Author Topic: Thoughts on 'Survival trucks' (Read 5458 times)

don heath · « **on:** July 08, 2009, 09:27:47 PM »

This started on the firearms –is one enough, but off topic so thought it better to start a new thread.

I look at many folk’s ‘survival’ trucks on both this and a couple of other forums and shudder. Especially folk on a tight budget, so thought I would share.

When I joined Government service I had an old petrol (gas) landrover that was older than I. It wasn’t the most reliable thing in the world but it had a couple of great virtues in a survival situation- you could run it on just about anything. Over the years I had it, it mostly ran on ‘power paraffin’ – a 50/50 mix of petrol and illuminating paraffin (gas and Kerosene in American) , but at odd times it got a dose of av gas, ran for two years entirely on pure ethanol, and one - occasion, diesel. It didn’t like it, but at full choke it ran- and driving a spluttering truck sure as hell beats walking and carrying a ton of kit! It could also be easily repaired.- I used the oesophagus from an eland to fix a burst radiator hose once.

Later I got an oldish land cruiser diesel. I ran it on pure illuminating paraffin for 6 years (oh yes, put ½ of 1% oil in the drums to lubricate the injector pump) and then switched to home made bio diesel when Zim ran out of fuel in 1999

My current truck has too many electronic gadgets in the system- it is not ‘field reparable’ and the engine light comes on if you stick bio diesel or Jet A1 in the tank! The carbon output from the exhaust doesn’t match what it is programmed for!

Same goes for my generators- the old Briggs and Straton gas engine runs on just about anything – usually ethanol at present. My new Diesel one will not work even with ‘high sulphur’ diesel!

A mate of mine built the ultimate African Survival wagon – based on a datsun (pre Nissan) 1200 Engine. Pulls a 3 ton trailer – truly multi fuel use etc. If folk are interested, can take this topic further

oldyardog · « **Reply #1 on:** July 09, 2009, 02:02:31 AM »

This is supr interesting. I will watch this with much interest. I do not have any information to share but an eager to learn.

Oldyardog

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #2 on:** July 09, 2009, 02:56:48 AM »

One thing to keep in mind is the older diesel trucks don't have the elec. ignition like the new ones and can run when the new ones won't . I have had 4 diesels and they are the way to go as most will give alot of miles for on board fuel . 3/4 ton seems to be a good size , i like the 4 door short bed the best . A diesel tractor is also a good thing to have along with a wagon or trl. A good jack and plate to support it along with tools , axe , tow straps and chain are good to keep in the truck . Food , water and firstaid also . I like to keep a portable power pack to jump start it and jumper cables . A come along is nice also and not a target like a winch , carry a boat anchor if you operate in areas with out trees to attach to .

ShadowMover · « **Reply #3 on:** July 09, 2009, 05:56:59 AM »

A friend of mine who was a kid during WW2 when gas was rationed said everyone would run their cars and tractors on kerosene. The big trick is to keep the engine warm. You have to start the car on gasoline to get it warm and then switch over to kerosene after it's warm. If you want to run it the next day, be sure to switch back to gasoline and run the kerosene out of the carburetor. The reason gasoline, a 'Flammable Liquid' works in a cold engine is it has a 'Flash Point' of -40 F. It will give of enough vapors at forty below zero to catch fire from a spark. Kerosene, a 'Combustible Liquid' won't do this until it warms up to 100F. Oddly enough, the auto-ignition temperature of kerosene is lower than gasoline or propane. I'm not sure biodiesel or canola oil would even work in a carburetor engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammable_liquid

Small Brigs and Stratton engines are adaptable to kerosene. Their maintenance book used to have a section in it which advised putting TWO head gaskets in it to lower the compression ratio. They also advised switching to gasoline to start and stop the engine.

