Author Topic: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles  (Read 1456 times)

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Offline Sourdough

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We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« on: June 23, 2009, 07:36:12 PM »
Unlike the lower 48, we have an abundance of Eagles here in Alaska.  Every trip out during the summer, I see Eagles on every stream.  Not just one or two, but many.  Last Monday floating the slough just a mile from my house we saw five Bald Eagles. 

I was talking to the area biologist a week ago and asked about getting Coyotes reclassified so we would have no closed season and no limit.  The reason I gave was that the sheep numbers have plummeted in the last few years.  I felt that reducing the numbers of Coyotes would help the sheep recover.  The biologist informed me that the main predator was not Coyotes, Wolves, or Grizzly Bears.  The main predator was Golden Eagles, and Bald Eagles were second.  He informed me that according to his research, Eagles take more Dall Sheep lambs than all the other predators combined.

Problem is Eagles are protected by the Federal Government.  While they may be endangered down south, they sure are not up here.
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Offline Blackhawker

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2009, 09:36:01 PM »
Not to be too much of a smart a**, but humans are the biggest (or worst and most wasteful) predator on earth.  If we don't kill it for food, we kill it for money, power, or greed and without feeling, nonetheless.  Does that mean we should have an open season on humans?

Sorry to say, I don't think you're gonna have too many people agree with you on hunting eagles.


Offline Oldtimer

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2009, 01:30:31 AM »
In Virginia, we are having the same sorts of problems with black buzzards.  I was out working in a rural area near Lynchburg and saw a cow surrounded by probably 40 buzzards.  She had just given birth and was having to stand them off.  I went to the house and told the woman there that her cattle were being threatened.  When I came back through a couple of hours later, the calf was up and nursing.  I don't know what the woman did, but I know what I would have done.  The buzzards in this area are getting so bold, I have driven by some at highway speed and they just hop to the side of the road, then turn right around and go back to feeding.

Offline magooch

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2009, 02:45:41 AM »
We have a lot of Bald Eagles around these parts (Southwest Washington), but not so many Goldens; maybe you could send us some of them.  Don't send down any yotes, though, we've got plenty of them.
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Offline rex6666

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2009, 05:00:02 AM »
I think they should look at all protection laws by area, not just throw a blanket
over the U.S.
Buzzards are protected like seagulls, what nonsense.
All animals need thining ocasionaly.
Yes Blackhawker we probably do need a season on some folks.
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Offline Blackhawker

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2009, 05:30:51 AM »
I think they should look at all protection laws by area, not just throw a blanket
over the U.S.
Buzzards are protected like seagulls, what nonsense.
All animals need thining ocasionaly.
Yes Blackhawker we probably do need a season on some folks.

Well, if we could only thin the "folks" side of things, then natural things would probably be back in balance.

;)

Offline rex6666

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2009, 05:38:57 AM »
I think they should look at all protection laws by area, not just throw a blanket
over the U.S.
Buzzards are protected like seagulls, what nonsense.
All animals need thining ocasionaly.
Yes Blackhawker we probably do need a season on some folks.

Well, if we could only thin the "folks" side of things, then natural things would probably be back in balance.


does this mean we won't be hearing from you much longer ;D

;)
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Offline Questor

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2009, 05:48:42 AM »
It used to be common practice for ranchers to shoot big eagles. Elmer Keith gives some accounts in his writings.
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2009, 05:58:01 AM »
Blackhawker:  The 40 mile Caribou herd is a well studied herd since it crosses into Canada, and many people depend on that herd for subsistence.  Wolves and Bears are responsible for 89% of the mortality rate of the herd.  9% of the mortality is attributed to other things like river crossings and accidents.  2% (This is well documented) are taken by the humans.  So for humans to be the biggest baddest preditor they sure seem to be missing the boat here on this one.

Sheep are the same way.  Humans only take older adult males.  Rams that are past their prime, and no longer in the breeding pool.  Eagles and other predators indiscriminately take any animal they can get hold of, mostly lambs and ewes.

