Author Topic: Building wheels for my new Parrot Field Gun (Read 2198 times)

NitroSteel · « **on:** June 27, 2009, 10:27:21 AM »

I am building my cannon multiplying the dimensions shown by 1.8. I have completed all of the "major" wood and metal working on the barrel and on the carriage. I am in the process of building the wheels. The hubs are completed, the wheel segments are cut out to make the octagon as shown below and the spokes are ready also. It is all in oak and promises to look nice when it is all said and done. I still have to cut the bands for the wheels, and the miscellenous bits of metal hardware.

My question is regarding the 6 degree offset that is called for on the spokes. Are all of spokes offset in the same direction (6 degrees) or is every one offset in the opposite direction 6 degrees? Would offsetting them 6 degrees in the same direction make the construction weaker, is this way it was originally done? See the diagram below:

Thank yall for your help.

NitroSteel

thelionspaw · « **Reply #1 on:** June 27, 2009, 11:22:00 AM »

I THINK what you're asking can be answered with this (?). The spokes are all set the same so that thewheels are dished towards the carriage. This brings more strength to the confuguration as the weight of the piece shifts outwardly and the hub doesn't pop beyond the rim/tire/fellies.

rc

A.Roads · « **Reply #2 on:** June 27, 2009, 11:31:51 AM »

They are all offset the same, so that as the wheel rotates they all pass thru the same line. This makes the wheel "dish" shaped & a stronger wheel - better able to withstand sideways lurching. As the wheel turns the lowest spoke is usually at 90 degrees to the ground, therefore the hub is not exactly level when in place on the carriage - there is a downward cant to the axle ends to enable this.
Adrian

thelionspaw · « **Reply #3 on:** June 27, 2009, 11:52:29 AM »

He said it in English and I had said it in American

rc

thelionspaw · « **Reply #4 on:** June 27, 2009, 12:11:55 PM »

http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/this_old_wheel.htm

Try this. It's my friends site. now you'll get it in Polish too

rc

NitroSteel · « **Reply #5 on:** June 27, 2009, 01:38:52 PM »

Then dished it will be... It's just a matter of getting the metal band heated red-hot and installed after it is all glued together. I hope this task is not too difficult. I plan on heating it with an acetylene torch, are there any tricks to this, or better ways to do it?

Thank ya'll.

NitroSteel

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #6 on:** June 27, 2009, 02:33:06 PM »

So with a 6 degree angle, is the axle also at 6 degrees or are there examples of some axles at angle and examples of some not?

cannonmn · « **Reply #7 on:** June 27, 2009, 07:27:02 PM »

Quote

I plan on heating it with an acetylene torch, are there any tricks to this, or better ways to do it?

Sorry I missed the dimensions of your wheel, but the people I know who do wheels heat the tire with charcoal. They make a circular trough for the charcoal to sit in, with air coming in the bottom of the trough. That way the tire can get red-not all around at the same time. They use a traveler to measure the wooden wheel's circumference so the tire will be sized correctly.

Victor3 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 28, 2009, 12:32:09 AM »

NitroSteel,

Don't take this as questioning your abilities; I have no idea how handy you are with such things. I've never made any wooden wheels myself so consider the below as just musings of a shade-tree tinkerer...

I think it would be much easier to make the wheels if you did them un-dished. The 6 degree angle will introduce some variables, especially if you're planning on heat-shrinking the tires on.

If you decide to go with the 6 degrees and heat-shrunk tires, I'd want to be sure that the angles/diameters of the holes in both hub and wheel segments are uniform and centered/matched on the parts, and that the pressure applied to the spokes is the same on all as the tire cools. This will require some measure of precision and uniformity in all of the parts, as there will be a lot of pressure applied to them by the tire as it shrinks that will tend to push things out of allignment. Getting the right amount of shrinkage might be hit-and-miss.

You might consider either making the spokes straight, or assembling dished wheels with adhesive and add the tires without shrink-fitting them.

dan610324 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 28, 2009, 12:46:37 AM »

YOU SHOULD ABSOLUTELY NOT HAVE IT RED HOT .
maybe 350 degrees celsius , but not red
then you got a layer of charcoal between the tire and the wood , the tire must not burn the wood to charcoal .

