What Color Should the Big French Mortar Bed be?

[seacoastartillery]

   Boom J:

You probably know that a Lieutenant Daniel Tyler was sent to France to study the French artillery system in Jan. 1828, and he returned in 1829, bringing back a wealth of information and drawings that he presented to the Ordnance Department; but did he also bring the paint formula for the French shade of green?  These photos are of artillery pieces in the Hotel des Invalides/Musee de l'Armee in Paris, but as you've already said, they can't really be used to prove the original shade of green, because who knows when these coats of paint were applied, and what toll time, and the bleaching effects of the sun have had on the pigments used in the paint. 

    Boom J,    We were not aware of this mission to France by Lt. Tyler, another piece of the incredibly complex origin of our ordinance system is revealed.  Thank you.  Nothing is more unreliable than original, old paint fragments and it and it brings a smile to my face every time I hear words to this effect:  "We are so excited at the Institute; we finally have direct evidence as to the exact shade of that 1797  ship's paint.  Dr. Perfect and his staff meticulously scraped the modern paint off layer by layer until the original color was revealed!"
The self-importance and extreme puffery displayed by some academics is truly astounding.  I would love to ask them only two questions which are:  "What reason do you think those 18th century sailors had for re-painting that commercial vessel?"  "How about FADE or Deterioration maybe?"  Determined the exact color she was painted?  Balderdash!! 

     Tim,,,We certainly have to give you an 'A' for persistence!  We are sort of partial to those colors too, in a different order.  We were amazed to learn that the colors of the French National flag go all the way back to 1794 and that there is an interesting reason for the precedence of colors in the French Tricolour.  There are many, many ideas about the meaning of the colors and precedence, but the one we like the best is simple.  Blue and Red are the colors of Paris and represent the country's people, while the color, White represents the  Monarchy, specifically the Bourbon Dynasty.  Note how they placed the Monarchy between the people so the will of the people could more easily control the Monarchy!  Too bad we "commoners" in the U.S. are not having any success in reigning in our own government!!

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

[carronader]

That green Mortar also is at the Musee.I posted it to show the French liking for green,information was lost when the image didn't send on first try.Am going to Bath and Bristol next week,anybody wanting specific photos or such,let me know and I'll  see what I can do,also anybody with must see stuff in Budapest,would you let me know,from what I can see on the net not a lot of interesting stuff over there.(Wife's idea not mine)  maybe she's pining for the old days.........damn Ruskie.

[Cat Whisperer]

Kabar  --  YES!

Putting those two characters together captures much of the emotions and feelings of how we perceive the French. !!!   

[Cat Whisperer]

 
...
...the colors of the French National flag go all the way back to 1794 and that there is an interesting reason for the precedence of colors in the French Tricolour.  There are many, many ideas about the meaning of the colors and precedence, but the one we like the best is simple.  Blue and Red are the colors of Paris and represent the country's people, while the color, White represents the  Monarchy, specifically the Bourbon Dynasty.  Note how they placed the Monarchy between the people so the will of the people could more easily control the Monarchy! 
...
Regards,
Mike and Tracy

THANK YOU!  (I"m glad that someone caught it!)

[Rickk]

Way back then the choice of pigment materials was much more limited. Pigments were not synthetic, but made from "real stuff".  For instance, Barns were painted red because that was the color of rusted iron. Rust was plentiful, so red was a common color and a cheap paint.

For green, I am taking a stab in the dark here and guessing that copper oxide may have been the pigment used to make green. I can't guess on the amount used however, so the shade (light to dark) would be a total guess.

Rick

[KABAR2]

Way back then the choice of pigment materials was much more limited. Pigments were not synthetic, but made from "real stuff".  For instance, Barns were painted red because that was the color of rusted iron. Rust was plentiful, so red was a common color and a cheap paint.

For green, I am taking a stab in the dark here and guessing that copper oxide may have been the pigment used to make green. I can't guess on the amount used however, so the shade (light to dark) would be a total guess.

Rick

Yes most paint was derived from metals some of them toxic like lead,  and depending on how much of the various elements were added is where you get variation in color,
I don't think formulas were followed Presley as is supposed individual mixed would get it close, if one person was mixing it for years he would keep some consistency in  color
but the amount weighed in may have been judgment. these paints were not made in a lab, and measuring equipment was not that elaborate, I wonder how long a person lasted
as a paint mixer with the toxic nature of some of the metals they came in contact with........

M&T are right, labs now a days may come close to an original color, they can figure out what metals and how much are in a sample, but they cannot determine is how these elements
degraded and what elements added themselves to the mix such as salt etc. they may come close but that's as good as it gets,  only when original formulas are know can you get really
close. example I cut a section of metal out of a WW II MV the underside had it's original paint undisturbed unbleached by daylight, when compared to modern day paint made from
the original formula it was only a shade off from the original. 