So don't make the mistake of blaming the decrease in numbers on man. 

Nature has a bad habit of doing things to the extreame.  Nature will let the Eagles take all the pray they can till there is none left, or the numbers are so low the Eagles can no longer find food.  Then the Eagle numbers will crash.  Sensable men try and manage prey numbers to prevent this drastic swings in prey and predator numbers.  But some humans can not seem to be able to grasp the idea of wildlife management.  Managing for a sustainable number of animals, and for a subsistence yield.  It's better to manage for an allowable number for harvest by humans, than to let predators take the entire herd.

While we need to reduce the numbers of Eagles, we understand the Feds will not allow it.  Here in the Colony of Alaska we are ruled by the federal government.  Many people down south think that is the way it should be since they bought Alaska from the Russians.  To them we don't qualify as a state.  We are treated like a Colony.  And many of us want our Independence.
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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2009, 07:17:40 AM »
Does that mean we should have an open season on humans?

I don't know about an "open season," But in some places "he needed killin" is considered a valid legal defense...  :-\  Seems like this is what ol' Sourdough is talkin about.   ;)
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Offline Spanky

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2009, 07:25:42 AM »
A hunting season on eagles???
That's real patriotic ::)



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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2009, 07:26:54 AM »
many of us want our Independence.

DON'T DO IT SD!   :o  IT'S BEEN TRIED BEFORE!!   :'(  And I'll bet yo' momma O'Bamma will be at least as much of a Constitutional criminal as Lincoln was if we give him a chance!    ;)

Then again, it has been shown that the best way to get whatever you want from the ol' US of A is to loose a war to us.  ::)
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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2009, 07:31:29 AM »
Does that mean we should have an open season on humans?

I don't know about an "open season," But in some places "he needed killin" is considered a valid legal defense...  :-\  Seems like this is what ol' Sourdough is talkin about.   ;)

+1 Sir  
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Offline moxgrove

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2009, 07:38:15 AM »
I didn't know bald eagles ate lambs. My family has never had one taken from over by the St. Croix where there a lot of them. I thought they pretty much ate fish. Live and learn.
 

Offline Wyo. Coyote Hunter

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2009, 08:01:27 AM »
 ;) Sourdough, Don't think Alaska is the only state with an eagle problem. I can run up the creek just south of my house and see bald eagles any time I want. They are not in short supply. As for golden eagles, they are the biggest predator we have on fawn antelope and sage grouse. Elmer knew how to handle them, his .300 bull gun made short work of these critters. I love it when someone who doesn't deal with this crap put on us by the feds. knows all the answers. When the fools put wolves in Yellowstone, I ask a teacher from Calif. why we didn't put them in her state. Oh, no, we don't want them there, they would cause us no end of trouble. BUT it was fine to stick them in someone else's back yard. :P >:( We do need a season on eagles, hawks, ravens,seagulls,(we have hundreds of the worthless things here on the desert)pelicans, blue herons, and if Blackhawk likes, people. :D ;) :)

Offline Blackhawker

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2009, 09:35:09 AM »
Everyone is going to have opinions on this and say as they please....so go ahead, fire away.  No one here is going to win because no one really knows and no one person is right. 

I spent 10 years studying raptors and working with raptors.  Does that make me an expert?  Nope, and I'd never claim to be one either.  One thing I know I'm not an expert on is sheep.   Nonetheless, YES, it is NATURAL for populations to rise and fall.  Predators, disease, harsh weather conditions, you name it, will cause populations of animals, grasses, fishes, and the like to rise and fall.  This is the way nature works!  It's this "human" or "civilized" factor that we all have now because we have slowly fallen into an artificial way to life over the past 40,000 years and makes us not accept change and cycles of nature.  Today we have bank accounts, grocery stores, gasoline stations etc and none of us like to see supplies or prices or stocks go up and down...heck no, it scares the crap out of us all!!  This is what I mean of how we are living in an "unreal" or "artificial" world yet surrounded by a natural world that still lives the natural way and is striving to do so while we encroach upon that natural world.  We cannot force forces of nature to be stable!  I know we'd all like to but to force nature and natural things, are we not trying to play the role of God? 

