJ series based on the 444 Marlin case. The bruiser 375JDJ would be neat. (Micro 375H&H)
Pretty sure that the 357, 41, 44 mag and 444 Marlin would work as well.
Possibly 308/30-06 and family of rimless
.348 Win.
As far as your 45-90

I do not know if the case is too long and fat to feed into the action.
I have also seen a couple made into shotguns. But they were smooth bore strange guage by the south africans. Would be a really neat trap gun.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #14 on:** June 24, 2009, 02:53:07 PM »

I dunno really, I just always wanted a Martini. Thought a Cadet would be neat; 32-20. Bigger model I'd probably look at a 30-40, 50-70 or better yet, a 50-90.

So many projects...

Double D · « **Reply #15 on:** June 25, 2009, 03:23:06 AM »

Richard,

I typed you a nice long message last night explainingyour options in Martini's and when I posted the system crashed. So her is a the short version.

$595 is a lot of money to spend on an rifle for just the action. You could carefully pull all the parts off a sell them quite handsomelly.

Why don't you just watch the Auction sites and buy one already built.

The JDJ/444 Marlin are are unsuitable for the 120 year old or older Martini Henry actions and unsuitable because of the small 3/4 inch barrel tenon on the little Martini's. 30-06/ 308 have no rims and won't work.

For the Money you will spend to have a gun built you can buy dies and brass and shoot the 577/450.

Suggest if you are serious about this take a look at the link list at www.martinihenry.com and visit the Martini dedicated websites listed there and learn more. I will be more than glad to help you. But a good deal written up thread is not correct.

filmokentucky · « **Reply #16 on:** June 25, 2009, 08:15:34 AM »

Hey, Double D! Any thoughts on the photos I posted? They're the best I could do, but they can be up sized if you click on the links under each photo. Thanks. Dan

Double D · « **Reply #17 on:** June 25, 2009, 07:06:10 PM »

Yes, sorry, Dan got side tracked. Genuine article, a shame it's been done , but to late to cry over spilt milk. You might as well go the next step. Get the markings ground off and build a mich sporter. Who ever did the lever did a nice job. W]ould make a lovely 375 2 1/2 Flanged Nitro Express or a 450 Musket No. 2.

filmokentucky · « **Reply #18 on:** June 25, 2009, 10:03:13 PM »

Thanks. I had been thinking 50-90 or .50 Alaskan but nothing set in stone. Is it worth $400? Dan

Double D · « **Reply #19 on:** June 26, 2009, 03:32:03 AM »

I am not excited about either cartridge, but that is just personal preference. I am not sure if either of these cartridges will feed in the ME action. Make a barrel stub with dummy chamber and check feeding the with the longest bullet avaialble first. The 50-90 should be all right. THe 50 Alaskan might not.

You are going to have find a gunsmith who knows how to adjust the feed ramp height on the Martini. Ask the question when looking for a smith. "I'll figure it out" is a wrong answer.

$400 is a bit on the high side, depends on the condition of the internals. $350 is where I would like to be.

filmokentucky · « **Reply #20 on:** June 26, 2009, 11:47:43 AM »

Thanks for all the help. Tell me about the .375 2 1/2" Flanged Nitro Express and the .450 Musket No. 2. I'm open to suggestions here. I would like a 28" to 30" barrel but am flexible there too.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #21 on:** June 26, 2009, 12:33:02 PM »

375Win or 38-55 are similar to 375 2.5 flanged in ballistics?
I think either of the former two would be easier to have built and find brass and dies for rather than the british version.
and 450 No2 is similar to 45-70 ballistically.
If you are looking for an odd ball round then go for the brit stuff of even one of the old Winchester 1876 action rounds like 45-75.
with Cowboy action shooting and the old western scrounger old cases and brass are available.
A copy of Cartridges of the World will help you to look at one case over another and compair ballistics, rim diameter, case length and over all loaded. If the round is similar to the 450/577 round in OAL it should fit with out having to ask the question of modification to the gun smith.
From what I remember reading about the 50 alaska it was a 348 case necked up. the 348 case is a 45-70 case necked down with a thicker inner wall, if i remember right. But will have to break out COTW to verify.
Boarders or Barnes and Nobel have copies in thier sports section under hunting.

filmokentucky · « **Reply #22 on:** June 26, 2009, 04:46:33 PM »

I've got a couple of .45-70s now that I'm reloading for. Black powder and lead bullets. So something new would be O.K. What pressure levels are considered safe in this action?

