Author Topic: Reloading myths, facts, and BS  (Read 3490 times)

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Offline Travis Morgan

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Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« on: July 14, 2009, 05:54:37 AM »
We've all heard facts, myths and BS. Let's hash it out here.

*You CAN deprime live primers. I've never had one go off. (fact)
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2009, 07:20:46 AM »
I have never had one go off priming or depriming - but that does not mean it could not happen. A sharp blow would definitely make one go off. I use considerable caution and press them in or out slowly and methodically, it is no time to be in a hurry. With that said, I would feel real bad if someone followed my example and had an accident - so I do not recommend it. A safer way is to put them into your gun and fire them out doors in a safe direction. I do not reuse any primers I have pushed out anyway - most of the time they are deformed getting a bulge at the center of the primer. Wear eye and ear protection at all times. I hope I did not squash any discussion - I like discussions ;D
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Offline Travis Morgan

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2009, 07:38:03 AM »
    You can smash 'em in a vise or with pliers. It takes an impact to set them off.

    That said, I still aim them away from myself when hand priming.
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Offline john keyes

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2009, 10:31:59 AM »
For Hunting ammo, seat the bullet   deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep into the case, at least to the cannelure for reliable functioning during that critical once in a lifetime moment when its all on the line

and never touch a primer with your bare hands, the oil on  your fingers will instantly render it non functional

also lube dents are the scourge of reloading. don't dare let anyone see them or you will be drummed out of the shooting sports society
Though taken from established manufacturers' sources and presumed to be safe please do not use any load that I have posted. Please reference Hogdon, Lyman, Speer and others as a source of data for your own use.

Offline skb2706

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2009, 10:38:25 AM »
You could also add these-

you can kill primers with skin oil from your fingers - independent tests show this to not be the case and in fact they are very difficult to kill even after soaking in various products for extended periods of time

short necked cases have bullet alignment issues - some gun writer somewhere came up with that trash which is impossible to prove making it DA

tumbling live ammo is dangerous - no one can prove this. The millions of rounds of military ammo used in air support, ground support and hauled over any kind of terrain for months at a time should despel any hint of a problem. Consider the ammo stored in a fighter jet wing..........

But deprime live primers - no problem, push them out slow with decapper pin. Done correctly they are even usable.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2009, 10:44:44 AM »
Here's another one: reloading is cheaper ... for what they want for powder and primers these days, if you can find it, I'm not sure.  ;D
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Offline Lone Star

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2009, 07:38:42 PM »
More general statements:

- Neck sized cases are more accurate than FL sized cases
- Long case necks are more accurate
- Neck turning improves accuracy
- Straight cases are faster to reload than bottlenecked cases because you can use a carbide die with the former
- Premium bullets are needed for high-velocity cartridges






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Offline Grumulkin

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2009, 12:13:36 AM »
My favorites:

1.  Be sure to clean the ash out of primer pockets.
2.  Great benefits to accuracy, hair loss prevention, libido, etc. accrue to those who trim and resize new brass.
3.  With a chronograph, all you do is put in enough powder in the cartridge case to achieve the same velocity published in a manual and not only will you be safe but you will have the maximum performance from the cartridge.

Offline skb2706

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2009, 04:01:43 AM »
Grum - I'm all over #2...LOL   if theres a chance that any of thats true I've got brass at home that I hadn't planned on doing anything with right away. After reading number 2 I am heading home now to start working on it.

Non- myth

The companies that have build their foundation on the reloading/handloading business better get off the stick and make sure that the narrow window of us that purchase from them have the components we need...ie primers/powder etc. If they do not, they will fail in a flurry. We won't need their bullets, their brass, their parts, their scopes, their anscillary equipment if, with all that, we still can't make or buy ammo. Wake up Midway, MidSouth, Grafs, CCI, Hornady, Sierra, Federal, Winchester, Remington.......!!!!!!!!!

The companies that are diligently trying to sell us guns better wake up too. Anyone who has ventured thru the nearby outdoor store and noticed they may sell guns but they have no clue when or if they will ever have ammo for those guns, take notice. Like having a new car with no tires.