What all these engine have in common is point for ignition and a carburetor. My advice to anybody wanting to have some fuel options is to get an older model truck with points and a carburetor. Buy something there are parts for, not some exotic import. I would go Chevy or Ford. Chevy has the advantage that their 350 engine series has many interchangeable parts, and is very common. Make sure you get something with points and a carburetor. Maybe some Chevy guys can advise us about retrofitting a newer 350 with older intake manifolds and a distributor.

I have an old Ford truck that will burn propane or gasoline. I got it after the 1973 gas embargo. It can carry 65 gallons of propane and 50 gallons of gasoline. Switching fuels can be done while driving. You have to realize the carburetor takes time to fill and empty, so sometimes the engine will run rich if you turn on the propane before running the carburetor dry. Going the other way, you turn on the gasoline electric pump and valve as you are coasting. The engine will die as you are doing this, so have some road speed up. After about 4 seconds you will start getting some gasoline. If you need to you can turn on the propane to get some power, it comes on and off real quick.

I haven't tried my truck on kerosene or alcohol yet, but it may happen someday. We are much more vulnerable today than we were in 1973.

Multiple fuels gives you options. Having choices keeps you rolling when times get tough. Don't forget to add a gas preservative to all your stored gasoline. That's another story.

pastorp · « **Reply #4 on:** July 09, 2009, 06:14:46 AM »

I remember the gas rationing in the early 70s. Really put the skids to our hunting for a couple of years. I didn't try alternate fuels though. Just bought what gas I could and stored any excess in a 55gal. drum. When the drum was full I put it in the back of the truck and went hunting.

I bought a new international pick-up that year but am sure it still had points and rotor in the distributor.

I suppose we should look into Willy-fuel, made from corn as a alternative. Of course I'd need to plant some corn. What I would really need here in alaska is something that would run on seal oil.

Regards,

don heath · « **Reply #5 on:** July 09, 2009, 09:39:17 PM »

A mate of mine got run off his farm in Zim in 2000. He lost just about everything (from family photo albums to his pet dog) and the bank still wanted the money he had borrowed to put a crop in- that his farm had been 'nationalised' (without compensation) wasn't the banks problem...So he went into trading in the Congo.

Problems - 2500mile round trips with no reliable chance of fuel inbetween. Not much safe drinking water once he crossed out of Zambia. Needed to be self sufficent for 3-4 weeks at a time.

So, he built a suitable mini truck- Sold the pick up he managed to get off the farm and bought a little suzuki 4x4. it sucked petrol though and wouldn't pull a big enough trailer. he scrounged an old landrover gear box off me, and a datsun 1200cc motor off another mate. Instalation was "interesting" with much bad welding (he was broke so did all work himself - including learning to weld). But at the end of it he had a little truck that would cruise at 50mph empty (using the over drive), cruise at 35mph on a tar road pulling a 3 ton trailer and creap along in low range at 5-10 mph on bad roads. In the trailer was a 850l tank for petrol and two more similar tanks for water.

Truck did 10km/l ( ie about 22m7US gal). Trailer was an old 20' container with an axel welded underneath. Served as a storage area and sleeping quaters - and could be securly locked up when he was out during the day trading.

Sucess was due to the right gear ratio and an engine that wos easy to fix, didn't overheat and would run on nearly any fuel in a pinch

Rustyinfla · « **Reply #6 on:** July 11, 2009, 03:46:15 PM »

I've been seriously thinking about buying a U.S. surplus Duece and a half ( 2& 1/2 ton) truck. They are all wheel drive and some have multi fuel engines that will burn most anything in the proper mix. My brother in law worked on them when he was in the service in the 70's.

spacer · « **Reply #7 on:** July 11, 2009, 06:15:31 PM »

Our fuel truck is an old (somewhere in the '60s) Ford F550 with a 300ci straight six.
Simple as dirt.

Breaks down fairly frequently, but when it does, all ya have to do is hit it with a hammer a few times and
it'll start workin' again. For a while, anyway. Actually, the only problem I really ever have is the fact that
the boss won't buy new fuel filters, so I periodically have to blow 'em out. Lotsa fun on a busy airport ramp.