I'm not going to comment on this anymore.  I originally poked a comment in as somewhat of a joke (referring to how out of control the human population has become, yet there are polar bears etc populations getting smaller and smaller every day and we want to kill more of nature.)  --that's a whole other story that I don't want to get into. 

Anyway, I'm not saying any of you are wrong or right, I guess I was just trying to light a match in the cave of darkness in which so many of us live.

Thanks and sorry if I offended any of you....that was not my intent.
Blackhawker

Offline Rustyinfla

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2009, 04:42:17 PM »


  Yes Elmer wrote quit a bit about killing golden eagles to help ease the toll they were taking on the sheep population.

  I saw a bald eagle a few years ago while traveling the backroads here in Florida and it was actually eating roadkill like a buzzard. I was really surprised to see that. I thought they only ate what they killed.

  I'm the same way around my house with predators that want to eat my chickens. I have a small flock, nothing big. they're just for my own enjoyment, but I'll shoot anything that tried to kill them. The problem is, that's not exactly legal either. so what to do? Feed the local foxes and hawks?  We have no more quail hunting in this part of the country unless you go to a "plantation" somewhere and shoot farm raised birds. that would be due to the predators.
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2009, 05:03:34 PM »
Rusty Bald Eaagles are probably more a scavenger than a predator. Last fall one of my friends shot a doe and a buck. He tipped the doe on the spot  with a head shot and made a poor shot on the buck. We tracked the buck and finished it off, when we returned the doe had been ripped open by an eagle and it had puled out the guts.
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Offline scootrd

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2009, 05:14:29 PM »


  Yes Elmer wrote quit a bit about killing golden eagles to help ease the toll they were taking on the sheep population.

  I saw a bald eagle a few years ago while traveling the backroads here in Florida and it was actually eating roadkill like a buzzard. I was really surprised to see that. I thought they only ate what they killed.

  I'm the same way around my house with predators that want to eat my chickens. I have a small flock, nothing big. they're just for my own enjoyment, but I'll shoot anything that tried to kill them. The problem is, that's not exactly legal either. so what to do? Feed the local foxes and hawks?  We have no more quail hunting in this part of the country unless you go to a "plantation" somewhere and shoot farm raised birds. that would be due to the predators.

My wife has chickens for the eggs .. I'm not even allowed to cull the ones that aren't laying anymore (I've been warned by the Boss) :)
Though I admit have tried to intimidate them by showing them a frying pan on sunday morning when there were no eggs to gather.
Her philosophy is they have earned retirement after years of producing for us !!! She has given them all names and there have
been many a cold winters night she had me and our dog Tessa out to the coop in sub zero temps with my 22 -410 O/U  to vanquish varmints that were doing "her girls " as she calls them harm. Legal doesn't even play into the equation with her. She loves all critters but if they cross the line and try to take her girls ..all bets are off.  I think the word is out in the animal world now that this lady means business..because it's been a while now since we have seen a hawk, ermine, owl , skunk , raccoon coy dog or fox even make a serious attempt. Thank god cause the older I get the colder the winter nights seem to be becoming :)
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Offline scootrd

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2009, 05:31:17 PM »
Rusty Bald Eaagles are probably more a scavenger than a predator. Last fall one of my friends shot a doe and a buck. He tipped the doe on the spot  with a head shot and made a poor shot on the buck. We tracked the buck and finished it off, when we returned the doe had been ripped open by an eagle and it had puled out the guts.