Offline Travis Morgan

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2009, 07:04:06 AM »
and never touch a primer with your bare hands, the oil on  your fingers will instantly render it non functional

    I've gotta call BS on that. I've handled them plenty, and even used ones that have been thoroughly abused, dropped on the floor, kicked around in the dirt, etc.. For the most part, they work about the same as fresh out of the box.
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Offline Travis Morgan

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2009, 07:12:10 AM »
Here's another one: reloading is cheaper ... for what they want for powder and primers these days, if you can find it, I'm not sure.  ;D

$25/100 bullets(times 5 for easier math)
$30/pound of powder times four (makes 550-600+ loaded rifle rounds)
$25/500 primers(again, for easier math; they're cheaper by the thousand)

Total: $140/500 rounds. ONE box of brand name ammo: $40/20 rounds. Cheap ammo is still around a buck a shot, except for .30-30, which is still about $13 here.
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Offline Travis Morgan

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2009, 07:13:43 AM »
tumbling live ammo is dangerous - no one can prove this. The millions of rounds of military ammo used in air support, ground support and hauled over any kind of terrain for months at a time should despel any hint of a problem. Consider the ammo stored in a fighter jet wing..........

I've tumbled plenty of live ammo, both rim and centerfire, with no problems.
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Offline wncchester

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2009, 07:43:20 AM »
Myth:  Seating rifle bullets at the lands gives best accuracy.

Myth:  Neck sizing for rifles gives best accuracy.

Myth:  Trimming all cases precisely square and to the same length gives best accuracy.

Myth:  Weighing powder charges (or cases) to .1 gr. gives best accuracy

Myth:  Tumbled/polished cases makes more accurate ammunition.

Myth:  Seating dies with micrometer heads give more accuracy than those that don't.

Myth:  Brand "X" dies are made to "tighter tolerances" than other brands.

Myth:  "Free floating" barrels enough to slip a dollar bill down the barrel channel gives best accuracy.

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Offline Travis Morgan

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2009, 07:51:03 AM »
Those are all proven facts.
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Offline skb2706

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2009, 08:03:13 AM »
tumbling live ammo is dangerous - no one can prove this. The millions of rounds of military ammo used in air support, ground support and hauled over any kind of terrain for months at a time should despel any hint of a problem. Consider the ammo stored in a fighter jet wing..........

I've tumbled plenty of live ammo, both rim and centerfire, with no problems.

You asked for myths, I gave you myths.

Offline R.W.Dale

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2009, 08:28:46 AM »
Myth:  Seating rifle bullets at the lands gives best accuracy.I agree this is a MYTH,  it just depends on the bullet and rifle

Myth:  Neck sizing for rifles gives best accuracy. I agree MYTH as well Try neck sizing for anything other than a bolt action and see where your accuracy goes, if you  don't get misfires out the wazoo

Myth:  Trimming all cases precisely square and to the same length gives best accuracy.I disagree on this one

Myth:  Weighing powder charges (or cases) to .1 gr. gives best accuracyWeighing rifle charges is a complete total waste of time and energy. Ask benchrest shooters if they throw or weigh charges, I stopped weighing charges a few years ago and my groups have never been better

Myth:  Tumbled/polished cases makes more accurate ammunition.they certianlly make prettier ammunition

Myth:  Seating dies with micrometer heads give more accuracy than those that don't. use a bullet comparator, dies are dies. The micrometer just makes settings more repeatable

Myth:  Brand "X" dies are made to "tighter tolerances" than other brands.

Myth:  "Free floating" barrels enough to slip a dollar bill down the barrel channel gives best accuracy.not so much a myth but a hugely wrong rule of thumb, MOST rifles will shoot better free floated, many will not shoot worth beans free floated. Every rifle is it's own individual



My personal favorite handloading myths are

Short barrels in rifles require a faster powder to get top performance

and it's variation that the fireball from a carbine is wasted powder

Offline Travis Morgan

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2009, 08:48:09 AM »
I meant for people to post the myth in question was, then label it as fact or BS
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Offline R.W.Dale

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2009, 09:04:47 AM »
I meant for people to post the myth in question was, then label it as fact or BS

 You stated that all wncchester's points aren't myths but are facts. And I'm diesgreeing with your assesment of his post on most points and adding more explaining why they are indeed myths as he says

Offline skb2706

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2009, 09:51:28 AM »
Myth:  Seating rifle bullets at the lands gives best accuracy.

Myth:  Neck sizing for rifles gives best accuracy.

Myth:  Trimming all cases precisely square and to the same length gives best accuracy.