While it'd be cheaper to run it on auto fuel, we don't have a storage tank for it. Instead, the old clunker runs
just fine on 100LL avgas. I've never tried to use Jet-A in it (our Jet fuel truck is diesel, so it runs well on the stuff),
and probably won't do much experimenting, as the truck *is* our bread 'n butter. Amazing how it just keeps on
ticking with all the abuse it's gotten, though.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #8 on:** July 12, 2009, 04:54:45 AM »

I have been collecting info on this for a while, My truck of choice is a 79 to 90 extra cab Toyota 4x4 5 speed. It is pretty easy to adapt a tractor diesel to one or adapter kits for VW diesels are out there. They key is gearing as Don pointed out, I am gonna do a straight axle conversion with 4.88 gears a 3" lift and 35" tires, add to that a double box for the transfer case and you have a gear for about anything and still maintain highway speed. With a wench a roll cage and larger fuel tank you would be well prepared for just about anything. On board air and welder are easy to add and a tool kit with some spares, Pulling a enclosed trailer will keep your survival kit dry and protected giving you a place to sleep in bad weather. It don't need to be a camper just a water proof box.

BTW a Fourrunner would work just the same.

GrassLakeRon · « **Reply #9 on:** July 12, 2009, 02:18:32 PM »

Unimog 404.1S. Go anywhere. Do almost anything. Cheap! If you wanted you could drop in a small perkins diesel to burn just about anything. Good ground clearance, payload, and easy to work on.

Ron

hillbill · « **Reply #10 on:** July 12, 2009, 03:14:52 PM »

i dont need to pull a lot, we have horses for that. but gitting aroun in a fairly rapid manner would be nice. im thinking about a diesel rail buggy.light weight and small engine would mean low fuel consumption. gearing would allow for a a resonable top speed of maybe 40 mph or so.jus havent figgered out the transmission or transaxle thing.a seperate trans and rear end will be a lot of weight and a vw transaxle might not hold up to the vibration of the diesel.diesel will also be easy to get as they dont generally keep us farmers from it even in times of war.thats as far as ive got with it so far.

matthewquigley · « **Reply #11 on:** August 06, 2009, 03:06:15 PM »

use air cooled vw beetle or van transaxle a vw rabbit diesel WILL bolt right to it i had one in a van that originally had a wasser boxer flat water cooled 4 in it a use a stock 200mm vw transporter pressure plate and a hot rod copper/sintered puck clutch
now ya got me thinking about a turboed rabbit diesel in a 4 seat chenowith buggy project

WD45 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 07, 2009, 03:06:38 AM »

Survival truck.. Ya know , I never really thought about that. Dang ,there is a lot of thinkin to this survival stuff

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #13 on:** August 07, 2009, 06:58:48 AM »

lots of stuff to it Kinda , the more you want to go on like nothing has happened the more you need to have ready . Think like you will be on an island and what ever you don't have you will have to do with out .
Then also you can look at your life and decide what you really need to have and then accept things won't be the same and make plans with that in mind . In most cases if some degree of civilization exist then a truck would be nice to have . On the other hand it could be useless with out fuel supplies that can be replaced long term .

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #14 on:** August 07, 2009, 12:53:40 PM »

I have had several VW rail buggies over the years, We call them woods cars around here, and they go like crazy, But, They can't haul much and don't do as well just creeping along at low speeds as a four wheel drive dose. Also they usually have no protection from they weather, Slogging thru the woods in a downpour at 35 or 40 degrees would be much safer in the cab of a truck or SUV add snow or ice, even more so. Hypothermia will kill you quick, If you had the resources a buggie would be great to have along with the truck as a scout type ride and use its speed to an advantage.

