Are you in favor of nationalized health care?

[jeepmann1948]

If we the people of this great USA has to take on government mandated health care , it should apply to all with no regard to income level or position.All of the elected pundits up to and including Obama   should receive (or lack of ) the same care as the people that elected them.No better treatment for any of them.

[gypsyman]

In the '30's and '40's, the Nazis's had the gas ovens for the Jews,Catholics, and undisireable's. This will be the updated version, just for old people. Anybody that understands nature knows, all species go thru cycle's. There will be die off's do to disease,food supply, a couple others I forgot.(must be the aspartame!). This will just ease our population level down to a more ''managable'' level. gypsyman

[billy_56081]

Gypsyman I'm sure BHO's science czar will have a list of undesirables. I am sure a couple of the biggest socialist health care supporters we have here will be on that list.

[Badnews Bob]

NO I am not.

[Cement Man]

NO!

[Empty Quiver]

No thanks I'll muddle along with what I have.

[skarke]

Folks,

For me, with all due respect to everybody here (I really do repect everyones opinions), it is utterly pointless to discuss the process of development for new treatments/therapies in medicine today.  The level of information available to the general public about any manufacturing or research process is limited.  It isn't that, say, the recording industry, or the farm industry, or the gas production industry, plastics, software, aircraft, smokeless powder, guided missles, or any other widget manufactured exist as the result of some grand conspiracy, just becaause you and I don't fully understand the process.

As humans, we often begin to speculate, and assume inpropriety, when we don't understand something, or something seems wrong.  Usually, our speculation and assumptions are way off, though people find in comforting to accuse the big, bad boogie man/ industry.  Conspiracy theorists abound.

Fact, for instance: the oil companies average about 6 to 8 cents profit on every gallon of crude they produce in good times.  The government makes about 50 cents, even though the government spends nothing to explore, discover, drill, produce, distribute, and defend themselves against an uninformed public angry because they just don't understand the process.  Want cheaper oil?  Open the Alaskan North Slope, the western Gulf, the east and west coast of the US, shale and coal oil, or consider nuclear energy.

Why don't we do this?  You guessed it, our friends, the elected officials of the federal government.

I can tell you that I have watched the finest industry in the world for discovering new treatments be destroyed by, frankly, ignorance.  I have watched our company lay off 2/3rds of our staff, and am aware of a further 1/2 reduction planned in the remaining positions.  We just aren't going to expose ourselves, like Owens Corning was to silicone breast implant suits, by an uninformed public sold a bill of goods by greedy tort lawyers playing the lottery with American Manufacturing industry..

You make something?  Are you successful at it, and heaven forbid, are profitable?  Guess what.  It's only a matter of time before the attorneys come knocking.

FWIW, you owe it to yourselves to ask someone who works in an industry about what they do before you begin accusing them of wrongdoing.

[30-30man]

I can't say I want a total take over, but something needs to happen.  I'm on the state plan and lately I've seen where my out of pocket expenses are much greater than use to be to the point of me never meeting my deductible.  I have also found that those who don't think change is needed already have great benefits ex: VA...ETC. Do any of you realize how much private medical insurance really is for a family.  $1500 a month is not unusual.  Most families just can't afford it.

 I am sick and tired of everyone in the medical field saying the malpractice suits are the primary reason for the price of health care.  This is pure B?S.  My mother-in-law has had her life taken away from her because of Osmoprep. She was given this drug when she had her colon checked.  It was given to her to flush her kidneys.  Instead of flushing, it just shuts them down and damaged them to the point of her needing a transplant. This drug was approved and then quickly taken off the market because it shuts down kidney function in almost 1/2 of the people who took it.  The only reason it was allowed on the market was because of pure greed.  They knew it was a dangerous drug.  She is suing and I hope she succeeds, we need ways to keep the drug companies and doctors in check when these types of situations could have been avoided.

 There is nothing wrong with turning a profit, but profit making on the sick and unsuspecting patient is wrong. Why do hospitals have three prices on the same procedure based on what kind of insurance you have?  I discovered this just this past year when my wife was admitted.  They thought she was still under her old plan.  She was not and suddenly the prices were reduced greatly. There needs to be a balance.  I have never known a poor doctor or nurse for that matter.  Lawsuits are not the reason. It is the pure greed of the whole system from the doctors to the drug companies.  Healthcare is a service like education.  Where would we be if our teacheers started demanding $35,000 a month like our doctors?