[Rickk]

http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ%20Reports/USNTMJ-200I-0552-0583%20Report%20S-59.pdf

Wrong country, but worth reading.

Rick

[Victor3]

 I'm thinking green and red with a thick clear-coat.

 Green - The $$$ invested.

 Red - Blood.

 Clear-coat - Sweat & tears.

 Aint gonna be easy to top this project M&T. A ton of work, and I hope all who see the final product will appreciate what you've put into it.

[Rickk]

I spent a bit of time surfing about, looking for how they made paint in the "olden days".  Apararently the base most commonly used was proteins derived from spoiled mlk, mixed with lime. Various natural things were added to add color.

If you don't want to mess around with letting milk go bad and formulating it yourself, this company has all the stuff needed to make it in just about any color you want:

http://www.milkpaint.com/

Rick

[seacoastartillery]

   First,  I forgot to thank Carronader for posting that great looking green Bombard/Mortar.  Looking at that huge stone ball, you can just imagine the royal artillery "Stone Ball Chiselers" at the bars every evening in the weeks before the Royal Artillery Train went on campaign.  They would be singing popular songs and there would be a great deal of tankards clanking together and yelling of "Here's to OVERTIME, sweet, sweet overtime!"

     Thanks to everyone for all those paint suggestions and research info.  Rick, I noticed that even the Japanese like "Paris Green" as an ingredient in one of their modern warship paints.  Milk paints are also very interesting and go way, way back in their use history.  They are great for kid toys too, being non-toxic.  The chemical that would probably be my first choice for a prime ingredient would be the cupric oxide that you mentioned.  But, alas, it just isn't so.  In further reading we were finally able to uncover a paint recipe  and it is from an official contemporary source.

     In 1789, the first year in which the use of green paint for artillery carriages occurred in France, General Gassendi recorded the new paint's formula.  We think that his command may have been charged with reporting on the durability of the new paint under field conditions.  He reports that a batch which would cover 18 caissons with one coat consisted of 36 pounds of yellow ochre, 3 pounds of fine powdered black charcoal, 1 pound 8 ounces of litharge ( a protoxide of lead, it's chemical reaction with oils helped dry the paint ) and 20 pounds of linseed oil. 

     So, how can yellow and black make green?  To understand that you must be much more familiar with pigments than we are, but it's handy to remember that in the visible spectrum, the presence of all colors yields white light, but in Degas', Delacrois' and Millet's world, the presence of all pigments yields the color, black. 

     Allen, you were the first to mention lead, right on.  And Victor, thank's for your continued confidence in us, just hope that it's not in vain.  Actually, we are predicting a late next week unveiling if all comes together as we have scheduled it.  Lots of clear coat in this thing, Victor, lots and lots!

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

[GGaskill]

That formula sounds very much like the one used by the US on its green carriages.

[RocklockI]

paint it already ! lets go test the thingage . when i was looking for a 'revolutionary war period rifle'

the very first thing that dawned on me was ...there is no real patterns , just schools of thought . lancaster , york , becker , this county the other county . brass ,german silver , 8 point  stars weeping hearts what ever . get what ever you like cause they used it . i'm a sucker for brass .....

every single one was differant and came with their own sized mold .....

there is NO doubt in my own little pea brain that the shade of green was differant in every single batch that they made . even today they have a hard time 'matching paint' if you go back for another can .

paint the darn thing and lets go .  who do you think will know the differance ,where you alive then .....me niether . so there .

[seacoastartillery]

     We just finished all the woodwork on the Monster Mortar bed, including the painting too.  We think it looks great and the color is, to my eyes, just about perfect.  The fact that we put two coats of primer and two coats of green did create one problem, however.  The large, heavy, wooden wedges of the bed's core which support the baseplate, tube and cosmetic steel shroud fit very precisely into the bed's outer structure.  When we finally had dry paint we anxiously fed the wedges into the bed with the back, timber, panel off.  With all five, 75 pound wedges in place, we tried to put the back panel in place.  The splines and grooves were mismatched by a little under 1/4"!  We were dealing with 16 coats of paint on the various mating surfaces, each about .015" thick or about .240" total!  This morning we had to carry each wedge into the basement to trim off a quarter inch.  Great way to start the day, more heavy lifting!  It all fits now and boring of the two large 7/8" Dia. core-locking cross-bolts is next.  These secure the 350 pound timber core to the surrounding mortar bed frame so that the recoil impulse upon the back panel is reduced enormously. 

     Anyway, we are milling metal tomorrow and look forward to posting a few pics on those operations on Sunday or Monday.  Enjoy the photos.