I kind of like the look of the British Crown and stamps on the receiver. I'll have to think about whether I want them removed.

filmokentucky · « **Reply #23 on:** June 27, 2009, 07:31:17 AM »

The internal parts are in fine condition, but it does need an extractor. Is that hard to find?

Will this action handle pressures in the 40,000 to 45,000 CUP range or should I be thinking much lower?

Double D · « **Reply #24 on:** June 27, 2009, 07:31:46 PM »

Quote from: filmokentucky on June 27, 2009, 07:31:17 AM

The internal parts are in fine condition, but it does need an extractor. Is that hard to find?

Will this action handle pressures in the 40,000 to 45,000 CUP range or should I be thinking much lower?

The guide line is to never exceed the pressures of original cartridges. Keep in mind this action is betwen 110 and 135 years old. Even though it was made for the .303 British Cartridge, it proceeds CIP and SAAMI and the pressures specs for the .303 in 1890 may not be the same as later when CIP/SAAMI came to be. I would opt for pressures lower than 40,000 CUP.

.375 Flanged and 2 1/2 NE and 450 Musket supplies are available at http://www.buffaloarms.com/. The .375 Winchester is a bit to hot for the old Martini.38-55 would be okay but wouldn't match the Britsh Markings you want to keep.

50 Alaskan/348 Winchester cases are made from 50/90 not .45/70. Look into pressure figures on the 50 Alaskan, it may be to hot for this action.

Just because a cartridge has the same OAL as the 577/450 does not mean it will always fit, you need to check to see if it will fit, The Martini has an odd angle that cartridges have to turn to feed. The Geometry is determined by OAL and diameter of the cartridge, you can not assume it will feed. You must check. This is especially true if you have the .303 breech block. If you have a .577/.450 that was modified by having a new breech face dovetailed you have a little more latitude. The dedicated .303 breech block is narrower and shallower than a .577/450 the the entry angle is sharper.

filmokentucky · « **Reply #25 on:** June 27, 2009, 09:37:02 PM »

Here's a photo of the breechblock from the top. I hope. Looks to me like fairly good sized cartridge wil fit?

Chappers · « **Reply #26 on:** June 28, 2009, 03:29:48 AM »

How much are you paying for Martini? Over here there around the $300 mark. The makes i see are W.W. Greener, SportCo and BSA in .22LR, 22 Hornet, .310 and .303but i have seen some 577/450 around the $1000 +.

Have to wait for tax time to fin up my current project so it looks like it will be next year till i can get a martini in 22 Hornet or the trusty and fun .22LR.

Double D how did your shoot go?

Oh and also i have seen them in 32-20. I have never heard of that calibre before, who and when was it used? I have been told about .310 but never heard of this one.

Double D · « **Reply #27 on:** June 28, 2009, 03:37:32 AM »

That is a 577/450 breech block. Half good/half bad.

Look at the face of the breech block. Does it look like it has a new breech face dove tailed in. You should be able to see the dovetail from the side and a small screw in the face.

Shoot went great, you should hve been there!!! I'll post some pictures in the other post.

Chappers · « **Reply #28 on:** June 28, 2009, 03:46:23 AM »

Good to hear it went well and you all had fun, like to see some pics when you post them.
Would of liked to be there but it just i little too far to travel for me.

Also do any of your martinis have NSW or VIC stamped on your actions over in the states?

.222 is another calibre they come in over here.

filmokentucky · « **Reply #29 on:** June 28, 2009, 06:08:25 AM »

Unfortunately I only have photos at this point. So this is a modified breechblock with breech face set up for .303 cartridge heads? Dan