I have been thinking about this for awhile and I'm slowly collecting pieces parts to this puzzle and hope to have one built by this time next year, I sure hope to hear from more people on this to gather more ideals

BTW I like the term BOM (Bug out machine) for my truck, most pepole will prolly can it a bomb anyway, I don't put much stock in looks, just in performance.

matthewquigley · « **Reply #15 on:** August 07, 2009, 02:59:14 PM »

i have an 89 bronco2 4x4 2.9 its stock motor but has a 4.0 clutch and late model 5 speed mazda trans and 31x10.50 yokahama geolander mud terrains and i put lockers ( stock type) in front and rear axles has 3.55 gears i am looking for a diesel swappable motor that would have 80+ hp any ideas?

??

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #16 on:** August 09, 2009, 11:33:02 AM »

http://www.shadetreeconversions.com/index.php

Take a look at this guys stuff.

pourboy · « **Reply #17 on:** August 22, 2009, 04:14:30 AM »

Quote from: matthewquigley on August 07, 2009, 02:59:14 PM

i have an 89 bronco2 4x4 2.9 its stock motor but has a 4.0 clutch and late model 5 speed mazda trans and 31x10.50 yokahama geolander mud terrains and i put lockers ( stock type) in front and rear axles has 3.55 gears i am looking for a diesel swappable motor that would have 80+ hp any ideas???

I'd suggest a mechanical 4BT Cummins. You will need to replace your entire drivetrain. Your transmission & rear end will not hold up to long term use, & the axles will have the wrong ratios anyway. You'll need to beef up your suspension too, the 4bt is heavier than your original set up. And a bigger radiator. And driveshafts. It'll be a lot of work. I'd suggest starting with a bigger truck. A small Perkins could be possible, but be warned! I don't believe Perkins ever made 2 engines alike & parts availability is definitely an issue. I work for a Perkins dealer & have learned to loathe them. We need to order far too much from England for me to ever own one of my own.

I have my eye on an 86 F250 Supercab. I can get a 6BTA through work, but I'd have to replace everything too.

pourboy · « **Reply #18 on:** August 22, 2009, 04:35:38 AM »

Quote from: Badnews Bob on August 09, 2009, 11:33:02 AM

http://www.shadetreeconversions.com/index.php

Take a look at this guys stuff.

OMG!! a 4.236 Perkins in a half ton. & a Ford Tractor engine in another. Ford/New Holland & Perkins are the two worst engines I've ever dealt with for parts availability I've ever dealt with. Most Ford/New Holland engines are European made, with heavy usage in Ivecos. Iveco is a division of FIAT, as is Ford/New Holland and (now) Chrysler. I've already ranted about Perkins.

You can get very good engines from Perkins. The real problem is product support after the sale. Perkins is owned by Caterpillar, and their management plan reflects Caterpillars arrogance. BTW you can only but Perkins parts from a Perkins dealer. Cat markets the same engines under Caterpillar designations, but Cat & Perkins do not share information & use different part numbers for each division & there is no known interchange. Cat dealers seem to be totally helpless on Perkins, & vice-versa.

I sell parts for diesel engines for a living, and have done so for the last 20 years, & specialize in heavy duty diesel engines. I am heavily opinionated, mostly due to my experience. For 8 of those years I worked for a Cummins mid-range engine dealer. 5 were spent at a Perkins dealer, 5 at a New Holland dealer & 2 at a Case Industrial dealer. There is quite a bit of overlap with extensive aftermarket experience. I'm only adding this so you might understand that I'm not a keyboard commando. I really do thi for a living.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #19 on:** August 22, 2009, 07:24:40 AM »

Quote from: pourboy on August 22, 2009, 04:35:38 AM

Quote from: Badnews Bob on August 09, 2009, 11:33:02 AM
http://www.shadetreeconversions.com/index.php

Take a look at this guys stuff.

OMG!! a 4.236 Perkins in a half ton. & a Ford Tractor engine in another. Ford/New Holland & Perkins are the two worst engines I've ever dealt with for parts availability I've ever dealt with. Most Ford/New Holland engines are European made, with heavy usage in Ivecos. Iveco is a division of FIAT, as is Ford/New Holland and (now) Chrysler. I've already ranted about Perkins.