Regards,

Mike and Tracy


Primer goes on the wedges of the "core".




2nd primer coat dries and is ready for 1st color coat in the morning.




Gary, Rocklock1 helps us paint and three hours later we have two coats of beautiful green on the big French mortar.




The Old Salt sure knows how to paint!  Must have been all that practice he got painting his destroyer while in the Navy.




The wedges pile up and are kept separated for a whole day to dry completely.  The 125 pound sides are slower to arrive at the assembly area, requiring more effort to get them there.




Mike contemplates the partial assembly.  His shadow reminds me of a billboard for one of those adventure flicks which feature a guy with a bullwhip and a large .45 cal. Colt D.A. revolver.




We took this pic before we knew that the back panel would not fit.




Mike paints the top plate of the cosmetic shroud.




We like that hammered black paint a lot.

[seacoastartillery]

     What do you guys think about that shade of green?  Am I nuts to like it so much?

Tracy

[dan610324]

it remind me toooooo much of the swedish cammo paint we used in the army 

[GGaskill]

What do you guys think about that shade of green?

As a color, it is fine, but it is a little green to my view for olive drab.  More like the following:

[KABAR2]

M&T I tend to agree with GGaskill, it looks a little too bright a shade..... as always our opinions are subjective..........
as long as you are satisfied that is what matters, now get this beast loaded and let's see some smoke & fire! 




Oh and by the way I don't know if you know this but the color you prime with does have a lot to do with the final color,

[Spuddy]

The green looks great to me, but I have to admit that Gary's hat is amazing!

[seacoastartillery]

     Dan,  For your darker, conifer forests, it would be very well camoflaged.  Sounds like you really love that color!    George, don't worry, under the big, intensely blue, sky of Montana, the Monster's green paint will appear just as you have depicted it!  Allen, smoke and fire is on the schedule in approx. one week and we are looking forward to it!!  Spuddy, is that one of those Maine Potatoes hats?  If we were PC like Gary, we would be wearing our's as well.  But we are about as un-PC as you can get, so we didn't.  If we are unsure about any new PC trends, we simply Email George in Cal.  He knows all about the latest things that you can't say, buy, write or drive.   

Love that green!!

Mike and Tracy

[Double D]

You are coming to Farm country, add a yellow stripe, these guys up here will love it...in fact they will all want one...

[dan610324]

now its 30 years ago , so now its ok 
but if you had asked me 30 years ago I would probably have puked om your feet 

[carronader]

can we please see some smoke,I don't even like mortars but that brute has class all of it's own.

[RocklockI]

The green looks great to me, but I have to admit that Gary's hat is amazing!

Spuddy , you are right it is the hat you gave me . it has a nice strechy feature. it goes thru the cycles like my other hats . Thanks again 

did you ever shoot those steel balls?

[RocklockI]

the color is OD no getting around it . now i didnt have the mil spec piant chip ,but like you guys i know it when i see it .

but with the black tube and hardware it will look just fine plus with the unpainted wooden base will set it off too .

8000lbs and what do you get ? montana's big sky full of cement .

i think it would make a nice motar barge just back the whole thing into the water and unhook it and off you go . all flags and pennets hoisted .   AAaarrgggg !

8 feet wide and 14 foot long . with an 11 inch mortar in the middle . 

 

[Cannoneer]

M&T,

I think the green you chose looks fine; in one photo it's a darker shade, then in another it appears lighter, so like you said, someone that hasn't viewed it up close and personal, probably isn't getting the exact tone of the green. I agree with Gary that the contrast between the black tube and green bed when combined are going to improve the look of the whole.

Now, if Gary doesn't mind me paraphrasing him: It's now time to get this "thingage" out into the field, so we can witness how the magical effects of expanding gasses in a confined space can cause a heavy projectile to sail up into the sky. I for one, can't wait to see your mortar fired. 

[RocklockI]

the thingage is coming together nicley  soon ,,,,,

[Double D]

I keep looking at this thing and keep getting the feeling something is missing...it finally came to  me....it is something that Evil Dog said

I've always kinda liked mine.

You need a tampion just like his for travel up the freeway.

[KABAR2]

I keep looking at this thing and keep getting the feeling something is missing...it finally came to  me....it is something that Evil Dog said

I've always kinda liked mine.

You need a tampion just like his for travel up the freeway.

Yes but add to it...... "SMILE WHEN YOU CALL ME THAT!"

[Cat Whisperer]

NOW for the important question, now that the color has been chosen, applied and discussed ---


What is the motar's NAME?   "she" or "it" just doesn't do it; it HAS to have a personalized name!

[dominick]

I like the color combo.  I think that shade green looks better on that type of mortar than olive drab.  There were several examples of early ordinance that had brighter colors anyway.  My opinion.