Given the chance I think most creatures are opportunistic . Why expel the energy having to hunt for your dinner if you don't have to.   
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2009, 05:40:20 PM »
Again someone shows their lack of the animals they speak of.  Polar bear numbers are not falling.  There is more Polar Bears now than there ever has been.  They are showing up in places they have never been before, not because of Global Warming, but because they are over populating their territory.  Last winter one was killed in Arctic Village, 250 miles from the ocean.  One biologist I talked to said he did not believe it had traveled from the Bearing Sea, down and across the Brooks Mountain Range.  He thought it had been born close to where it was killed.  And this bear was not a hybrid either, it was a true Polar Bear.  That means there is a population living either in or south of the Brooks Range.  That's a long way from the ocean.

So all the videos you guys see about the plight of the Polar Bear, they are designed for one thing.  To make the president and leaders of Defenders Of Wildlife and other groups rich.  The president of DOWL makes a set salary and a percentage of all the donations she brings in.  Sounds like a good profitable business to me.  Just I could not lie to folks like that, and take money from little old ladies and young girls, that think they are doing the right thing. 
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Offline scootrd

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2009, 06:52:08 PM »
 -  Sourdough,
After an enourmous amount of reading on the subject over the last 3 years  I have to respectfully disagree ,
The cumulative data does show a steady decline in the world population . The majority of the worlds scientists, and wildlife management folks including yours from Alaska have reached the same conclusion after extensive research and scientific studies.


SEATTLE, July 6 -- As the pack ice that is the bedrock of their existence melts because of global warming, polar bears are facing unprecedented environmental stress that will cause their numbers to plummet, according to a report by a panel of the world's leading experts on the species.

"All of the evidence is heading in the same direction, and the trend is dramatic," said Scott Schliebe, who led the Seattle meeting and is polar bear project leader in Alaska for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. "In a shrinking ice environment, the ability of the bears to find food, to reproduce and to survive will all be reduced."

The best longitudinal information on the effect of global warming on polar bears comes from the western coast of Hudson Bay, in the Canadian province of Manitoba. It shows a 17 percent decline in the polar bear population in the past 10 years, from 1,200 to fewer than 1,000. The panel here in Seattle used the Canadian research as the primary basis for its warning about the future of polar bears around the world.

"We have seen with our own eyes that climatic warming is causing the ice to break up earlier, and that is affecting the survival of the bears," said Ian Stirling, a research scientist for the Canadian Wildlife Service.

Ice is melting there about three weeks earlier than it did 30 years ago, said Stirling, who has been studying polar bears for 35 years.
"For a polar bear, not all weeks are created equal," he said. "They are losing three weeks at the best time of the year for feeding on the ice, when seal pups are abundant and bears put on fat that they store for the four months that they have to live onshore."

Having lost this critical hunting opportunity, polar bears in western Hudson Bay weigh about 15 percent less (about 150 pounds less for an adult male) than they did 30 years ago, Stirling said. "The bears are losing their physical condition," he said. "It is a cumulative process that is causing a steady decline in survival, particularly for cubs and sub-adults. It is causing the population to decline."

In Alaska
, the ice situation appears to be equally "grim" for polar bears, Schliebe said. He said that in three of the past four years, there have been record low ice packs in Alaska's Beaufort Sea region, pushing more and more polar bears on land for protracted periods. Hungry bears are drawn to village dumps and other settled areas where they come into conflict with people and are sometimes shot.

Polar bears evolved from brown bears about a quarter-million years ago to become specialist carnivores, marine mammals that can thrive on ice packs and feast on seals. Climate change, though, is happening too fast for the bears to adapt, experts say.
"They don't have time to evolve backwards," Stirling said.
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2009, 07:01:07 PM »
scootrd:  Yes, that is the propaganda being put out by the feds and the environmental groups.  Our state biologist disagree.  I am inclined to go with our state boys, they really know the numbers, and see the results.
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Offline scootrd

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2009, 07:06:26 PM »
Sourdough, Thanks for the response. I always try to keep an open mind and appreciate different points of view. I've digested alot of material over the last 3 years on this one subject both sides of the debate and reached my own conclusion. It's ok we disagree agreeably on this one subject. Respectfully Scootrd.
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2009, 07:34:37 PM »
It's OK we agree to disagree.  Thanks for not getting hot under the collar. 