You can get very good engines from Perkins. The real problem is product support after the sale. Perkins is owned by Caterpillar, and their management plan reflects Caterpillars arrogance. BTW you can only but Perkins parts from a Perkins dealer. Cat markets the same engines under Caterpillar designations, but Cat & Perkins do not share information & use different part numbers for each division & there is no known interchange. Cat dealers seem to be totally helpless on Perkins, & vice-versa.

I sell parts for diesel engines for a living, and have done so for the last 20 years, & specialize in heavy duty diesel engines. I am heavily opinionated, mostly due to my experience. For 8 of those years I worked for a Cummins mid-range engine dealer. 5 were spent at a Perkins dealer, 5 at a New Holland dealer & 2 at a Case Industrial dealer. There is quite a bit of overlap with extensive aftermarket experience. I'm only adding this so you might understand that I'm not a keyboard commando. I really do thi for a living.

It works.

What other engs are available at the price point of those old perkins, (old salvage yard stuff not late model) And what will bolt up to Ford or Chevy transmissions with out a huge expense?

I am not questioning your judgement, I would like to pick your brain. I want to put a small one in my Toyota and I have adapters for a Chevy type bellhousing, I am also looking to do this in a 1978 Ford full size Bronco. But I can't afford a new cummins type set up, (which can be put in the Ford I know) I need stuff I can adapt cheap from a salvage yard.

If it will maintain highway speeds and get 40 or 50 MPG I want it. If the Toyota wikk only get 60 or 65 MPH at 40 to 50 MPG, I would love it.

pourboy · « **Reply #20 on:** August 22, 2009, 06:50:42 PM »

Your best chance may be a 6BT or 6BTA Cummins from a Case/IH tractor or combine. Flywheel housings are available from Cummins, as are mounts. Cummins used to make an adapter kit to bolt them in the existing frame rails. For smaller trucks, there were a large number of bread trucks built with the 4 cylinder version of this engine. The 4BTAs with the water jacket aftercoolers pumped out up to 116 HP! One thing you must watch for in a salvage engine is whether the donor vehicle has a charge-air aftercooler. These are simply an air to air heat exchanger that bolts in front of the radiator. It's purpose is to cool the intake air charge coming from the turbo to the engines air inlet. If you end up with one of these engines, you must add an aftercooler or your engine will be overfueled. It will run poorly, smoke like hell & eventually melt pistons. This is why I suggest the water jacket aftercoolers for most people. It can be a real pain trying to add an air to air aftercooler to a chassis not designed for it.

For the '79, perhaps you could find a good used 6.9 or early 7.3 donor truck with a good engine. I really wanted to do this with my old 95 Bronco, but it would be easier for the 95 than the 79 because 95 F250 & F350s had 7.3s. A swap with a donor truck would be easy under those circumstances. I'm not real familiar with the79 chassis, but feel it would be a custom installation from top to bottom. You might even need to do a body lift to get transmission clearance. I just don't know. Your stock transmission would be terribly inadequate under the load.

teamnelson · « **Reply #21 on:** August 22, 2009, 07:39:05 PM »

Survival truck = oxymoron ... in the scenario many are imagining. If you think you gotta have it go diesel.

Almtnman · « **Reply #22 on:** August 23, 2009, 02:16:07 AM »

I think maybe an older model diesel that doesn't have the electronic system would be the best bet.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #23 on:** August 23, 2009, 02:31:55 AM »

Quote from: TeamNelson on August 22, 2009, 07:39:05 PM

Survival truck = oxymoron ... in the scenario many are imagining. If you think you gotta have it go diesel.

I really believe the chance of a total melt down are slim, cival war and the crap that will come with that..... Yep.

If you are christian and have read and believe the bible, it dose not mention nuclear war. I gotta have faith in what I believe in. Or else I have nothing.

No I am not blind I just gotta hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #24 on:** August 23, 2009, 02:34:06 AM »

Quote from: Almtnman on August 23, 2009, 02:16:07 AM

I think maybe an older model diesel that doesn't have the electronic system would be the best bet.

