Author Topic: Hairbrained idea - step down dies (Read 833 times)

stimpylu32 · « **on:** July 12, 2009, 02:20:00 AM »

I was thinking that if I took some old sizing dies and cut them down , I could use them as step down neck dies . Have any of you guys ever done this ? and if so , how did it work ?

Need in-put

stimpy

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 12, 2009, 02:38:59 AM »

I have not done that - but I would think it would work OK as long as the original base - shoulder was longer and you cut (machined) it just the right length so you would not push the shoulder back too far on each of your steps. It would work especially well if you could make each step just a little short of pushing the shoulder back on each step. You might even get clever and figure exactly how much to machine off by the dimensions of the original case to where you wanted to go. Make each step progressively push the shoulder back by .005" or so. If you just cut them off - short; you would have to carefully set your lock ring so that when fully tightened down each time, you would get a consistent shoulder length. You would do it by trial and error until you have them set just right when the ram is all the way up. Good Luck and Good Shooting

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 12, 2009, 02:51:35 AM »

Got the idea the other night when I was playing with some 30/30 cases , ran one up into a 243 die just to see if it would neck down without folding the neck in . It worked just fine but the 243 was too tall to do the whole neck , so I ended up with a case with a double shoulder .

That got me to thinking ( scary I know ) but if I took the die and trimmed about 3/4" off the bottom and re-bevled the inlet , then I could ajust it down to were the neck / shoulder junction was , or even use them to move the shoulder back if needed .

Thought maybe a 243 , 25/06 and 308 , as they have fairly large case bodies , that would allow them to be used for a bunch of diffrent cases .

stimpy

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 12, 2009, 03:06:50 AM »

I think you are on the right track. Just figuring out how much to trim would be the tricky part. Oh and getting dies cheap that you could cut down

edit - almost forgot - it would be helpful if the shoulder angle was the same

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 12, 2009, 03:17:15 AM »

What got this whole process going was looking at the almost $250 that I spent for my 219 Wasp dies , most of that was for form dies . And even with that , they still need FL sized and Fireformed , so even if the shoulder angle is not perfict it may work .

I may pick up a set of the Lee RGB dies just to try , they can be had for around $20 and I already have an extra 22/250 sizer that is missing the expander ball stem .

stimpy

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 12, 2009, 04:04:11 AM »

I thought you had already got your Donaldson dies. I was wondering what you wanted the step down dies for. I see no reason that your idea will not work and the Lee dies are about as cheap as you can get. I just looked and 243 Lee RGB dies at Midway are under $15.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 12, 2009, 04:41:58 AM »

Yep , got the Redding Wasp die set , thats what got this whole thing started , the What If's for the next crazy idea that passes though my brain bucket !

stimpy

Catfish · « **Reply #7 on:** July 12, 2009, 12:37:49 PM »

Another, more expencive way to go, would be to get Redding bushing dies I use a 6mm die with a bushing for .22 cal. for my .22-6mm.

skb2706 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 13, 2009, 03:52:44 AM »

Quote from: stimpylu32 on July 12, 2009, 02:51:35 AM

Got the idea the other night when I was playing with some 30/30 cases , ran one up into a 243 die just to see if it would neck down without folding the neck in . It worked just fine but the 243 was too tall to do the whole neck , so I ended up with a case with a double shoulder .

That got me to thinking ( scary I know ) but if I took the die and trimmed about 3/4" off the bottom and re-bevled the inlet , then I could ajust it down to were the neck / shoulder junction was , or even use them to move the shoulder back if needed .

Thought maybe a 243 , 25/06 and 308 , as they have fairly large case bodies , that would allow them to be used for a bunch of diffrent cases .

stimpy

I actually made up a a set of step down dies doing exactly as you suggest. I bought a Contender barrel in 6mm 30-30 AI and had no interest in waiting for custom dies to be made up. Obviously the base brass is unfired 30-30 and the steep should angle and reduced neck require some work. By making minor simple mods to some cheap dies I had acquired I came up with a excellent set of step down form dies and size/deat dies as well. A quick study of case dimensions and a well setup machine shop I can pretty much modify what I need.

wncchester · « **Reply #9 on:** July 13, 2009, 12:36:08 PM »

Not hare-braned at all. I have made my own forming dies for turning bulk 30-06/35 Whelen brass into custom fitted .243, .22-250 and 6MM International. Used garage sale/ebay FL sizers that I drilled out the necks in descending sizes until the the cases could easily be run into a normal FL die. Learned that they shouldn't be stepped down more than .020" per step, .015" is better. The modified forming die sets work fine, and are quite cheap compared to any such RCBS sets.

Anneal any such massively reformed necks and turn as necessary.

mjbgalt · « **Reply #10 on:** July 13, 2009, 03:22:38 PM »

what about ONE die body and multiple inserts for it....no adjustment needed that way and you could buy the inserts cheaper than a new die set...?

you could load a lot of neck-sized stuff with it?

-Matt

Drilling Man · « **Reply #11 on:** July 13, 2009, 03:33:49 PM »

Quote from: stimpylu32 on July 12, 2009, 02:20:00 AM

I was thinking that if I took some old sizing dies and cut them down , I could use them as step down neck dies . Have any of you guys ever done this ? and if so , how did it work ?