Myth:  Weighing powder charges (or cases) to .1 gr. gives best accuracy

Myth:  Tumbled/polished cases makes more accurate ammunition.

Myth:  Seating dies with micrometer heads give more accuracy than those that don't.

Myth:  Brand "X" dies are made to "tighter tolerances" than other brands.

Myth:  "Free floating" barrels enough to slip a dollar bill down the barrel channel gives best accuracy.



We would have  to agree to disagree. While I cannot provide proof, I can say to 'my satifaction' I believe that 'close to the lands, neck sizing, case consistency, carefully weighed, higher tolerance dies and free floated barrels contribute to better accuracy. The rest is BS...polished cases don't help and micrometer heads haven't proven anything to me...yet.

Offline Travis Morgan

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2009, 11:03:20 AM »
They seem to have proven themselves to legions of benchrest shooters who'd rather shoot than spend days on making sure their components are just right.
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2009, 12:50:57 PM »
Micrometer heads on bullet seating dies do not lead to better accuracy - I have to agree. They do however usually incorporate a sliding sleeve that does contribute to higher accuracy (less run out) generally. Hornady uses this type of seater in their dies and I think they are just as accurate one with a micrometer head. Micrometer heads also make it very easy to go from one bullet to the next with out guessing were to seat the bullet. Once you have measured where you want the bullet to be, just jot the reading on a piece of paper and include it with the dies, then when you go back to that bullet all you have to do is dial it in and start using it. If you are only going to be using 1 bullet and never using anything else, get the Hornady seating dies and do not waste your money in a micrometer head.

The benchrest shooters I know go through all kinds of pains to make sure their loads are exactly the same from one to the next. They even go so far as to cull out any cases that throw a wild shot once in a while. This is after they weigh the cases, trim them, uniform the primer pockets, deburr in side the flash hole and the the necks, some times turn the necks, weigh bullets and God knows what else. They measure bullet run out and redo if it is over .001". All this for a few shots at the bench. Does it make a 2" moa gun into a .1" gun - nope. we are talking a couple tens of an inch - tops. But they will do most any thing to get the most accuracy they can. If your gun is only capable of 1" MOA doing all this stuff is pretty much a waste of time - I can agree on that, but when you are trying to squeeze out the last .050" off your group size - it counts.

Some of the other stuff - Well it is personal preference. I happen to like reloading so cleaning primer pockets just makes me feel better, not that it will make it shoot better. No one will know if you clean your pockets, but I do. I seen it likened to srubbing the underside of a sink. A pretty good a comaprision. No one will know you did it, but you will know. That is just one example. In general I do not feel the need to full length size new cases because it only work hardens the case once more and streches it unneccesarily, but there are many that do - personal preference.

Every rifle is different, some like the barrel free floated, some do not. Some like the bullet to snuggle right up to the lands and some do not.

I could go on and on, but when you say never or always, you open yourself up to be wrong.

Good Luck to everyone and definetly Good Shooting
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Offline charles p

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2009, 03:04:08 PM »
Max loads with highest velocities are best.  Over max is even a bit better.

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2009, 05:30:02 PM »
"Max loads with highest velocities are best.  Over max is even a bit better" - charles p

Good One - I think that would be in the BS category. ;)

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Offline Lone Star

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2009, 09:49:41 PM »
Quote
I meant for people to post the myth in question was, then label it as fact or BS

Sorry, how's this?

All are BS as general statements:

- Neck sized cases are more accurate than FL sized cases
- Long case necks are more accurate
- Neck turning improves accuracy
- Straight cases are faster to reload than bottlenecked cases because you can use a carbide die with the former
- Premium hunting bullets are needed for all high-velocity cartridges





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Offline Dand

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2009, 09:57:06 PM »
I began polishing my cases to protect and prolong the life of my size dies. One sizer started scratching my cases and it may have been due to some crud on a case that wasn't cleaned.  Now I tumble nearly all cases before sizing and reloading. They slide thru the dies much more nicely now and I can spot flaws more easily.