Thats what I am looking at.

6.9 or 7.3s are not good options because they require to much supporting electrics. And don't get very good mileage.

WD45 · « **Reply #25 on:** August 23, 2009, 03:44:31 AM »

So other than the older tractor engines. What NON electronic diesels are available that won't cost an arm and a leg and are reliable with good parts availability ?
What ever you get make sure you have a spare injection pump, injectors and glow plugs.
Some engines are known to have injection pump problems so be careful what you go with. And that goes for tractor engines as well as auto engines. There are 2 different types of injection pumps. One type will pump just about anything without trashing out and the other type will not which could come into play if you had to run your engine on something other than diesel. One of the reasons the people running vegetable oil like the older VW and mercedes engines is the type of injection pumps they use.

pourboy · « **Reply #26 on:** August 25, 2009, 02:54:16 PM »

Quote from: Badnews Bob on August 23, 2009, 02:34:06 AM

Quote from: Almtnman on August 23, 2009, 02:16:07 AM
I think maybe an older model diesel that doesn't have the electronic system would be the best bet.

Thats what I am looking at.

6.9 or 7.3s are not good options because they require to much supporting electrics. And don't get very good mileage.

To get the best fuel economy, you'll need electronic engine controls. The 6.9s & 7.3 IDI engines were pretty light on electronics. My personal choice would be a 3.9 Cummins in a smaller truck or a 5.9 in a larger one. They have been making them since the late 80s, so you should be able to find one that suits you. Just remember it's not like dropping a small block Chevy in a street rod. You have to plan it out. As much as I dislike Perkins (an acquired distaste), if you live in an area with a large population of older Massey Ferguson tractors, they might be an option for you. John Deere engines are a bit large for light trucks, I suppose the 329 could be pressed into service, as could the 6059, but there are better choices. The Navistar engines are all physically too large, even the DT360. It's a pity, the DT466s are a great engine. Cats 3208 is way too heavy, The 3204 is prone to bottom end failures, and way too expensive to buy anyway.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #27 on:** August 26, 2009, 11:51:18 AM »

I don't want any electronics. That is one of the reasons for going with an old tractor/combine eng. I have never seen a factory truck get better than maybe 20MPG I am seeing reports of tractor powered trucks getting 40 to 50 MPG and I know of a car that is getting 75+ MPG with a Turbo 1300cc Kabota industrial eng. Also I am not trying to get factory truck performance out of this, 80 or 90 MPH on the highway isn't in the requirements nor is pulling a horse trailer down the highway. Have you heard the term K.I.S.S.? Simple as possible and as close to 50 MPG or better that's my goals. EMP can fry your electronics it won't hurt an ole tractor eng.

A good friend of mine has an old 194? furgesion tractor I've watched him use it for over fifteen years and the only thing I have ever seen done to it was change the oil and clean the injectors once.

pourboy · « **Reply #28 on:** August 26, 2009, 03:29:31 PM »

Then here you go. http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2009082620194901&item=28-1637&catname=engines The Surplus Center has a few V2003T Kubotas, left over from some obscure manufacturer went out of business or something. If anything ever breaks on it, the only warehouse is in Texas, I believe. After that? Japan. This is similar to a Bobcat engine, but you can not buy parts for it from anyone but a Kubota industrial engine dealer. Yeah, I worked for one of them too.

ShadowMover · « **Reply #29 on:** August 27, 2009, 06:52:31 AM »

I have to ask why anybody would get some sort of exotic off the wall vehicle to use in a 'survival' situation? Common sense tells us there will be no repairs, no dealer parts, and no source of used parts. Wouldn't a simple no frills stick shift used small truck, with a shell or cap, or small SUV be much more practical? In a true survival situation something like a bicycle, small off road motorcycle or ATV , with tent, sleeping bags, and backpacking sort of equipment, be much more affordable and practical and low profile?

Let's define what we mean by 'survival', and we will be able to better define how to achieve it.