[skarke]

To all,

I owe an apology.  I wrote my last post in haste, and a little bit angry.  I am sorry for my harsh words.  What upsets me is that so many have so much confusion about medicine, and furthermore, so much of this confusion is driven by sensationalist "newspeople" whose purpose is to sell advertizing space, not accurately reflect information.  I have watched several medical providers, manufacturers, hospitals, clinics, etc. with GOOD, HONEST, HARD WORKING people have their lives literally ripped apart by the effects of thoughtless legislative action.  There are always unintended consequences to our actions.  There is no question that excesses, waste, and yes, corruption exists in our industries, including medicine.  But, I believe that it is much less common, or severe, than the average person believes.

Medical manufacturers ethics standards are, by all accounts (including the government's), the most stringent and comprehensive of any industry.  That does not mean that there aren't problems.  There are.  I have witnessed them, and how different companies respond.

That said, humbly, calmly, and in a sympathetic voice to those who disagree, present the following:

1.  The average primary care doctor with 20 years experience makes about 140K.  This is after 13 years of education, including thousands of hours of residency for, basically, minimum wage.  I know a car salesman who makes more with a high school education.

2.  Drug development costs average $800 million now, and only one in three drugs that enter the market make a profit.

3.  Profit growth and profit margins for the pharmaceutical and medical industry in general are poorer than many other industries, and average mid single digits.  Frankly, an investor can make more money in muni bonds in many cases.

3.  Everybody is right, we definely need to do something.  It is a tragedy that so many people have been so decimated by  holes in our system.

4.  A healthy person in his 40s can get catostrophic insurance for his whole  family for <500 per month, with a couple of K deductible on the open market.  We have a huge issue with the unhealthy.  Here's where the govt can help with subsidies and pool type insurance.

The last thing that really upsets me is that so many people seem to afford brand new cars, big screen tvs, 500 dollar gas grills and other goodies, while complaining that they just "can't afford" health insurance.  My newest car is a 2005 Cobalt.  Next is a 99 F150, next is a 98 Suburban, precisely because I want to pay for my own insurance.  I also drive used cars so I dont have to borrow money from the banks.

Anyway, I digress.

My final thought, and I'll shut up.  Be careful who you empower.  A government powerful enough to provide for all our needs and desires is certainly powerful enough to take them away.

[lrs]

If this type of healthcare system, it would raise numerous ethical and standard of care issues.

Anyone remember Terry Schiavo?
Are these the people you want making your health care choices?

[teamnelson]

The last thing that really upsets me is that so many people seem to afford brand new cars, big screen tvs, 500 dollar gas grills and other goodies, while complaining that they just "can't afford" health insurance.

skarke, that's the elephant in the room isn't it? we're upset about government solving issues that in some part are self-induced. the economic issues ... blame the banks for issuing risky loans, but not the person who took out the loan who didn't have the money to cover it. That's like blaming a gun store for giving a gun to an idiot, who goes out and hurts someone with it.

Well I know lots of folks who don't have medical/dental insurance because they'd rather have a tattoo, LCD, brand new truck, jet ski, augmentation for the wife, ED treatment, etc. When the uninsured go to the ER (which costs more than just to a clinic) someone has to pay for that and it all rolls together into one fat sum, part of which came out of my grandfather's life savings which he left to his children who had to use it up to pay for their HC costs in the last few years of their lives. My generation won't have an inheritance to reach into when our savings runs out, and I lost half of it last year ... I count myself fortunate as many lost way more.

I wonder how big the HC problem would actually be if folks took it seriously.

[skarke]

TM7,

I've obviously touched several nerves, and for that, again, I apologize.  Everyone knows we need some changes, and you have many valid points.  We'll just have to agree to disagree in some areas.  I just hope that where we go isn't worse than where we are. 

We all want the same thing, quality healthcare for all.  Hopefully we'll get it, but I'm almost certain that rationing is coming, and that those of us approaching our 50s and 60s will be the ones left out.  Reference any other socialized system, and this is the case.

In one year, the federal budget has grown by 25%, BEFORE the addition of socialized medicine.  According to the CBO, we'll run TRILLIONS per year in the red for years to come.  The ONLY result is that the best of everything, including CABG, cancer treatment, orthopedic surgery, NICU, will be reserved, at least in a timely fashion where it'll do some good, for the elite.

Good bye low taxes, low inflation, and material abundance, and welcome to the world of the effects of governmental overspending demonstrated so perfectly by the Laffer Curve(the Law of diminishing returns on taxation and governmental spending).  We should be, and I am, extremely frightened.

Contrary to Keynes, you can't spend your way into prosperity, you can't borrow your way out of debt, and you can't get something for nothing.

[skarke]

TM7,

You are right, the "intermediaries" will be the ones making out like fat cats.  To this, we can both agree