KABAR2 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 28, 2009, 03:02:04 AM »

Unless you are pushing for authenticity you could make the wheel without the dish,
the main reason wheels were dished was because of road conditions and the heavy
load they carried, a dished wheel gives some spring to the wheel, so like spring suspension
on a car, the wheel would give a little so it wouldn't shatter under the load.
our cannons today are hauled in a truck bed or trunk of a car and will never see a rough rutted dirt road
unless you are re-enacting and have a full crew with horses and a caisson.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #11 on:** June 28, 2009, 07:49:13 AM »

Quote from: Cat Whisperer on June 27, 2009, 02:33:06 PM

So with a 6 degree angle, is the axle also at 6 degrees or are there examples of some axles at angle and examples of some not?

Cat, the downward angle on the conical axle arm has to be there to compensate for the "dish" of the wheel, that angle is what positions the bottom spoke of the wheel to be perpendicular to the ground, and it also positions the the bottom of the wheel (the outside surface, which in this case would be the line formed by the outer suface of an iron tyre where it met the ground) to ride flat over the surface it's travelling over, or resting on; if the axle arms weren't angled downward the wheels would be riding on edge. These two angles (dish and axle arm) have to go hand in hand, they're two parts of the same invention, one without the other would make for a very dysfunctional wheel.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #12 on:** June 28, 2009, 08:22:34 AM »

The description and reasoning is clear and straight forward. I had asked because I've seen, either in illustration or picture SOMEWHERE, dished wheels but with the TOP portion vertical and the bottom splayed out. Hence, my question. SOMEWHERE someone got it wrong.

THANKS!

Articifer Tom · « **Reply #13 on:** June 28, 2009, 10:20:13 AM »

You may want to consider pulling the rim together and welding .I done it on 7 set of different size wheels give you better control ,ability to cut rim as it tightens , and only a small burning of wood under weld that can be puttyed and is painted .If articifers would had welders back then ,they would have used them.

NitroSteel · « **Reply #14 on:** June 28, 2009, 11:24:22 AM »

I was thinking that I was going to pull the ends together (weld a tab on each end - and pull together similar to the lid on a metal drum), cut the excess and weld it. I'm glad you mention that this works fine. I'm quite sure this is what I'll do. And also, I think I'll end up with straight spokes, not "dished", if there is no real problem with them.

If there is a problem with either of these two items, please let me know soon, because I will be proceeding to work on these very soon.

Thank ya'll.

NitroSteel

GGaskill · « **Reply #15 on:** June 28, 2009, 01:22:19 PM »

I have yet to build any wooden wheels (so take these comments with a grain of salt) but to the connoisseur of artillery, the lack of dish will be noticed, maybe by a compliment such as "nice wagon wheels you have there." If you choose to include dish, I think you should not shrink the tires on because the shrink force will tend to pull the spokes over farther since the force will be off center. American pattern wheels have bolts through the fellies to retain the tires.

Articifer Tom · « **Reply #16 on:** June 28, 2009, 02:47:38 PM »

I'm in favor of dish it's not much additional work ,cut some angles ,tenon drill angle on spokes ,and camber axle.
A note on pulling I found welding 3/4 " pipe on flat stock stand offs to be below joint so it can be trimmed . One set on each side ,all -thread rod with washers and nuts . Tighten till it hurts " crackles " , also heat rim with torch to get that little extra expansion and sink.
I may have some pics if I confused you.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 28, 2009, 03:54:34 PM »

Quote from: Articifer Tom on June 28, 2009, 02:47:38 PM

I'm in favor of dish it's not much additional work ,cut some angles ,tenon drill angle on spokes ,and camber axle.
A note on pulling I found welding 3/4 " pipe on flat stock stand offs to be below joint so it can be trimmed . One set on each side ,all -thread rod with washers and nuts . Tighten till it hurts " crackles " , also heat rim with torch to get that little extra expansion and sink.
I may have some pics if I confused you.

Articfer tom,

Could you do a photo tutorial on building wheels? It would add greatly to this site, and it something not often covered.

Allen <><

Rickk · « **Reply #18 on:** June 30, 2009, 06:33:24 AM »

Quote

I plan on heating it with an acetylene torch, are there any tricks to this, or better ways to do it?

It will take you a lot of acetylene (and oxygen as well) to heat it it. Propane would be way cheaper and way cleaner. A common propane torch head on a 6 foot hose and a 20# propane tank adapter would be the way to go if you want to use gas.

I personally found acetylene to be so dirty and expensive that I switched over my oxy/gas torch to run on oxygen/propane instead of oxygen/acetylene. That was a few years ago and I am still on the same 20# propane tank fill that I started with. Oddly enough, the welding supply house that I used to get acetylene from switched all the setups in their own shop over to propane as well. They are glad to sell acetylene if someone wants it, but they don't personally use it at all any more.