I clean my primer pockets because in the past I felt like I wasn't getting primers seated well with crud build up.
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2009, 01:38:02 AM »
Alot of these things your calling myths are in fact true. You have to keep in mind that someone like a bench rest shooter is looking for any edge to get accuracy and a differnce of groups measured in the thousands of an inch mean something to them where to you and me for the most part work in 1/4 of an inch differnces. If im loading for a lever gun and its a hunting load i have a much different method of loading then i would if i was loading ammo for a competive bench rest shoot.
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Offline Travis Morgan

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2009, 04:46:13 AM »
"Max loads with highest velocities are best.  Over max is even a bit better" - charles p

Good One - I think that would be in the BS category. ;)




ore of a generality; it depends on the gun and the application.
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Offline wncchester

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2009, 05:15:22 AM »
"While I cannot provide proof, I can say to 'my satifaction' I believe that 'close to the lands, neck sizing, case consistency, carefully weighed, higher tolerance dies and free floated barrels contribute to better accuracy."

All of those things I listed can help, sometimes.  It's the clear lack of "proof", or consistancy, that makes them myths, as I stated, "for best accuracy."  

All of those points are often spouted as facts but they are NOT "facts"; they are no more than potentially helpful options that must be tested to confirm or discard on a case-by-case basis.   Isolated findings by individuals are not facts for anyone but themselves.   Repeating an occasional success story as fact without consistancy makes it a myth. I don't care what anyone says, or how out-landish it is on it's face, almost anything WILL work in an occasional instance or even in a large percentage of cases, but that doesn't make it a fact.  The successful shooter may speak in authorative tones that something's true (for him) but, as a flat statement, saying anything WILL aid accuracy is NOT justified unless it is true in a large majority of instances.

So, it's certainly valid to say this or that may help, but saying it will help is a whole 'nother thing.  Neck sizing helps ... sometimes.  Floated barrels help ... sometimes.  Seating in the lands help ... sometimes.  But individual conditions change things.  

Weighing charges may help... but only IF the load is on the ragged edge of what will produce top accuracy.  And that optimum charge IS a range, not a single specific point, plus or minus nothing.    Etc.  

I do a lot of trivial "precision reloading" stuff because I enjoy doing it and I feel good about dong it but I know much of it has little or nothing to do with fine accuracy and I don't propose it as true for others.  No matter what I THINK, or what has actually worked for ME, if it isn't provable and repeatable for others then it's only a potentially helpful option, not a rule anyone else can depend on.  A myth.

I will take time to address two specific points from the above disagreements.

I defy anyone to "prove" the statements about "tighter die tolerances" (whatever that means, anyway) can be found in any brand of dies.  Dies are machine made and they have a SAAMI tolerance ranges, max diameter/length, vs. minimum and all our makers seem to stick to them.  Anything falling within that range is fully "in tolerace".  

So, I must ask my friendly dissenters, "On what side does a "tight tolerance" die go towards?"  Is it the Max (largest die chamber, cut with a new reamer)?  Or Min (smallest die chamber, cut with a worn and reshapened reamer)?  And, if it's assumed to be the smaller side of the tolerance range, how does that help with a rifle chamber that is cut on the larger side of a simular range of tolerances?   (Everyone should know there is no overlap between die chambers and firearms chambers. By SAAMI design, the largest die chamber is smaller than the tightest gun chamber.)   So, consider those questions and you will soon understand that the claim of "tight die tolerances" without including the firearm's chamber/fit, actually means nothing!  Meaning, the value of "tight tolerance dies", as such, is a myth.

Now, Hornady's sliding bullet seating chamber does ONE thing well; It makes sitting a bullet on top of a case easier.  The loosely fitted floating sleeve does nothing to align the whole case (as Forster and Redding's full chamber, spring loaded, sleeves do).  The  floating sleeve's inner fit to the bullet itself tends to be oversize - sloppy - as is its free-sliding fit within the die body.  Without some way to center the lower portion of a case, the limiting factor of the seating die's total alignment system becomes the press's elevated ram/shell holder, and that ain't precise! Therefore, good bullet alignment with that die is as much pure chance as any other conventional seating die.  

Basically, Hornady's floating bullet sleeve design is no more than a slightly modified copy of a method that goes back to at least the early 60s.  It was tried back then by several other companies, including Lyman, Vickerman and Herters, but got dropped because it added cost without any average gain in cartridge concentricity.  Still doesn't.  So, Hornady's sleeve seater is good but being "better", on average, is a myth.  And that's provable.