Need in-put

stimpy

I think anyone who has ever "wildcatted" cartridges, has made a few cases this way... I know when "i" was heavy into wildcatting, i used many different loading dies to make the cases i wanted. "If" the idea worked out, i then had a set of "proper" dies made...

DM

wncchester · « **Reply #12 on:** July 16, 2009, 12:23:12 PM »

"what about ONE die body and multiple inserts for it....no adjustment needed that way and you could buy the inserts cheaper than a new die set...?

Your basic idea is sound. Now, if we can get a maker interested in making a "form die set" that way.

"you could load a lot of neck-sized stuff with it?"

That's also a sound idea. And it was actually done long ago. It didn't survive the death of the old Herters company (in the early 70s, IIRC) but Herter's did market a neat "universal neck die" that allowed the use of interchangable neck sizing inserts. I have often wished the supplying company had kept up the production of that and some others of Herter's unique tools/dies but, alas...NO.

Lyman once had a series of PA, "Precision Alignment", seaters that used interchangeable inserts for different calibers (basically the same design as today's Hornady seaters). Lyman didn't sell it that way so users had to purchase one for each caliber OR make the inserts themselves, but it did/does work for a semi- "universal" type seater. With only three bodies, one each for .17 Rem to .223, .22-250 to .35 Whelen, and one for belted magumums or other bodies of that size, I can make inserts to load for most anything. But, I don't make inserts for neck sizing/reforming, that's kinda out of the reach of me and my home shop!.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 18, 2009, 02:51:47 PM »

Quote from: wncchester on July 16, 2009, 12:23:12 PM

"what about ONE die body and multiple inserts for it....no adjustment needed that way and you could buy the inserts cheaper than a new die set...?

Your basic idea is sound. Now, if we can get a maker interested in making a "form die set" that way.

"you could load a lot of neck-sized stuff with it?"

That's also a sound idea. And it was actually done long ago. It didn't survive the death of the old Herters company (in the early 70s, IIRC) but Herter's did market a neat "universal neck die" that allowed the use of interchangable neck sizing inserts. I have often wished the supplying company had kept up the production of that and some others of Herter's unique tools/dies but, alas...NO.

Lyman once had a series of PA, "Precision Alignment", seaters that used interchangeable inserts for different calibers (basically the same design as today's Hornady seaters). Lyman didn't sell it that way so users had to purchase one for each caliber OR make the inserts themselves, but it did/does work for a semi- "universal" type seater. With only three bodies, one each for .17 Rem to .223, .22-250 to .35 Whelen, and one for belted magumums or other bodies of that size, I can make inserts to load for most anything. But, I don't make inserts for neck sizing/reforming, that's kinda out of the reach of me and my home shop!.

wncchester

Here you go , Ron Reed of Reeds Ammo showed me these good folks some time ago , with this set of dies you should be able to make just about anything , I'm still trying to talk my CFO into letting me buy a set .

http://www.shadetreeea.com/caseDieSet.html

stimpy

jedman · « **Reply #14 on:** July 21, 2009, 02:33:22 PM »

Stimpy, I just read this post for the first time today, must have missed it somehow earlier? I do just what you mentioned about cutting down dies to make form dies. For your 219 Wasp I think you could start with a 6.8 Rem. die followed by a cut down 243 Win then finish with the Wasp. I posted on this once before that I have bought just the sizeing die bodies without the expander and deprime pin from Lee and Hornady. It's been a couple years ago but you could buy them from Lee for under $ 10.00 each. Jed

mjbgalt · « **Reply #15 on:** July 21, 2009, 02:48:03 PM »

figures someone thought of it before me. i also thought of the ar-15 upper being a crossbow too. someone is a millionaire because i didnt make a few phone calls to a lawyer lol.

duh.

-Matt

mechanic · « **Reply #16 on:** July 21, 2009, 02:53:23 PM »

Stimpy,

I'm sure your idea would work just fine. My Dad did something similar many years ago making special brass for his Thompsons. Just the other day I took out what I thought were normal 357 dies and ran a case in. It came out necked down to something, I'm not sure what. In the same box was a sizing die that read 30M1.

?

MnMike · « **Reply #17 on:** July 21, 2009, 05:20:06 PM »

I use a 7MM neck size die and a piece of dowel (to get the short cartridge up to the sizer) to make the final crimp on my Nagent revolver rounds. Simpler than it sounds.

mike

dakotashooter2 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 24, 2009, 10:25:33 AM »

I have used my 243 seating die to step down 308 brass then finished with the FL 243 die. The seating die is just a hair bigger than the FL and reduce the neck and a false shoulder. Running them through the FL next finishes pushing the shoulder back and irons things out nicely. The only hitch is that the seating die crimps the neck. A tapered sizer button or reaming the crimp out would solve that problem.

wncchester · « **Reply #19 on:** July 25, 2009, 12:30:44 PM »

"http://www.shadetreeea.com/caseDieSet.html"

Yeah, looks like they are doing basically what I've been doing.

I'm sure their work is slicker than mine, but, at $175, I think I will continue turning out the neck "bushings" on my old lathe when the mood hits me. I have about 10 of them now, need a few more intermediate steps. I started with steps of 18-20 thou but it seems steps in the range of 10 thou work much better. Larger steps tend to collapse the unsupported case bodies.