I also have a straight propane (no oxygen) head on a 6' hose connected to a 20# propane tank for general heating use. Again, the 20# tank lasts almost forever.

A suitable sized fire pit burned down to coals might be worth considering as well.

Rick

NitroSteel · « **Reply #19 on:** June 30, 2009, 07:45:32 AM »

Here's what I came up with (roughly)

NitroSteel · « **Reply #20 on:** June 30, 2009, 07:57:29 AM »

I finally got all of the wood parts cut and glued together (though they are in TERRIBLE need of sanding). The bulk of the structural work is done. Now I've got to band the wheels and hubs, make the trunnion straps to hold the barrel in, caps the wheels and pin them on, and make the elevation adjustment screw. Then it will be time to paint it and add the little pieces of miscellaneous hardware.

I am not going to try and shrink the tires on, I am confident (though I may be wrong) that I can get them very tight without doing this (I'll weld once it is tight). I elected not to "dish" the wheels. I retrospect I'm glad I didn't. I had a hard enough time drilling the holes perfectly without the additional "thinking" required on my part. BTW, it is roughly a 1/2 scale Parrot.

I forgot how bad manual labor is, my hands are killing me...

What do ya'll think?

Thank ya'll for all of your help.

NitroSteel

NitroSteel · « **Reply #21 on:** June 30, 2009, 08:01:21 AM »

Here is what I'm using (along with a ball peen hammer) to shape the bands to be used for tires, along with another picture of the cannon.

NitroSteel · « **Reply #22 on:** June 30, 2009, 08:06:33 AM »

GGaskill,

Do the bolts go all the way through the tires and through the wood of the fellow with a nut on the inside? Are they sanded smooth or left sticking out? Do you have a picture that you can post of how this is done?

Thank you.

NitroSteel

Rickk · « **Reply #23 on:** June 30, 2009, 10:30:19 AM »

If you are not going to shrink the bands on, at least make sure the wood is very dry before you force the bands on. If they have more than minimal moisture content, they will shrink as they continue drying and loosen.

I wonder if Urethane glue between the band and the wood would help you out? It expands as it cures, and it sticks just about forever to anything it touches (like my hands).

Cannoneer · « **Reply #24 on:** June 30, 2009, 12:22:20 PM »

NitroSteel,
On the original U.S. artillery carriage wheels, the tyres were heat shrunk over the felloes, and then also bolted through the felloes; this was done because these wheels were intended to endure one heck of a beating for as long a period as possible. The outside surface of the tyre was smooth, the bolt head would be made flush to the surface, but the bolt, washer, and nut were visible on the inside surface (belly) of the felloe.

Open the website (British enthusiasts of American CW artillery) I've posted below, and keep clicking "next page" at the bottom of each page.

OPEN SESAME

thelionspaw · « **Reply #25 on:** June 30, 2009, 01:24:38 PM »

And to think that some people would paint that

SLEEPY BEEPER · « **Reply #26 on:** July 01, 2009, 02:52:11 AM »

I second the welding of a tab (piece of angle iron) and pulling it up with a bolt. I did this with a set of 48 inch wheels. It worked well. You can heat the rim with a small propane torch and get it tighter before welding. But you must have someone continue heating the rim with the propane torch as you weld. Otherwise the band will start shrinking and crack the weld before it freezes. Make sure you have the rim centered where you want it before welding. After welding and cooling I found my rim off center by a 1/8 inch. I tried pounding it over with a big hammer and it wouldn't move. So I live with it.

NitroSteel · « **Reply #27 on:** July 04, 2009, 05:30:52 AM »

I have alot of miscellanous metal hardware to make, sanding and painting or staining (what should I do?). But here's what I have so far.

What do ya'll think?

Cannoneer · « **Reply #28 on:** July 04, 2009, 05:46:52 AM »

It looks good! How'd you end up securing the tyres on the wheels?

NitroSteel · « **Reply #29 on:** July 04, 2009, 07:04:55 AM »

Thank you.

I bent circles out of the steel and cut it about 2 inches longer than required. I was able to round it out enough to get it over the fellows. I then welded short pieces of angle iron a few inches from each end and used a piece of 3/8" threaded rod and 2 nuts with washers to pull the ends together. I cut off the ends as they pulled together and welded the seam. There WERE some noticeably flat spots on the tires, but I beat them out with the hammer as I pull the ends tight. I think I will end up bolting through the tires and putting nuts on the inside of the fellows. Should I do between every spoke or every-other spoke?

It worked pretty well. Very pleased with it, I just can't decide whether to paint it or stain it.

NitroSteel