1873 38 WCF or 44 WCF????

[southarkrob]

I am thinking about buying a 1873 Winchester repro from Cimarron or the like and can't decide between 38/40 or 44-40. I want it for the close shot under 100yards on deer...mainly antlerless days. I know there are better guns available and I own them but I have always wanted a 1873 and can't help but think the guy in 1875 didn't think he was undergunned when he bought it. Anybody hunt with either of these calibers? I am leaning towards the 38-40.... don't know why other than I like the oddball sometimes. Do you use smokeless or BP??? thanks Robbie

[Rangr44]

I think you're leaning in the right direction, with the .38-40, as I've read several threads elsewhere, about the sub-par quality/sizes of some Euro-made .44-40 bores - unless the said rifle was an expensive, Euro-only special order.

.

[Harry O]

I agree with the 38-40 recommendation.  I have a Uberti 1873 Winchester rifle-clone in 38-40 and am very happy with it. I did have to change some springs since the "lever safety" they have is way, way too stiff, but that is not expensive.  I also have two Uberti SAA clones in 38-40 and use them in CAS shooting with good results.

I started out with 44-40 and gave up after a lot of fighting with the guns.  They included a Marlin 1894, a Rossi 1892 clone, and two Ruger Vaqueros.  The dimensions were all over the map.  The Rugers went back to Ruger twice and they refused to fix them.  The chambers were snug, the cylinder throat was undersized and the barrel was oversized (left over .44 Magnum barrels).  Because of the snug chambers, I could not use .44 Magnum sized bullets.  Both of the rifles had .44 Magnum barrels, but at least both of them had loose enough chambers to allow 0.431" bullets.  Of course, that meant a lot of working the brass and they did not last very long.  After a couple of years of trying, I gave up and moved on to the 38-40.

If you have a choice, get the 38-40.  It will be better for your blood pressure all around.

[Oldtimer]

I have killed several deer with the .44-40, both with lead BP loads and with jacketed smokeless rounds, but not factory.  Shots were well within fifty yards, and I recovered all the deer, though not one of the bullets.  I doubt most deer would know the difference between being hit with a .44 or a .38. 

With the 1873, you will be restricted to BP level loads, so you might as well use the BP.  I had problems with my 92 pushing the bullets into the case using jacketed bullets and smokeless, but the full case of the BP load takes care of that problem.  Lead bullets and proper cleaning and your greatgrandchildren will be telling tales of hunting with that rifle. 

[Bitterroot Bob]

Howdy,
I'd have to give the nod to the 44WCF. In the 1873 action the highest level of performance will be with BP or 777 powder. The difference in velocity between the 38 and 44 is miniscule, but the 44 will handle a heavier and wider bullet.
Shot placement will be EVERYTHING out to 100 yards with both cartridges, so I'd reel in that deer to about half that distance. As far as relative accuracy goes, a medium soft bullet will drive tacks out of my Uberti 73. I had a couple of Rugers, too, and .425" cylinder throats and  .430" barrels were a poor combination. I was glad to trade the Vaqueros for .45's. I also have a Marlin 1894S chambered in .44-40 with a MicroGroove barrel. I have won money in pot-shoots using .428" bullets and 6.5 gr of Unique. Go figure. Guess nobody told the rifle that it wasn't supposed to shoot that good. I certainly won't!
Go with the .44.

Bitterroot

[Harry O]

Oldtimer had a good point (for both the 38-40 and 44-40).  The classic Lyman bullets for these cartridges (401043 for the 38-40 and the 427098 for the 44-40) require the use of black powder when used in a lever gun.  Neither one has a crimping groove.  The necks of both cases are too weak (too thin) for the case alone to hold the bullet in place if there is air space under the bullet.  The bullet will push into the case.  It has happened to me with both of them.  If you use compressed BP, neither bullet will push back into the case when used in a lever gun.

There are a few bullets out there that have grooves.  Be careful with them.  I have a 401452 and an NEI, both with crimp grooves.  However, neither one of them will work reliably in my lever gun.  The 1873 is VERY critical with overall length of the cartridge.  Too short, and it will not work (the next cartridge in the tube will cause problems).  Too long, and it will not work (it won't clear the tube itself).  For example, my Uberti 1873 clone in 38-40 works great up to about 1.598" OAL and down to about 1.586" OAL.  Anything beyond that, they start to jam.  The 401452 is much longer than that and will not work in any way shape or form.  It works great in my revolvers, though.  The NEI is pushing the longer limit and about 1 out of 20 will jam.