We have two different sets of numbers being put out, and I can understand people having two different points of view.

I am on the Ak Dept of Fish and Game Advisory Commitee.  I get all my information directly from the area biologist.  We (Alaskans) have some serious problems with the US Fish and Wildlife people.  They have an entirely different agenda, and many of them are totally against hunting and trapping. 

One big incident that sticks out recently.  We are doing predator control in the area of the 40 mile Caribou herd, trying to improve the herd numbers.  Many villages in Alaska and Canada depend on this herd for food.  The only successful method of removing Wolves from the area is by shooting them from Airplanes.  This is not hunting, it is predator control.  We are only removing enough Wolves to allow the Caribou numbers to rebound, by slowing Wolf predation.   The US Fish and Wildlife Service got real upset because we were targeting Wolves on state land, near the Federal Lands.  They tried to say we were killing their Wolves that ventured outside their area.  They wanted us to not shoot near their lands, and forbid us to shoot on the Federal Lands.  74% of Alaska is owned by the Feds.  So how can we really manage wildlife state wide when the feds refuse to manage it themselves, or let us manage it on their lands.   

Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
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Offline victorcharlie

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2009, 01:02:06 AM »
IMO, birds of prey have recovered adequately.

I would agree with sourdough, lets get the feds out of it and let the locals decide.

Of course, a New York city boy thinks it's a good idea to restore wolves in Wyoming.  It's not his cattle the wolves kill.  If it's such a good idea in Wyoming, then why not restore them in New York City as well?

The same applies to birds of prey.

It seem the people making the decision aren't affected by the result.

One of the locals around here loved to watch the eagles that nested near her house, until one flew off with her little lap dog....  Now, it seems, she has a different opinion on the subject.
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Barry Goldwater

Offline magooch

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2009, 05:11:37 AM »
Okay, here's what we need to do: We have an overabundance of sea lions and seals and not too many golden eagles, so lets set up a trade.  Polar Bears eat seals and probably even sea lions.  The seals and sea lions are raising havoc with our fish populations and your polar bears need something to eat.  Sourdough, you're going to have to deal with the wolves on your own; we don't need any of them around here.

I am a firm believer that Mother Nature is not that good at balancing things--as Sourdough has stated.  So it's up to us to give ole Mom nature a helping hand.

I'm thinking maybe a million seals and sea lions for a couple hundred Goldens.
Swingem

Offline scootrd

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2009, 08:21:01 AM »
Okay, here's what we need to do: We have an overabundance of sea lions and seals and not too many golden eagles, so lets set up a trade.  Polar Bears eat seals and probably even sea lions.  The seals and sea lions are raising havoc with our fish populations and your polar bears need something to eat.  Sourdough, you're going to have to deal with the wolves on your own; we don't need any of them around here.

I am a firm believer that Mother Nature is not that good at balancing things--as Sourdough has stated.  So it's up to us to give ole Mom nature a helping hand.

I'm thinking maybe a million seals and sea lions for a couple hundred Goldens.

Now I don't care who you are that there is just damn funny .
Great post  :)
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline Spanky

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2009, 09:33:41 AM »
Mother Nature knows what she's doing... always has, always will.
It's the overwhelming desire for man to meddle that screws things up. ;)



Spanky

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: We need a season on Bald and Golden Eagles
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2009, 10:32:25 AM »
Don't really care what the bird is but when its your cow in the field and anything bird or what ever is attacking and killing it you should have the right to protect whats your's . I live in Va. and have spent a week keeping buzzards off my cows until the calf was old enough to run .
Used a blank gun . In the same county they are a problem at a boat ramp so the county got a permit to shoot some ( they had used the blank gun for several years with out effect ).
The human population gets thinned every so often .
And as far as being a patroit , Get real !
Everything needs to be kept in check , just look at the democrats !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !