What if?

[Double D]

What if you got a  cannon ball stick in you bore, how would you get it out?

[thelionspaw]

What size?  How about that cheatin' weld stuff some of you use?  Gob it on a rod and reach down the tube and let it set.

rc

[Cat Whisperer]

That would depend.

Stuck after firing (powder went off, ball wedged).

Stuck after firing (powder did not or may not have gone off).

Stuck going in with live powder under it.

WHAT-IF's are great things to think through BEFORE the event.

[Evil Dog]

I once saw a ball removed from a full size Napoleon.... not sure why it was stuck, but stuck it was.  First they took a LONG drill with a centering collar on it to drill a pilot hole in the zinc ball.  Then they threaded in a large screw that had been welded to a piece of 1/2" diameter threaded rod.  Next was placing a 1" thick steel plate over the muzzle with the threaded rod going through it... put a nut on and started tightening it down.  Took a while but they pulled that ball just as slick as can be.  Bore had been rather liberally oiled first.

[Blaster]

After placing everything on HOLD for the prescribed amount of waiting time plus a few more minutes (I'd wait a LONG time), how about dribbling some powder down the vent and fuse it up, light up and see what happens.  Of course the powder dribbled down the vent would have to be fine enough to reach down into the sub chamber (mortar) and hopefully would not take very much to get the projectile to just move out or perhaps just  drop out of the front of the tube.  Hey, it's only an idea.
Or, totally flood the sub chamber, wait a long time again, get a long screw/threaded device and screw it into the projectile (golf ball or lead ball) and pull the projectile out.

I see Evil Dog just made a good post on this subject while I was typing this.  After all this typing on my part, I'm still going to post it anyhow. .

[KABAR2]

Depending on the material of the tube, the material of the stuck ball, and how far down the tube it is stuck,
I am not a fan of powder being dribbled into the chamber, for one thing if the ball is several inches form the chamber
you could cause the cannon damage, worst case it blows up. mechanical means suggested pulling the ball is better,
but what if someone used a ball bearing? not recommended (since they bounce so well off stuff), but it's been done then what?
One way if the touch hole is threaded replace with threaded bolt which has a air fitting screwed into the center hole,
attach air hose and hit it with 100psi it ought to pop it out like a cork. If that doesn't work fill the chamber/bore with water
and repeat the process with the air, remember the kids toy rockets filled with water and the pump to compress air into them? 

[Double D]

What size?  How about that cheatin' weld stuff some of you use?  Gob it on a rod and reach down the tube and let it set.

rc

Is that how you would do it with your gun?

[Double D]

I once saw a ball removed from a full size Napoleon.... not sure why it was stuck, but stuck it was.  First they took a LONG drill with a centering collar on it to drill a pilot hole in the zinc ball.  Then they threaded in a large screw that had been welded to a piece of 1/2" diameter threaded rod.  Next was placing a 1" thick steel plate over the muzzle with the threaded rod going through it... put a nut on and started tightening it down.  Took a while but they pulled that ball just as slick as can be.  Bore had been rather liberally oiled first.

Would the ball have to be tapped first?  Is thread pitch of the screw important?

Would this work for a cement can, lead ball or golf ball.

Has any body seen any other methods?

How many have these tools made up and ready to go?

[Double D]

Depending on the material of the tube, the material of the stuck ball, and how far down the tube it is stuck,
I am not a fan of powder being dribbled into the chamber, for one thing if the ball is several inches form the chamber
you could cause the cannon damage, worst case it blows up. mechanical means suggested pulling the ball is better,
but what if someone used a ball bearing? not recommended (since they bounce so well off stuff), but it's been done then what?
One way if the touch hole is threaded replace with threaded bolt which has a air fitting screwed into the center hole,
attach air hose and hit it with 100psi it ought to pop it out like a cork. If that doesn't work fill the chamber/bore with water
and repeat the process with the air, remember the kids toy rockets filled with water and the pump to compress air into them? 

Good point on both counts for the steel ball.

Have you tried the air hose method? 

[thelionspaw]

Yes Doug. That is what I said "I" would try. No tools. No drilling. No threading. The welding paste seems to work for our cannon builders.....so why not?

I would use an already threaded rod and then I would thread on a nut so that it wasn't completely screwed on and still had a slight cup to hold more of that stuff in and on it. Then just plunge it on and let it set.

The larger diameter rod = a larger nut = more weld compound.

rc

[Double D]

What is this weld compound...J.B Weld?

[KABAR2]

Depending on the material of the tube, the material of the stuck ball, and how far down the tube it is stuck,
I am not a fan of powder being dribbled into the chamber, for one thing if the ball is several inches form the chamber
you could cause the cannon damage, worst case it blows up. mechanical means suggested pulling the ball is better,
but what if someone used a ball bearing? not recommended (since they bounce so well off stuff), but it's been done then what?
One way if the touch hole is threaded replace with threaded bolt which has a air fitting screwed into the center hole,
attach air hose and hit it with 100psi it ought to pop it out like a cork. If that doesn't work fill the chamber/bore with water
and repeat the process with the air, remember the kids toy rockets filled with water and the pump to compress air into them? 

Good point on both counts for the steel ball.

Have you tried the air hose method? 

I have not had the occasion to use such a contraption but have considered the possibility of this situation, with soft  lead or zinc a hole drilled and a steel wood or lag screw welded to a rod would be the easiest way to go same basic ball puller as used in muzzle loading rifles only on steroids.

 it would be best to follow what the artillerymen of old did and have a shot gauge for each cannon this way if it passes the gauge it will not get stuck in the first place.

My idea of compressed air or compressed air/water just seem to use sound basic hydro pneumatic principles.....
I design pneumatic presses for molding plastic at work, so I guess it would be the first thing to come to mind. 

[thelionspaw]

Yes. JB weld. It's late and I'm not coming up with names. Bad day today.

[Ex 49'er]

Would this work for a cement can, lead ball or golf ball.

Has any body seen any other methods?

How many have these tools made up and ready to go?

With my cement cans I put in a loop of wire or a section of small linked dog chain before the cement sets.
I have tools to hook the loop so the projo can be pulled out of the bore.

[Victor3]

 If the ball were lead, zinc or iron, I'd drill the ball, weld a large diameter tap to the end of a rod, screw it into the ball as far as it would go and attach the rod to some kind of a slide-hammer arrangement.

 Or, you could drill straight through the ball and use some kind of a toggle bolt to pull it.

 If that didn't work, I doubt that much else from the muzzle end would. I'd  drill through the center of the breech and pound it out with a rod, then plug the hole.

 I suppose you might be able to melt out a lead or zinc ball with a long torch (if you could keep it lit).

 If the projectile were a can of cement, I'd use a hammer drill with an extended masonry bit to break it up.

 If all else fails, sell the barrel...

[Cat Whisperer]

...
  If all else fails, sell the barrel...

Obviously a solution that SOME folks have DONE before !

When I was in the Army I was NOT in EOD.  I will do whatever it takes to not have to remove a ball from a loaded cannon.

[KABAR2]

If the ball were lead, zinc or iron, I'd drill the ball, weld a large diameter tap to the end of a rod,   

 

Just curious taps are hardened steel that's why they will break/shatter if forced, how are you going to achieve a good
weld and maintain integrity of the tap? Welding may either make it soft or worse more brittle.

If you want to go that route, weld a tap handle to a rod and use it to hold the tap.

[KABAR2]

...
  If all else fails, sell the barrel...

Obviously a solution that SOME folks have DONE before !

When I was in the Army I was NOT in EOD.  I will do whatever it takes to not have to remove a ball from a loaded cannon.

Corrupt the powder charge with water or oil another good reason for a replaceable touch hole . here's another scenario what if the ball was loaded with no powder?
I have seen people do it with muzzle loaders they forget the powder and ram home a ball then get red faced.

[Double D]

Yes. JB weld. It's late and I'm not coming up with names. Bad day today.

Sorry to hear you had a bad day Richard, but that was yesterday, it the next day now.  How about telling us more about using the weld products.

[Double D]

With my cement cans I put in a loop of wire or a section of small linked dog chain before the cement sets.
I have tools to hook the loop so the projo can be pulled out of the bore.

I like this idea, I am going to make some cans for the shoot, think I'll do this.

[Double D]

I have not had the occasion to use such a contraption but have considered the possibility of this situation, with soft  lead or zinc a hole drilled and a steel wood or lag screw welded to a rod would be the easiest way to go same basic ball puller as used in muzzle loading rifles only on steroids.

 it would be best to follow what the artillerymen of old did and have a shot gauge for each cannon this way if it passes the gauge it will not get stuck in the first place.

My idea of compressed air or compressed air/water just seem to use sound basic hydro pneumatic principles.....
I design pneumatic presses for molding plastic at work, so I guess it would be the first thing to come to mind. 

Lead balls can pass the gage but get distorted when rammed home.

Long lags screw can break.  100 psi of air won't budge the slug. 175 PSI of air won't budge the slug. (good idea by the way) Then what?

[KABAR2]

I have not had the occasion to use such a contraption but have considered the possibility of this situation, with soft  lead or zinc a hole drilled and a steel wood or lag screw welded to a rod would be the easiest way to go same basic ball puller as used in muzzle loading rifles only on steroids.

 it would be best to follow what the artillerymen of old did and have a shot gauge for each cannon this way if it passes the gauge it will not get stuck in the first place.

My idea of compressed air or compressed air/water just seem to use sound basic hydro pneumatic principles.....
I design pneumatic presses for molding plastic at work, so I guess it would be the first thing to come to mind. 

Lead balls can pass the gage but get distorted when rammed home.

Long lags screw can break.  100 psi of air won't budge the slug. 175 PSI of air won't budge the slug. (good idea by the way) Then what?

175 psi  won't budge it? I would add water to the tube and try again. As a last resort I would get the largest drill possible  under bore size
and drill through, what is left could be collapsed in on itself.This would be lead or zinc. if steel or iron depending how deep the ball was in the bore
I might take it to a machine shop with an EDM and let them burn it out of course the powder charge must be corrupted.

One last thought....... zerk fitting on smaller cannon ...... grease gun......... messy but might do the trick.

[Double D]

If the ball were lead, zinc or iron, I'd drill the ball, weld a large diameter tap to the end of a rod, screw it into the ball as far as it would go and attach the rod to some kind of a slide-hammer arrangement.

 Or, you could drill straight through the ball and use some kind of a toggle bolt to pull it.

 If that didn't work, I doubt that much else from the muzzle end would. I'd  drill through the center of the breech and pound it out with a rod, then plug the hole.

 I suppose you might be able to melt out a lead or zinc ball with a long torch (if you could keep it lit).

 If the projectile were a can of cement, I'd use a hammer drill with an extended masonry bit to break it up.

 If all else fails, sell the barrel...

I though about a masonary anchor affair that went through the drilled hole and then was expand on the farside them pulled.  Not sure it would work.

[thelionspaw]

Doug: If I knew how to use this computer and highlite as others do, my post would look neater. As it is, you instructed me in the absolute basics and if it ain't broke, yuh don't fix it. So this is in answer to your your last reply directed to me. i.e. how do I use JB.

First, I am suspicious   I said to myself, Why would the Great Oz, who is all knowing, propose an abstract thread?

If there was a present situation concerning a projectile lodged in a tube, he would have been more verbose   This appeared to be a trick question   So! Never having been a coward, I kicked down the door and was the first in

I also said to myself; the man is methodical and his wheels are always turning but the ingredients are missing, e.g. barrel length, bore size, projectile weight and composition, why is it stuck and is there a charge present??? .

Is this a trick question from a man from a man who would already know what to do but is curious (as he always is) and is testing our water, to fathom what "we" would do?

I offered what I believe to be the universal solution considering the unknown factors.

Drilling.....taping......etc. are out, taking into consideration the missing facts and possible lack of experience, tools, etc..  How long will a drill bit and tap have to reach into the unknown and also be dead center? 

That's too much work for me.

I would use a JB STICK which is a premixed adhesive epoxy resin that is a cold welding compound. it sets in a matter of minutes, cures within hours and can be safely worked after 24 hours.  It's the sliced bread of adhesives (oops! Wrong analogy for many present) or should I say, the canned beer

Assuming that the projectile is round, I suggest fashioning a cup-like protrusion on the end of a rod, so that the convex and concave will allow a closer fit.  Just an idea. A fat as possible nut, partially threaded on a fat as possible stock pre-threaded rod, will offer the maximum of adhesive contact without any additional mechanical labour.

After all is in place, I would up-end the muzzle if possible and apply a super slick oil solution that penetrates as no common oil will. 

Years ago, I had a need and a seat-of-the-pants basic hillbilly mechanic, gave me a bottle of some rosey-pink lubricant that he said, was, "slicker'n snot on a lip".  I treasure what's left; what ever it is.

Tip the barrel to eliminate the weight of the progectile coming in contact with the barrel as much as possible and exercise free-fall and gravity to your advantage thereby taking pressure off your "weld" as much as possible oh great Oz.

That's what I would do.  Now I'll have to wait to see what you have up your sleeve.  Why do I feel that I have been suckered-in

Richard the Suspicious


 

[Ex 49'er]

With my cement cans I put in a loop of wire or a section of small linked dog chain before the cement sets.
I have tools to hook the loop so the projo can be pulled out of the bore.

I like this idea, I am going to make some cans for the shoot, think I'll do this.

The other advantage of the loop is if you don't fill the can all the way to the top of the can; you can tie a plastic
streamer onto it and it will flop about on the way down. Mortars are great for spectators and streamers make it easier
to follow the flight of the can and also help you identify your projo.

[Blaster]

Each time I fill a beverage can with concrete, to be used as a projectile, I always place a wire loop in the wet concrete so I can attach an orange plastic streamer.  Not only easier to watch the projectile while airborne but makes it much easier to retrieve the projectile in the impact area.  And yeah, that wire loop would make it much more practical to pull it out of the bore with a hooked tool in the unlikely event of a misfire where the projectile would HAVE to be pulled out.

[Evil Dog]

When I was in the Army I was NOT in EOD.  I will do whatever it takes to not have to remove a ball from a loaded cannon.

I was in EOD for around 5 years and will have to agree with you... best NOT to have to remove a ball from a loaded cannon in the first place.

I bore gauge every round for my half scale Napoleon... if it doesn't freely slide down the gauge it will never see the inside of my barrel.  This is after the appropriate sabot has been attached.

[Double D]

Richard the Suspicious

You are good.

You should have signed this Richard the Sleuth or better yet Richard the Rat Smeller.

Yep I stuck a slug over a powder charge.

You may remember last week I discovered my vent is 3/4 inch up from bottom of the bore.  This has never been a problem in the past because I was using the old formula for developing loads, 1 oz per inch.  Now using Switlik’s chart the maximum suggested load is 185 grains.  A 400 grain cartridge goes well past the vent hole and there is no problem pricking this charge.   A 185 grain just barely reaches the vent.

The Mistake.
Friday I was experimenting with base wads to extend the length of cartridge. The first cartridge I tested was with 2 wads cut from a cardboard box under 125 grains of Fg.   I had a lead slug that was gaged and ran in the gage. Later this slug got a dent in the nose. I used a hammer on the nose to beat the dent out and stuck it in the muzzle of the cannon and it was loose.  I did not run it in the gage.  I pushed the slug in and after it was full length in the bore it got tight, but I could still move it. I kept pushing.  The deeper I pushed the harder it got until I had to get the hammer out.  Seated the slug alright, it also pushed the cartridge deeper into the bore.  When I prick the charge, I felt the vent prick go through the foil and in, I thought the charge.  The vent was charge with a quill and fired.  Nothing happened.

After the misfire I let the gun sit for a bit. Then I re pricked the charge and that is when I knew I was in trouble.  The vent prick went freely into the hole.  A looked in the vent with a flashlight and could see the bottom of the slug and a hole through the twisted neck of aluminum foil.

I trickled some FFFFG down the vent and fired that. Nothing, it just flamed out the vent like a roman candle.

I think at this point if I had applied an air hose the slug might have popped out. Or I could have extracted the slug using Richard’s JB Weld.  What I did do, in retrospect just stuck the slug tighter.

What I did was to weld a ¼ lag bolt on a long T-handle and run it down the bore and screw it in.  Just as the screw tightened up it also broke off. Now I tried the air hose. 100PSI, nothing. Over to the other compressor; 175 PSI, nothing.  What I did when I screwed the lag screw into the lead without a pilot hole was expanded the lead slug tighter into the bore.

Time to put a grease zerk in and push it with grease.  The zerk tap would not even scratch the 4140 HT steel of the barrel.

Next I got my deep hole drills out and drilled a hole through the slug.  I made a flat spade drill and ran that through the hole in the slug and ripped open the cartridge.  I taped a length of cannon fuse to a small dowel and ran that down the bore and through the hole into the charge.  I lit the fuse and it set the charge off which blew through the hole in the slug like a roman candle. 

I ran the garden hose down the bore and flushed everything out.  Interesting enough, when I did this water did not come out the vent, the foil apparently served as a seal between charge and vent.

With the charge neutralized I place the breech of the barrel on the burner of my lead melting set up and turn on the fire.  About the same time as the lead ran out of the bore the paint blistered on the gun.

While the cannon was cooling I came in and wrote the opening post.

Here is the “Don’ts”

Be careful with soft lead slugs. If they are damaged re gage them.  When seating a slug, as soon as you detect something wrong, STOP. When the slug was still near the muzzle it would have been very simple to put the air hose on this slug and pop it out. Or use Richards JB Weld.

Drill a pilot hole for your lag screw.  I would say also don’t use to small a screw.  I am going to build up some tools and for my 1 inch bore I am going to use ½ lag screw.  For pulling Zinc balls I will need a tap and I will have to look at how to attach a tap holder.

Do you have these tools now or will you build them when you need them?  Build them now!

I also had the standard tools for pulling balls from muzzle loading rifles and they were just not big enough for this job.

[thelionspaw]

Well it reads to me as though The Great Oz had placed the cart before the horse and had a six pack before the problem and not after the problem

Richard The Tea Totaler

[KABAR2]

DD,  Sir Richard was brave enough to say what others suspected....... it almost sounds like you could have drilled a new touch hole further back and solved the problem,

tricked powder down the original touch hole and then fired it with the new one, after the issue was solved then the original touch hole could have been plugged.

I am happy to hear you solved the problem.