I have been using Cheyenne 38-40 bullets and they work every time.  They have a crimp groove set at a nominal 1.592" OAL.  Even with the minor differences in length from one cartridge to another, they never get near the upper or lower limit.

I have had somewhat similar problems with my 44-40's, but have not spent nearly as much time with them.  What Bitterroot said about the Marlin is correct.  It is accurate (provided you use 0.431" or 0.432" bullets).  However, in doing that the case comes out almost straight and gets worked a lot when being reloaded.  Short case life.  I had problems with that one with crimp grooves, too.

[John Y Cannuck]

I have an original '92 Winchester in 44-40. I've taken deer with it at velocities as low as 900fps. That was shot at about 50 feet. Bullet was not recovered.
the rifle began life with a very bad 38-40 barrel, and as the rifle was a beater, it was changed to the 44-40.
The bad barrel in the 38-40 made for terrible groups. no way I could hunt with it.

The 38-40 trouble i had was finding suitable bullets for reloading. There weren't many. 10mm bullets I tried had the crimp groove in the wrong place.

44-40 I can size factory bullets, or use cast.

[Bitterroot Bob]

Howdy,
Harry O said: "What Bitterroot said about the Marlin is correct.  It is accurate (provided you use 0.431" or 0.432" bullets).  However, in doing that the case comes out almost straight and gets worked a lot when being reloaded.  Short case life.  I had problems with that one with crimp grooves, too."
I derived tack-driving accuracy from my Marlin using .428" lead bullets. My rifle is a pre-Centennial 1894 that was part of a special order from some sporting goods distributor back in the 1980's. It has the standard .430" Microgroove barrel. I have seen no deformed brass upon firing factory ammo or my reloads. Maybe the later cowboy versions were a little wierd, but mine shoots just great.
A note about the Lyman #427098 bullet. The ogive starts very low on the bullet and most crimping dies won't fold the brass enough to completely form the mouth to the bullet. I have an old (circa 1880) tong tool that I use following seating and partial crimping with standard dies. Brass can be trimmed to move the case mouth back, but as long as I have my crimping tool, I will avoid doing that. The #427098 is a great bullet that holds a lot of grease, but I only use it with FFg.
A better bullet is the Lee 200gr RNFP. It has two grease grooves and a crimp groove in the right location. For smokeless, I use Lasercast, or whoever makes a clean .428" 200gr RNFP cowboy bullet. The crimp grooves are always in the right spot and OAL works in the '73 and Marlin.
I prefer Winchester brass as it is the thinnest and will hold more BP than the other makers. The thin brass also swells and seals the chamber tightly, leaving virtually no fouling in the action. I have loaded them several times and have only discarded two, so far (in the heat of battle they were loaded on-the-clock into a .45 Colt Vaquero. They hit the target, but without much authority!).

Good luck,
Bitterroot

[Oldtimer]

Bitterroot Bob brings up an interesting issue, the chamber shape in various brands of guns.  My first .44-40 was an Uberti revolver and the chambers were very tight.  I then bought a Smith and Wesson that has such loose chambers I could probably reload the fired cases for .45 Colts.  My Rossi 92 also has a tight chamber, and so does my Regulator, which I bought as a project gun, and which shoots better than it should.  I also agree on the use of Winchester brass.  It obdurates much better, especially at BP pressures.

When you look at the actual bullet diameter of the two cartridges, the .38-40 is .401 and the .44-40 is around .425, so the difference is much less than saying .38 and .44 would suggest.  With BP loads, you would have to be really good to tell the difference in recoil between the two rounds, especially if you are using a rifle-size 73.

[mcwoodduck]

I think your asking the 280 Vs 30-06 question.
Both are real similar is case shape, both have sililar bullet size and design, and the 38 in 38-40 is the black powder charge.
the 40 in the 44-40 is the black powder charge.  Similar weight bullet similar powder charge.... Same rounds.
I would look at what I have the easiest access to in factory ammo and reloading components to make my choice.

[Blackhawk44]

Southark, either cartridge will do fine.  One thing though, I'd lean more toward a proven Uberti (for 40 years) over the Chiappa.  Word is they still have some growing pains.  Some distributors also have been rumored to be a little weak on follow up service.  Unfortunately, Cimarron is one of them.  Taylor's and EMF seem to be well regarded.  You might see if they carry Uberti.

Experience has shown than the rifles are chambered a good bit more closely than the cheaper (less than Colt or USFA) revolvers.  In fact, some have very tight chambers and throats, nothing like that using .429 inch bullets in a .431 inch bore for a .44 WCF.  Most rifles won't even chamber anything larger than a .428 in. bullet.