Some myths seem so clearly true and are so deeply engrained in our minds that they seem to have a life of their own!
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Offline beerbelly

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2009, 07:29:58 AM »
Travis Morgan I don't know what you are loading but my loads of 45 Gr of powder is suppost to get 155 rounds per pound of powder. I probley get 150.
 I also have to pay a lot more for bullets, and primers than you say you do. Also you did not mention the cost of brass.
  Yes it is still cheaper than buying over the counter, but not all that much.
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Offline skb2706

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Re: Reloading myths, facts, and BS
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2009, 07:44:39 AM »
"While I cannot provide proof, I can say to 'my satifaction' I believe that 'close to the lands, neck sizing, case consistency, carefully weighed, higher tolerance dies and free floated barrels contribute to better accuracy."

All of those things I listed can help, sometimes.  It's the clear lack of "proof", or consistancy, that makes them myths, as I stated, "for best accuracy."  

All of those points are often spouted as facts but they are NOT "facts"; they are no more than potentially helpful options that must be tested to confirm or discard on a case-by-case basis.   Isolated findings by individuals are not facts for anyone but themselves.   Repeating an occasional success story as fact without consistancy makes it a myth. I don't care what anyone says, or how out-landish it is on it's face, almost anything WILL work in an occasional instance or even in a large percentage of cases, but that doesn't make it a fact.  The successful shooter may speak in authorative tones that something's true (for him) but, as a flat statement, saying anything WILL aid accuracy is NOT justified unless it is true in a large majority of instances.

So, it's certainly valid to say this or that may help, but saying it will help is a whole 'nother thing.  Neck sizing helps ... sometimes.  Floated barrels help ... sometimes.  Seating in the lands help ... sometimes.  But individual conditions change things.  

Weighing charges may help... but only IF the load is on the ragged edge of what will produce top accuracy.  And that optimum charge IS a range, not a single specific point, plus or minus nothing.    Etc.  

I do a lot of trivial "precision reloading" stuff because I enjoy doing it and I feel good about dong it but I know much of it has little or nothing to do with fine accuracy and I don't propose it as true for others.  No matter what I THINK, or what has actually worked for ME, if it isn't provable and repeatable for others then it's only a potentially helpful option, not a rule anyone else can depend on.  A myth.

I will take time to address two specific points from the above disagreements.

I defy anyone to "prove" the statements about "tighter die tolerances" (whatever that means, anyway) can be found in any brand of dies.  Dies are machine made and they have a SAAMI tolerance ranges, max diameter/length, vs. minimum and all our makers seem to stick to them.  Anything falling within that range is fully "in tolerace".  

So, I must ask my friendly dissenters, "On what side does a "tight tolerance" die go towards?"  Is it the Max (largest die chamber, cut with a new reamer)?  Or Min (smallest die chamber, cut with a worn and reshapened reamer)?  And, if it's assumed to be the smaller side of the tolerance range, how does that help with a rifle chamber that is cut on the larger side of a simular range of tolerances?   (Everyone should know there is no overlap between die chambers and firearms chambers. By SAAMI design, the largest die chamber is smaller than the tightest gun chamber.)   So, consider those questions and you will soon understand that the claim of "tight die tolerances" without including the firearm's chamber/fit, actually means nothing!  Meaning, the value of "tight tolerance dies", as such, is a myth.

Now, Hornady's sliding bullet seating chamber does ONE thing well; It makes sitting a bullet on top of a case easier.  The loosely fitted floating sleeve does nothing to align the whole case (as Forster and Redding's full chamber, spring loaded, sleeves do).  The  floating sleeve's inner fit to the bullet itself tends to be oversize - sloppy - as is its free-sliding fit within the die body.  Without some way to center the lower portion of a case, the limiting factor of the seating die's total alignment system becomes the press's elevated ram/shell holder, and that ain't precise! Therefore, good bullet alignment with that die is as much pure chance as any other conventional seating die.  

Basically, Hornady's floating bullet sleeve design is no more than a slightly modified copy of a method that goes back to at least the early 60s.  It was tried back then by several other companies, including Lyman, Vickerman and Herters, but got dropped because it added cost without any average gain in cartridge concentricity.  Still doesn't.  So, Hornady's sleeve seater is good but being "better", on average, is a myth.  And that's provable.

Some myths seem so clearly true and are so deeply engrained in our minds that they seem to have a life of their own!

Never once did I mention "fact". Drivel on...........