If you go for a .38WCF (which is a fine idea), call CH/4D and get one of their canneluring tools.  With that, any bullet made for the .40 S&W/10mm, cast or jacketed, can be used, and are a lot easier to find than anything marked .38-40. They shoot just fine. They just need the right crimping cannelure.  I picked up a couple of thousand pre-cast .40's for a friend and his .38-40 on a closeout a while back, for a song, and he is still giddy.   

[southarkrob]

Thanks Guys...I appreciate all of the input... I kick myself for passing on all the original 73's in 44-40 and 38/40 I could have bought in my younger days...before I knew the value of them... I learned alot...thanks Robbie

[Bitterroot Bob]

Kind of interesting about the '73.
Winchester continued that rifle until 1937, 45 years after the stronger Model 92 went on the market. The cartridges that it can handle put limitations on its use, but what it does, it does really well!
Eventually I will own a Model 92, and probably in .38-40. Just because I need a new set of dies and another mould.

Bitterroot

[Lurker]

I have recently bought two, new, Cimarron 1873 Deluxe Sporting Rifles, with 24" barrels. One in .38-40, and one in .44-40. Cimarron really puts out a beautifully finished rifle in the 1873 Deluxe Sporting Rifle. For what they cost, they should.

I like both of the rifles, and both of the cartridges. My grandfather who lived from 1850 to 1950, had rifles in both calibers too.

I will soon have one more of the same, only this time it will be in .32-20.

Bill

[Lurker]

I think your asking the 280 Vs 30-06 question.
Both are real similar is case shape, both have sililar bullet size and design, and the 38 in 38-40 is the black powder charge.
the 40 in the 44-40 is the black powder charge.  Similar weight bullet similar powder charge.... Same rounds.
I would look at what I have the easiest access to in factory ammo and reloading components to make my choice.

The above is not exactly right...

The .38 in the .38-40 is the caliber of the cartridge. In both cartridges, the 40 is the original black powder charge, forty grains of black powder.

I haven't figured out why Colt, and Winchester and others, call the .38-40 a .38 caliber cartridge, when the nominal bullet diameter is .401. And, why the .44-40 is called a 44, when the nominal bullet diameter is .427.

Using the word nominal here, means what the dimensions nominally, should have been, regardless of what diameters the barrels and cylinders ended up being bored, and chambered to.

Bill

[Graybeard]

Winchester DID NOT give either cartridge that name. To Winchester they were and are and always will be the .38 WCF and .44 WCF. They were marked on the brass plate on them as that not with the -40 after them. Those came later from other companies not Winchester.

Cartridge names are a strange and mixed lot and about as many do not represent what they really are as do. The .357 magnum is one of the few exceptions unlike the .38 special which uses the same bullet. Much of it traces back to the old heeled bullets which were of case diameter outside and smaller inside the case. Later when inside lubed bullets fit fully into the case the same barrel diameters were used but without the heel and this led to some odd designations.

But you are correct I don't think anyone alive today has a clue what the .38-40 is called a .38 when it is in fact a .40. The .44s generally are because of heeled vs current inside lubed bullets. Still they never were really .440" in diameter anywhere any time. Just one more quirk of cartridge nomenclature.

[Harry O]

If you get proper chambers and proper barrel diameters, I agree that there is no practical difference between the 44-40 and 38-40. 

I have 4 guns chambered in each caliber.  The problem is that NONE of the 44-40's had proper dimensions and were as different as can be from each other.  The Rugers have tight chambers, an undersized throat, and an oversized bore.  I cannot chamber anything larger than 0.428" bullet in it (and that is pretty iffy -- 0.427" is better), and the accuracy with that is poor.  The Rossi and the Marlin both have an oversized chamber and bore.  I can chamber up to 0.432" and both are accurate with that.  I have tried 0.427" and 0.428" in both of them, but got leading and poor accuracy.  The leading was worse with the Marlin.  It was the worst leading I ever got.  It looked like the barrel was smoothbore the first several inches in front of the chamber.  (P.S.  I tried shooting some jacketed factory 44-40's in it to "shoot-out" the leading.  That did not work either.  All it did was spread the leading further down the barrel).  In other words, I cannot shoot a single cartridge in all of them and get any kind of accuracy at all.

The four 38-40's I have, have chambers and barrels that are properly sized and are accurate right out of the box.  I shoot the same cartridge (bullet, case, powder, and powder charge) in all of them.

So, if you can take a chamber cast and slug the bore of the 44-40 BEFORE you buy, you can probably find one that is right.  If not, I think that you are better off getting a 38-40.